Elecraft

Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

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john@kk9a.com

Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

Did you read W4TV's post on this subject?
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-April/255072.html

Edward McCann ag6cx1 wrote:

"But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed???Does that
negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis??"

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the "case" and the
"chassis".

Can you help?

Jim Brown's answer is also ambiguous to me.

He says, yes scrape and attach the V- rail to deal with your black wire if
you want to bond V-, but then says don't because the negative rail should
not be bonded to the chassis.

I quote below:

> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed?

Yes, IF you want to bond V-.

> ?Does that negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis?

No, and in general, it should NOT be bonded."

I also offer I might be out of touch with the subtleties of the concept, and
may be interpreting the comments incorrectly.

In any event, some clarification would be appreciated

What did you finally do? And did it work?

Thanks,

Ed McCann
AG6CX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 10, 2018, at 11:34 PM, elecraft-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>

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Edward McCann

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

Yes.

And I read he made no distinction between “case” and “chassis”, like the other respondents.

Or did you catch something I missed?

Much obliged for your prompt response.

73,

AG6CX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 15, 2018, at 6:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Did you read W4TV's post on this subject?
> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-April/255072.html
>
> Edward McCann ag6cx1 wrote:
>
>
>
> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed???Does that
> negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis??"
>
> I'm trying to figure out the difference between the "case" and the
> "chassis".
>
> Can you help?
>
> Jim Brown's answer is also ambiguous to me.
>
> He says, yes scrape and attach the V- rail to deal with your black wire if
> you want to bond V-, but then says don't because the negative rail should
> not be bonded to the chassis.
>
> I quote below:
>
>
>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed?
>
> Yes, IF you want to bond V-.
>
>> ?Does that negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis?
>
> No, and in general, it should NOT be bonded."
>
> I also offer I might be out of touch with the subtleties of the concept, and
> may be interpreting the comments incorrectly.
>
> In any event, some clarification would be appreciated
>
> What did you finally do? And did it work?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed McCann
> AG6CX
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 10, 2018, at 11:34 PM, elecraft-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>
>

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ke9uw

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.

Chuck Jack
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On Apr 15, 2018, at 8:58 PM, Edward McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes.
>
> And I read he made no distinction between “case” and “chassis”, like the other respondents.
>
> Or did you catch something I missed?
>
> Much obliged for your prompt response.
>
> 73,
>
> AG6CX
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 6:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Did you read W4TV's post on this subject?
>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-April/255072.html
>>
>> Edward McCann ag6cx1 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
>> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed???Does that
>> negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis??"
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out the difference between the "case" and the
>> "chassis".
>>
>> Can you help?
>>
>> Jim Brown's answer is also ambiguous to me.
>>
>> He says, yes scrape and attach the V- rail to deal with your black wire if
>> you want to bond V-, but then says don't because the negative rail should
>> not be bonded to the chassis.
>>
>> I quote below:
>>
>>
>>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
>> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed?
>>
>> Yes, IF you want to bond V-.
>>
>>> ?Does that negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis?
>>
>> No, and in general, it should NOT be bonded."
>>
>> I also offer I might be out of touch with the subtleties of the concept, and
>> may be interpreting the comments incorrectly.
>>
>> In any event, some clarification would be appreciated
>>
>> What did you finally do? And did it work?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed McCann
>> AG6CX
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2018, at 11:34 PM, elecraft-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Chuck, KE9UW

Edward McCann

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

Thanks for even more clarity, Chuck.
Ed McCann
AG6CX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 15, 2018, at 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>
> Chuck Jack
> KE9UW
>
> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>
>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 8:58 PM, Edward McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> And I read he made no distinction between “case” and “chassis”, like the other respondents.
>>
>> Or did you catch something I missed?
>>
>> Much obliged for your prompt response.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> AG6CX
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 6:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Did you read W4TV's post on this subject?
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-April/255072.html
>>>
>>> Edward McCann ag6cx1 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
>>> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed???Does that
>>> negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis??"
>>>
>>> I'm trying to figure out the difference between the "case" and the
>>> "chassis".
>>>
>>> Can you help?
>>>
>>> Jim Brown's answer is also ambiguous to me.
>>>
>>> He says, yes scrape and attach the V- rail to deal with your black wire if
>>> you want to bond V-, but then says don't because the negative rail should
>>> not be bonded to the chassis.
>>>
>>> I quote below:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
>>> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed?
>>>
>>> Yes, IF you want to bond V-.
>>>
>>>> ?Does that negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis?
>>>
>>> No, and in general, it should NOT be bonded."
>>>
>>> I also offer I might be out of touch with the subtleties of the concept, and
>>> may be interpreting the comments incorrectly.
>>>
>>> In any event, some clarification would be appreciated
>>>
>>> What did you finally do? And did it work?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ed McCann
>>> AG6CX
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Apr 10, 2018, at 11:34 PM, elecraft-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by ke9uw

On 2018-04-15 10:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the
> current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the
> power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire,
> the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
More importantly, if the "station ground" - the ground from the antenna
entry panel - is not bonded to the power entry ground, a lightning event
can be carried from the chassis of the power supply back through the
electrical system safety ground to the power entry *or vice versa*
depending on the location of the "strike".

This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and
all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning
event.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-04-15 10:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>
> Chuck Jack
> KE9UW
>
> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>
>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 8:58 PM, Edward McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> And I read he made no distinction between “case” and “chassis”, like the other respondents.
>>
>> Or did you catch something I missed?
>>
>> Much obliged for your prompt response.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> AG6CX
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 6:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Did you read W4TV's post on this subject?
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2018-April/255072.html
>>>
>>> Edward McCann ag6cx1 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
>>> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed???Does that
>>> negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis??"
>>>
>>> I'm trying to figure out the difference between the "case" and the
>>> "chassis".
>>>
>>> Can you help?
>>>
>>> Jim Brown's answer is also ambiguous to me.
>>>
>>> He says, yes scrape and attach the V- rail to deal with your black wire if
>>> you want to bond V-, but then says don't because the negative rail should
>>> not be bonded to the chassis.
>>>
>>> I quote below:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "But there is also a small black wire that bonds the V- terminal to the
>>> case. Should the paint around that screw also be removed?
>>>
>>> Yes, IF you want to bond V-.
>>>
>>>> ?Does that negative rail need to be bonded to the chassis?
>>>
>>> No, and in general, it should NOT be bonded."
>>>
>>> I also offer I might be out of touch with the subtleties of the concept, and
>>> may be interpreting the comments incorrectly.
>>>
>>> In any event, some clarification would be appreciated
>>>
>>> What did you finally do? And did it work?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ed McCann
>>> AG6CX
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Apr 10, 2018, at 11:34 PM, elecraft-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

"This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning event."

What is, disconnecting the wire or leaving it in place?
Your comment can be taken both ways.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 8:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

On 2018-04-15 10:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the
> current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the
> power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire,
> the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
More importantly, if the "station ground" - the ground from the antenna entry panel - is not bonded to the power entry ground, a lightning event can be carried from the chassis of the power supply back through the electrical system safety ground to the power entry *or vice versa* depending on the location of the "strike".

This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning event.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

Charlie,

That wire in the Astron PS has nothing to do with that statement. If
you read carefully, you will find it applies to the "station ground"
which may be a separately driven ground rod - which for your safety and
that of your family and pets as well as your equipment and also to
comply with NEC requirements, that separately driven ground rod MUST be
connected to the electrical entry ground rod by a #6 or larger copper wire.

If your shack ground rod does not comply, dig a trench for the wire and
make that connection outside the building.

The only exception is if the two ground rods are more than 100 feet apart.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/16/2018 8:38 AM, Charlie T wrote:

> "This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning event."
>
> What is, disconnecting the wire or leaving it in place?
> Your comment can be taken both ways.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 8:11 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply
>
> On 2018-04-15 10:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>> I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the
>> current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the
>> power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire,
>> the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
> More importantly, if the "station ground" - the ground from the antenna entry panel - is not bonded to the power entry ground, a lightning event can be carried from the chassis of the power supply back through the electrical system safety ground to the power entry *or vice versa* depending on the location of the "strike".
>
> This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning event.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

George Danner-2

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

Re-Connect it!

From a broadcaster (AM,FM & TV) was in South Florida (lightning capital of
North America).

The more massive the common (ground, bonding, whatever term you use) for the
connection between equipment and the power company ground connection the
better.
We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with ground
rods every 10' all cad-welded. This is probably over kill for a ham station;
but think as massive as you can.
Towers at 500' or above had 2 ring grounds and lots of ground rods.

The common for equipment interconnection is for safety first and the
reduction of voltage drops on the common lines that can transfer from one
piece of equipment to another (us old timers use the term ground loop - not
PC any more).

73 George AI4VZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie T

"This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and all
other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning event."

What is, disconnecting the wire or leaving it in place?
Your comment can be taken both ways.

73, Charlie k3ICH

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

On 2018-04-16 8:38 AM, Charlie T wrote:
> Your comment can be taken both ways.

What are you - a lawyer?

Connecting the station ground (bonding) and the entry ground to
the power system safety ground at other than the power meter
(power system entry point) greatly increases the chances for
damage. It is also (as nearly as I can tell and I am not a
lawyer) a violation of the National Electrical Code and most
local building codes (which incorporate NEC).

Consult an electrical contractor and/or code enforcement officer
to be sure, but my understanding of the rules are that the ground
conductor of all cables (e.g. coax shields, etc.) entering the home
must be bonded to the electrical system ground (at the electrical
entry). If the entry points are separated, all subsidiary entry
points must be bonded to the electrical system ground using a
large cable *external* to the building.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-04-16 8:38 AM, Charlie T wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by George Danner-2

On 2018-04-16 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:
> Re-Connect it!

DON'T CONNECT THAT WIRE BETWEEN V- AND CHASSIS CASE!

Unless you have a substantial *EXTERNAL GROUND CONNECTION*
between your station ground and the electrical system ground
rod, that connection between V- and chassis will bridge the
power system "safety" ground and the station grounding and
put your delicate and expensive equipment between two "grounds"
that can separate by many hundreds of volts in a lightning
event (or equipment failure).

> We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with
> ground rods every 10' all cad-welded.

That is proper grounding and bonds all entry points together *OUTSIDE*
the building to prevent grounds from separating. It creates a common
"island" for everything inside the building. However, for the majority
of amateur stations which fail to properly bond the shields of all of
the coaxial cables entering the shack to the electrical system ground
*at the meter*, there is no "island" ... more like an isthmus across
the equipment.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-04-16 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:

> Re-Connect it!
>
>> From a broadcaster (AM,FM & TV) was in South Florida (lightning
>> capital of
> North America).
>
> The more massive the common (ground, bonding, whatever term you use) for
> the connection between equipment and the power company ground connection
> the better.
> We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with
> ground rods every 10' all cad-welded. This is probably over kill for a
> ham station; but think as massive as you can.
> Towers at 500' or above had 2 ring grounds and lots of ground rods.
>
> The common for equipment interconnection is for safety first and the
> reduction of voltage drops on the common lines that can transfer from
> one piece of equipment to another (us old timers use the term ground
> loop - not PC any more).
>
> 73 George AI4VZ
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Charlie T
>
> "This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and
> all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning
> event."
>
> What is, disconnecting the wire or leaving it in place?
> Your comment can be taken both ways.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by George Danner-2

George,

I think you are talking about apples and oranges. Yes, a good ground
rod system is for lightning protection. I have a grounding system in
place at my house with a driven stake at each place where the perimeter
wire connecting them make a 45 degree turn or more. That is also
connected to the Utility Entry Ground rod.

If you are fighting audio noise, hum and buzz problems (now that we have
low level audio stuff in the hamshack) - disconnect that wire AND bond
all enclosures together as K9YC suggests.
We have the "pin 1" problem in modern ham gear. In olden days, it was
not a problem because connectors were mounted on the enclosure
metalwork, and any pickup of hum, buzz and noise was conducted on the
'outside' of the enclosure and away from thee signal lines on the inside.
Today's practice is to mount those connectors directly to a PC board
where any hum, buzz and noise will be conducted onto the PC board ground
plane where it will couple to the signal PC traces.

For purposes of hum, buzz and noise reduction, that Power Supply should
be cut and the enclosures in the system bonded directly together (not
each to a single point ground).

Remember that this bonding and grounding will NOT help with RF problems
- those are taken care of with good common mode chokes in the antenna
system to choke off current on the outside of the coax shields.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/16/2018 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:

Wes Stewart-2

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by ke9uw

I would hope that "much of the current..." wasn't really much. The direct
conductor from the negative terminal of the power supply to the radio should
carry the majority of the supply current,

Wes N7WS

On 4/15/2018 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>
> Chuck Jack
> KE9UW
>

______________________________________________________________
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ke9uw

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

About 75% went thru the ground path. The 10 ga to the rig went from Astron to a battery switching device in case of power outage, to rig runner and to rig. So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses. I’m thinking of changing some of that too. The voltage at the rig, K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100 Watts.

Chuck Jack
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would hope that "much of the current..." wasn't really much. The direct conductor from the negative terminal of the power supply to the radio should carry the majority of the supply current,
>
> Wes N7WS
>
>> On 4/15/2018 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>>
>> Chuck Jack
>> KE9UW
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Chuck, KE9UW

ke9uw

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

So the ground path was more direct it seems.

Chuck Jack
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:27 PM, hawley, charles j jr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> About 75% went thru the ground path. The 10 ga to the rig went from Astron to a battery switching device in case of power outage, to rig runner and to rig. So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses. I’m thinking of changing some of that too. The voltage at the rig, K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100 Watts.
>
> Chuck Jack
> KE9UW
>
> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>
>> On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would hope that "much of the current..." wasn't really much. The direct conductor from the negative terminal of the power supply to the radio should carry the majority of the supply current,
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>> On 4/15/2018 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>>> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>>>
>>> Chuck Jack
>>> KE9UW
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Chuck, KE9UW

Jim Brown-10

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe is right and George is WRONG. V- is NOT GROUND, it is the return
for DC power. Bonding V- to ground is a BAD idea -- that's why
virtually all pro-grade power supplies are built either without the bond
or so that the bond can easily be removed.

As to those who were confused by my advice -- I thought it was pretty
plain.

Quite a few posts back, I posted a link to a detailed discussion of this
on my website. I published this around 2010-12. I urge those who are
confused to study it.

http://k9yc.com/PowerSupplyBondingAndAudioDistortion.pdf

My detailed advice on station grounding and bonding is the link below.
Much of it has been incorporated in Ward Silver's recent ARRL book on
the topic, and is referenced in the book. You can buy the book from
ARRL, while the pdf on my website is free. :) Joe and Don are right on
in their understanding of the NEC, the fundamentals of which I have been
paid to teach to audio/video professionals in workshops at conventions.

http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

On 4/16/2018 7:06 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> On 2018-04-16 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:
> > Re-Connect it!
>
> DON'T CONNECT THAT WIRE BETWEEN V- AND CHASSIS CASE!
>
> Unless you have a substantial *EXTERNAL GROUND CONNECTION*
> between your station ground and the electrical system ground
> rod, that connection between V- and chassis will bridge the
> power system "safety" ground and the station grounding and
> put your delicate and expensive equipment between two "grounds"
> that can separate by many hundreds of volts in a lightning
> event (or equipment failure).
>
> > We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with
> > ground rods every 10' all cad-welded.
>
> That is proper grounding and bonds all entry points together *OUTSIDE*
> the building to prevent grounds from separating. It creates a common
> "island" for everything inside the building. However, for the majority
> of amateur stations which fail to properly bond the shields of all of
> the coaxial cables entering the shack to the electrical system ground
> *at the meter*, there is no "island" ... more like an isthmus across
> the equipment.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2018-04-16 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:
>> Re-Connect it!
>>
>>> From a broadcaster (AM,FM & TV) was in South Florida (lightning
>>> capital of
>> North America).
>>
>> The more massive the common (ground, bonding, whatever term you use)
>> for the connection between equipment and the power company ground
>> connection the better.
>> We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with
>> ground rods every 10' all cad-welded. This is probably over kill for
>> a ham station; but think as massive as you can.
>> Towers at 500' or above had 2 ring grounds and lots of ground rods.
>>
>> The common for equipment interconnection is for safety first and the
>> reduction of voltage drops on the common lines that can transfer from
>> one piece of equipment to another (us old timers use the term ground
>> loop - not PC any more).
>>
>> 73 George AI4VZ
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Charlie T
>>
>> "This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment
>> and all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a
>> lightning event."
>>
>> What is, disconnecting the wire or leaving it in place?
>> Your comment can be taken both ways.
>>
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by ke9uw

On 2018-04-16 4:26 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses.

Even if the power pole connectors are assembled perfectly and
mated with optimum tension, the resistance in just the four
(15 A) power pole connectors in the negative lead is equivalent
to nearly 40 feet of #12 copper wire!

> The voltage at the rig, K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100
> Watts.

With the equivalent of 50 feet of power cable (4 connectors plus a
10 foot physical cable), I would not be surprised. Assuming 20A
in transmit (on 15A power poles!), a 1V drop represents 0.05 Ohms
of total circuit losses .... that's pretty good for 10 feet (x2)
of cable plus eight connectors (4 in the + lead, 4 in the - lead)
and the switching device (probably a Schotkey diode). However,
the 0.05 Ohms in the negative lead is probably ten times higher
than in a braided bonding connection directly from the K3 chassis
to the power supply chassis.

I'm surprised that only 75% went through the ground path - that
indicates the ground path has 1/3 as much resistance as the "right"
(V- lead) path.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-04-16 4:26 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

> About 75% went thru the ground path. The 10 ga to the rig went from Astron to a battery switching device in case of power outage, to rig runner and to rig. So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses. I’m thinking of changing some of that too. The voltage at the rig, K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100 Watts.
>
> Chuck Jack
> KE9UW
>
> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>
>> On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would hope that "much of the current..." wasn't really much. The direct conductor from the negative terminal of the power supply to the radio should carry the majority of the supply current,
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>> On 4/15/2018 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>>> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>>>
>>> Chuck Jack
>>> KE9UW
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

On 4/16/2018 7:18 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> If you are fighting audio noise, hum and buzz problems (now that we
> have low level audio stuff in the hamshack) - disconnect that wire AND
> bond all enclosures together as K9YC suggests.

Clarification (because of the way the sentence is written) -- I DO
recommend proper bonding of EVERYTHING TO EVERYTHING,I do NOT recommend
disconnecting bonds in any part of the system for any reason.

73, Jim K9YC

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Using a fused Rigrunner to connect from the K3 to a power supply can
cause excessive voltage drop. There are 6 points of contact. The APP
contact to the rigrunner itself (2 contacts, the negative must be
considered as well). There are 2 at the fuse contacts, and there are 2
at the the cable connecting the output of the Rigrunner. Add an
additional 2 for the connection to the K3 - that makes a total of 8.
If you consider a 1mohm contact resistance (a practical estimate), then
you have an 0.008 ohm resistance between the power supply and the K3.
At 17 amps current draw for a K3 at 100 watts, the expected IR drop
with that configuration is 0.136 volts due to contact resistance alone.
Add to that the resistance of the wire (#12 wire at 20 degC of 1.558
ohms per 1000 ft.), you have an additional 3.116 milliohms resistance in
a 5 foot cable of #12 wire - for a total of over 1.0 volts from the #12
wire.

In other words, the total contact resistance of the 8 powerpole
connectors is not as great as the resistance of 5 feet of #12 wire.

Yes, connect the the K3/K3S directly to the power supply for best
results, but if you connect through a Rigrunner,, expect some added
voltage drop.

The voltage drop through properly assembled APP connectors is low but
not zero.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/16/2018 4:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> On 2018-04-16 4:26 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>> So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses.
>
> Even if the power pole connectors are assembled perfectly and
> mated with optimum tension, the resistance in just the four
> (15 A) power pole connectors in the negative lead is equivalent
> to nearly 40 feet of #12 copper wire!
>
>> The voltage at the rig, K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100
>> Watts.
>
> With the equivalent of 50 feet of power cable (4 connectors plus a
> 10 foot physical cable), I would not be surprised. Assuming 20A
> in transmit (on 15A power poles!), a 1V drop represents 0.05 Ohms
> of total circuit losses .... that's pretty good for 10 feet (x2)
> of cable plus eight connectors (4 in the + lead, 4 in the - lead)
> and the switching device (probably a Schotkey diode). However,
> the 0.05 Ohms in the negative lead is probably ten times higher
> than in a braided bonding connection directly from the K3 chassis
> to the power supply chassis.
>
> I'm surprised that only 75% went through the ground path - that
> indicates the ground path has 1/3 as much resistance as the "right"
> (V- lead) path.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2018-04-16 4:26 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>> About 75% went thru the ground path. The 10 ga to the rig went from
>> Astron to a battery switching device in case of power outage, to rig
>> runner and to rig. So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses.
>> I’m thinking of changing some of that too. The voltage at the rig, K3,
>> now drops a volt when putting out 100 Watts.
>>
>> Chuck Jack
>> KE9UW
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>>
>>> On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would hope that "much of the current..." wasn't really much. The
>>> direct conductor from the negative terminal of the power supply to
>>> the radio should carry the majority of the supply current,
>>>
>>> Wes N7WS
>>>
>>>> On 4/15/2018 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>>>> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a small
>>>> black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis. Perhaps
>>>> it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly, it’s what
>>>> the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I disconnected
>>>> the black wire. When it was connected, much of the current that
>>>> would have passed thru the negative power wire from the power supply
>>>> to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord wire, the ground
>>>> buss bar, and other ground connections.
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Jack
>>>> KE9UW
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

On 2018-04-16 7:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> In other words, the total contact resistance of the 8 powerpole
> connectors is not as great as the resistance of 5 feet of #12 wire.

Not according to the specifications.

The specification for contact resistance of a 15A Power Pole is
0.875 milliOhms
<https://powerwerx.azureedge.net/productattachments/ds-pp1545.pdf>

The resistance of *one* 15A Power Pole connector (0.875 milliOhms)
is equivalent to 5.5 feet ( 5.5 * 1.588 / 1000 = 0.873 milliOhms) of
#12 wire.

A 10 foot #12 power cable with 15A PP connectors on both ends would
have a total loop resistance of 6.68 milliOhms (4 * 0.875 for the
connectors + 2 * 1.588 for the wire) - split almost equally between
the wire and the connectors.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-04-16 7:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Using a fused Rigrunner to connect from the K3 to a power supply can
> cause excessive voltage drop. There are 6 points of contact. The APP
> contact to the rigrunner itself (2 contacts, the negative must be
> considered as well). There are 2 at the fuse contacts, and there are 2
> at the the cable connecting the output of the Rigrunner. Add an
> additional 2 for the connection to the K3 - that makes a total of 8.
> If you consider a 1mohm contact resistance (a practical estimate), then
> you have an 0.008 ohm resistance between the power supply and the K3.
> At 17 amps current draw for a K3 at 100 watts, the expected IR drop
> with that configuration is 0.136 volts due to contact resistance alone.
> Add to that the resistance of the wire (#12 wire at 20 degC of 1.558
> ohms per 1000 ft.), you have an additional 3.116 milliohms resistance in
> a 5 foot cable of #12 wire - for a total of over 1.0 volts from the #12
> wire.
>
> In other words, the total contact resistance of the 8 powerpole
> connectors is not as great as the resistance of 5 feet of #12 wire.
>
> Yes, connect the the K3/K3S directly to the power supply for best
> results, but if you connect through a Rigrunner,, expect some added
> voltage drop.
>
> The voltage drop through properly assembled APP connectors is low but
> not zero.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/16/2018 4:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> On 2018-04-16 4:26 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>>> So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses.
>>
>> Even if the power pole connectors are assembled perfectly and
>> mated with optimum tension, the resistance in just the four
>> (15 A) power pole connectors in the negative lead is equivalent
>> to nearly 40 feet of #12 copper wire!
>>
>>> The voltage at the rig, K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100
>>> Watts.
>>
>> With the equivalent of 50 feet of power cable (4 connectors plus a
>> 10 foot physical cable), I would not be surprised. Assuming 20A
>> in transmit (on 15A power poles!), a 1V drop represents 0.05 Ohms
>> of total circuit losses .... that's pretty good for 10 feet (x2)
>> of cable plus eight connectors (4 in the + lead, 4 in the - lead)
>> and the switching device (probably a Schotkey diode). However,
>> the 0.05 Ohms in the negative lead is probably ten times higher
>> than in a braided bonding connection directly from the K3 chassis
>> to the power supply chassis.
>>
>> I'm surprised that only 75% went through the ground path - that
>> indicates the ground path has 1/3 as much resistance as the "right"
>> (V- lead) path.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 2018-04-16 4:26 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>>> About 75% went thru the ground path. The 10 ga to the rig went from
>>> Astron to a battery switching device in case of power outage, to rig
>>> runner and to rig. So 4 sets of power pole connectors plus 2 fuses.
>>> I’m thinking of changing some of that too. The voltage at the rig,
>>> K3, now drops a volt when putting out 100 Watts.
>>>
>>> Chuck Jack
>>> KE9UW
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone, cjack
>>>
>>>> On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would hope that "much of the current..." wasn't really much. The
>>>> direct conductor from the negative terminal of the power supply to
>>>> the radio should carry the majority of the supply current,
>>>>
>>>> Wes N7WS
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/15/2018 7:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>>>>> This thread prompted me to check out my Astron vs35m. It had a
>>>>> small black wire from -V connected to the bottom of the chassis.
>>>>> Perhaps it could be called a case or cabinet...more importantly,
>>>>> it’s what the green wire from the line cord is connected to. I
>>>>> disconnected the black wire. When it was connected, much of the
>>>>> current that would have passed thru the negative power wire from
>>>>> the power supply to the rig was shunted thru the green power cord
>>>>> wire, the ground buss bar, and other ground connections.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck Jack
>>>>> KE9UW
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Issue 12 re Astron Power Supply

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

But I keep coming back to this: almost every device connected to the power supply has V- connected to ground internally. So if you have, say, a keyer and a transceiver running off the same supply, won’t some of the transceiver’s current flow through the V- line to the keyer, to the case of the keyer via the internal connection, to the station bonding, to the transceiver case and thence to the transceiver V- input?

In short, don’t the accessories fed from the same PS as the transceiver do exactly the same thing as the notorious black wire in the Astron?

Vic 4X6GP

> On 16 Apr 2018, at 23:50, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Joe is right and George is WRONG. V- is NOT GROUND, it is the return for DC power. Bonding V- to ground is a BAD idea -- that's why virtually all pro-grade power supplies are built either without the bond or so that the bond can easily be removed.
>
> As to those who were confused by my advice -- I thought it was pretty plain.
>
> Quite a few posts back, I posted a link to a detailed discussion of this on my website. I published this around 2010-12. I urge those who are confused to study it.
>
> http://k9yc.com/PowerSupplyBondingAndAudioDistortion.pdf
>
> My detailed advice on station grounding and bonding is the link below. Much of it has been incorporated in Ward Silver's recent ARRL book on the topic, and is referenced in the book. You can buy the book from ARRL, while the pdf on my website is free. :) Joe and Don are right on in their understanding of the NEC, the fundamentals of which I have been paid to teach to audio/video professionals in workshops at conventions.
>
> http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>> On 4/16/2018 7:06 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>> On 2018-04-16 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:
>> > Re-Connect it!
>>
>> DON'T CONNECT THAT WIRE BETWEEN V- AND CHASSIS CASE!
>>
>> Unless you have a substantial *EXTERNAL GROUND CONNECTION*
>> between your station ground and the electrical system ground
>> rod, that connection between V- and chassis will bridge the
>> power system "safety" ground and the station grounding and
>> put your delicate and expensive equipment between two "grounds"
>> that can separate by many hundreds of volts in a lightning
>> event (or equipment failure).
>>
>> > We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with
>> > ground rods every 10' all cad-welded.
>>
>> That is proper grounding and bonds all entry points together *OUTSIDE*
>> the building to prevent grounds from separating. It creates a common
>> "island" for everything inside the building. However, for the majority
>> of amateur stations which fail to properly bond the shields of all of
>> the coaxial cables entering the shack to the electrical system ground
>> *at the meter*, there is no "island" ... more like an isthmus across
>> the equipment.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>>> On 2018-04-16 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:
>>> Re-Connect it!
>>>
>>>> From a broadcaster (AM,FM & TV) was in South Florida (lightning capital of
>>> North America).
>>>
>>> The more massive the common (ground, bonding, whatever term you use) for the connection between equipment and the power company ground connection the better.
>>> We even used ring grounds around studio & transmitter building with ground rods every 10' all cad-welded. This is probably over kill for a ham station; but think as massive as you can.
>>> Towers at 500' or above had 2 ring grounds and lots of ground rods.
>>>
>>> The common for equipment interconnection is for safety first and the reduction of voltage drops on the common lines that can transfer from one piece of equipment to another (us old timers use the term ground loop - not PC any more).
>>>
>>> 73 George AI4VZ
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Charlie T
>>>
>>> "This greatly increases the chances for damages to station equipment and all other electronic equipment in the household in event of a lightning event."
>>>
>>> What is, disconnecting the wire or leaving it in place?
>>> Your comment can be taken both ways.
>>>
>>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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