Elecraft

K-2 100 Tuner question

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W2xj

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

Times have changed. 3D printing permits one off runs with little effort after the initial design.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Have to agree, in principle, with Don.
>
> Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have.
> I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project of twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs.
>
> So I chose a good quality commercial chassis from Hammond and built an aluminum jig to hold it in a vise for drilling. Square holes required hand filing. Stick-on labeling. I used a pcb made by a reputable small production house (W6PQL). Those that bought the 80w 2m amp got a pretty good product but no confusion that it was hand made. Costs were hard to get competitive with commercial amp mfrs but I think the reliability might have been better.
>
> You would have to survey my customers who all read this list and most have Elecraft radios that were used with the amp (majority had the KX3-2M).
>
> I had an opportunity to buy out a popular line of transverters and recently a popular preamp maker. Cost/labor time were decisive against them (mostly at my age). Had a hard time convincing my self that working for under $10/hour was a good deal. Each amp took about 18 hours each and my net was under $100. So I considered it learning experience and labor of "love".
>
> In manufacturing there is a concept called "economy of scale" which Wayne and Eric are probably very conversant.
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> Dubus-NA Business mail:
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

"after initial design", and "one off run" is key here.

When you are a doing it as a hobby, you may not count the cost of that
design element. For a manufacturer, it means a lot more that getting a
part in-hand. Engineering prototypes are one thing, getting a product
out for production sales is entirely a different matter.

If you are a manufacturer, there is a big difference. You have to count
the cost of Engineering Change Orders, vendor negotiations, re-designs
to meet the requirements of the particular vendor you are dealing with,
and finally creating a Bill of Materials and stocking and inventorying
the product, and creating sales data (even if it is a re-vamped product).
In other words, all the relevant pieces of your organization have to
have the information needed to work in lockstep with each other.
And most of that effort is in-house and takes up much of the staff
resources.

A one or 2 person shop can do it more quickly and easily, but in a
manufacturing evironment, all the "T"s must be crossed and the "i"s
dotted if you are going to succeed with a product that is only a small
piece of your product line.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/23/2018 11:19 AM, W2xj wrote:

> Times have changed. 3D printing permits one off runs with little effort after the initial design.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Have to agree, in principle, with Don.
>>
>> Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have.
>> I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project of twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs.
>>

W2xj

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

You are distorting this way out of proportion. While you may be describing the 20th century method for large scale manufacturing, it has little to do with today’s technology. To begin with, Elecraft is a small low volume operation. I doubt they go through all the processes you describe. In any event the discussion began being about a relatively small case that was low volume in the first place. They could put the existing drawings on line and let the ham community take it from there.

On a vastly larger scale, the auto industry is moving towards 3D printing parts on site and cutting out all those middle men (along with import and tariff hassles).

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "after initial design", and "one off run" is key here.
>
> When you are a doing it as a hobby, you may not count the cost of that design element. For a manufacturer, it means a lot more that getting a part in-hand. Engineering prototypes are one thing, getting a product out for production sales is entirely a different matter.
>
> If you are a manufacturer, there is a big difference. You have to count the cost of Engineering Change Orders, vendor negotiations, re-designs to meet the requirements of the particular vendor you are dealing with, and finally creating a Bill of Materials and stocking and inventorying the product, and creating sales data (even if it is a re-vamped product).
> In other words, all the relevant pieces of your organization have to have the information needed to work in lockstep with each other.
> And most of that effort is in-house and takes up much of the staff resources.
>
> A one or 2 person shop can do it more quickly and easily, but in a manufacturing evironment, all the "T"s must be crossed and the "i"s dotted if you are going to succeed with a product that is only a small piece of your product line.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 12/23/2018 11:19 AM, W2xj wrote:
>> Times have changed. 3D printing permits one off runs with little effort after the initial design.
>> Sent from my iPad
>>> On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Have to agree, in principle, with Don.
>>>
>>> Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have.
>>> I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project of twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs.
>>>
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>

ke9uw

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

In reply to this post by W2xj

I’m actually having difficulty imagining using a 3D printer to make a good looking smooth sheet metal cabinet.
Examples?

Chuck
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On Dec 22, 2018, at 10:24 PM, W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well no. That $5k could be spread over all the metalwork and greatly reduce inventory.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 20:11, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per enclosure.
>> Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the EC2.
>>
>> It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items.
>> Enough said.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote:
>>> You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Josh,
>>>>
>>>> I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be prohibited.
>>>> Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a full schedule already can be costly.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:
>>>>> Hi Don,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication.
>>>>>
>>>>> Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Please help support this em
>
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Chuck, KE9UW

Bill Frantz

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

In reply to this post by W2xj

My conversations with a senior manager for a company that makes
components for auto manufacturers is that, while 3D printing is
widely used for small runs of prototypes, traditional tooling
still rules for production.

In answer to Ed, KL7UW's comments about his amp, I'm quite
satisfied with mine. I didn't notice any real problems with the
holes in chassis.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 12/22/18 at 7:38 PM, [hidden email] (W2xj) wrote:

>You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on
>an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going.

On 12/23/18 at 8:00 AM, [hidden email] (Edward R Cole) wrote:

>So I chose a good quality commercial chassis from Hammond and
>built an aluminum jig to hold it in a vise for drilling.
>Square holes required hand filing. Stick-on labeling. I used
>a pcb made by a reputable small production house (W6PQL).
>Those that bought the 80w 2m amp got a pretty good product but
>no confusion that it was hand made. Costs were hard to get
>competitive with commercial amp mfrs but I think the
>reliability might have been better.
>
>You would have to survey my customers who all read this list
>and most have Elecraft radios that were used with the amp
>(majority had the KX3-2M).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | I don't have high-speed | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | internet. I have DSL. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Neil Zampella

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

In reply to this post by Josh Fiden

You know, the point is moot. I would assume that Wayne & Eric looked
at getting a replacement vendor, but then after getting bids based on
the sales history of the EC2, they determined that it would not be
feasible at the price point they wanted to sell them at.

Now, it would be great if they could release a PDF of the engineering
drawings of the EC2, so that those who wanted to create a KAT100-2 could
still do that.

Neil, KN3iLZ

On 12/22/2018 11:42 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:

> To the original point, there is no difficulty finding a different vendor, there are no tooling costs, and producing parts in small quantity is not cost prohibitive.
>
> Some people need to be right. Others want the right answer. Only the latter is of interest.
>
> Enough said.
>
> 73,
> Josh W6XU
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per enclosure.
>> Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the EC2.
>>
>> It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items.
>> Enough said.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote:
>>> You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Josh,
>>>>
>>>> I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be prohibited.
>>>> Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a full schedule already can be costly.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:
>>>>> Hi Don,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication.
>>>>>
>>>>> Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

i tend to think you’re right. If Elecraft has determined that it isn’t economical for them to continue to produce the EC2, then perhaps we shouldn’t be giving side eye about what it costs to laser cut a piece of metal at even a mom and pot shop. Sure .. maybe that’s cheap, but there’s a good deal more that goes into producing an actual market-ready finished product. I could list quite a few additional steps besides metal cutting … but that wouldn’t prove much. Any more that arguing that laser cutting metal is cheap … unless you’d like to have raw laser cut metal as a cabinet for a radio …

K3 #2091 KX3 #8342

> On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:45 PM, Neil Zampella <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You know, the point is moot. I would assume that Wayne & Eric looked at getting a replacement vendor, but then after getting bids based on the sales history of the EC2, they determined that it would not be feasible at the price point they wanted to sell them at.
>

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Gary-5

Re: K2 100 Tuner question

In reply to this post by Neil Zampella

You don't need the drawings. If someone would scan the existing case and share the scans it is simple to print.

I don't know what kind of copyright and/or patent issues that creates.

73,
Joe kk0sd

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Neil Zampella
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 7:45 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question

You know, the point is moot. I would assume that Wayne & Eric looked at getting a replacement vendor, but then after getting bids based on the sales history of the EC2, they determined that it would not be feasible at the price point they wanted to sell them at.

Now, it would be great if they could release a PDF of the engineering drawings of the EC2, so that those who wanted to create a KAT100-2 could still do that.

Neil, KN3iLZ

On 12/22/2018 11:42 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:

---
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