K2/100 power-out change
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Hi, all concerned:
I have two K2/100's (34XX and 37XX) which have 40M c-w-mode power-out variations at a rate of about once a second. For example, if I set 40W out, they will alternate from 35 to 40W. It happens on a dummy load, into an antenna, and makes driving an amp interesting ;o) Haven't tried other bands or modes. Anyone else out there notice this? TIA & kind regards, Dave, N3HE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over
the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the response I got was that is "normal". Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J Windisch" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > Hi, all concerned: > > I have two K2/100's (34XX and 37XX) which have 40M c-w-mode power-out > variations at a rate of about once a second. For example, if I set 40W > out, > they will alternate from 35 to 40W. It happens on a dummy load, into an > antenna, and makes driving an amp interesting ;o) > > Haven't tried other bands or modes. > > Anyone else out there notice this? > > TIA & kind regards, > > Dave, N3HE > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Rich McCabe wrote:
> Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all > over the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, > the response I got was that is "normal". See <http://www.elecraft.com/Apps/Power_Control_Mod.html> -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Rich McCabe
Interestingly, my TS850S does this too... it's a well known bug in the TS850. The Kenwood problem is in the ALC circuitry, new rigs don't do this... it develops over time.
I'm not familiar with the K2 circuit, but it sounds like it could be a decoupling problem. Larry N8LP ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich McCabe To: Elecraft Reflector Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the response I got was that is "normal". Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J Windisch" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > Hi, all concerned: > > I have two K2/100's (34XX and 37XX) which have 40M c-w-mode power-out > variations at a rate of about once a second. For example, if I set 40W > out, > they will alternate from 35 to 40W. It happens on a dummy load, into an > antenna, and makes driving an amp interesting ;o) > > Haven't tried other bands or modes. > > Anyone else out there notice this? > > TIA & kind regards, > > Dave, N3HE > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/21/2004 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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It IS in the software ALC... reflects the ALC's attempting (at about a
1-seconds rate) to 'stabilize the output at the requested power level... Seems I recall there being a fairly simply remedy to this problem... at least to remedy MOST, if not all, of it. If I recall, it was the addition of a cap somewhere, but (unfortunately) I don't recall where. Double check the archives, or maybe someone will offer it up. 73, Tom Hammond N0SS At 10:45 AM 9/22/04, Larry Phipps wrote: >Interestingly, my TS850S does this too... it's a well known bug in the >TS850. The Kenwood problem is in the ALC circuitry, new rigs don't do >this... it develops over time. > >I'm not familiar with the K2 circuit, but it sounds like it could be a >decoupling problem. > >Larry N8LP > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Rich McCabe >To: Elecraft Reflector >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:23 AM >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > > >Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over >the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the >response I got was that is "normal". > >Rich > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David J Windisch" <[hidden email]> >To: <[hidden email]> >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:17 AM >Subject: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > > > > Hi, all concerned: > > > > I have two K2/100's (34XX and 37XX) which have 40M c-w-mode power-out > > variations at a rate of about once a second. For example, if I set 40W > > out, > > they will alternate from 35 to 40W. It happens on a dummy load, into an > > antenna, and makes driving an amp interesting ;o) > > > > Haven't tried other bands or modes. > > > > Anyone else out there notice this? > > > > TIA & kind regards, > > > > Dave, N3HE > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: [hidden email] > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/21/2004 >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Rich McCabe
Rich, Dave, and all,
This is 'usual' behavior for the K2 - it seems the power shifts by about 5 watts in high power mode. It is present, but not noticable in low power mode because the shift is only about half a watt which is a smaller percentage of the power setting. Checking the schematic, it seems this is controlled by the VPWR signal which is an output from the 8 bit DAC. It would seem to me that each DAC step should be about 0.5 watts (128 watts/256 steps), so even with a DAC uncertainty of +/- 1, the power should vary by only 1.5 watts assuming that the DAC input value is held constant (I don't think that is possible). My guess is that there is an additional uncertainty in the firmware calculation of the power to be transmitted that causes the remaining part of the variation. The present region of uncertainty appears to be +/- 5 DAC steps if my math is anywhere close to correct. Perhaps Wayne can comment and tell us if the firmware loop can be tightened a bit to reduce this power varaiation. I don't drive an amplifier, but for someone who is driving an amp with say 50 watts from the KPA100, the real varaiation is 10% and for a 1500 watt amp, the final output variation is about 150 watts!!! I really can't see this as a problem in actual operating practice (there is little difference in transmitted signal between 1350 watts and 1500 watts), but it can make meters 'dance' which may be quite disconcerting. 73, Don W3FPR ----- Original Message ----- > Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over > the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the > response I got was that is "normal". > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-3
It is covered in the K2 Manual Troubleshooting section "160 Power output
fluctuates." ... as well as the place that Vic mentioned. 73, Ken K3IU ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Hammond Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:31 PM To: Larry Phipps; Rich McCabe; Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change It IS in the software ALC... reflects the ALC's attempting (at about a 1-seconds rate) to 'stabilize the output at the requested power level... Seems I recall there being a fairly simply remedy to this problem... at least to remedy MOST, if not all, of it. If I recall, it was the addition of a cap somewhere, but (unfortunately) I don't recall where. Double check the archives, or maybe someone will offer it up. 73, Tom Hammond N0SS At 10:45 AM 9/22/04, Larry Phipps wrote: >Interestingly, my TS850S does this too... it's a well known bug in the >TS850. The Kenwood problem is in the ALC circuitry, new rigs don't do >this... it develops over time. > >I'm not familiar with the K2 circuit, but it sounds like it could be a >decoupling problem. > >Larry N8LP > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Rich McCabe >To: Elecraft Reflector >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:23 AM >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > > >Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over >the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the >response I got was that is "normal". > >Rich > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David J Windisch" <[hidden email]> >To: <[hidden email]> >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:17 AM >Subject: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > > > > Hi, all concerned: > > > > I have two K2/100's (34XX and 37XX) which have 40M c-w-mode power-out > > variations at a rate of about once a second. For example, if I set 40W > > out, > > they will alternate from 35 to 40W. It happens on a dummy load, into > > antenna, and makes driving an amp interesting ;o) > > > > Haven't tried other bands or modes. > > > > Anyone else out there notice this? > > > > TIA & kind regards, > > > > Dave, N3HE > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: [hidden email] > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/21/2004 >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Rich McCabe
G'day,
> Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over > the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the > response I got was that is "normal". If this is the often reported O/P power change then yes this is "normal", however, it shouldn't be. The problem is really only apparent when the KPA100 is installed so QRP ops will not notice it. The cure is the change in value of one resistor in the ALC loop. I'm not near any documentation so I can't tell you the resistor designation. There is a test procedure on the Elecraft web site to optimise the value but I believe in most case just changing the value to 1k-1.2k ohms does the trick. Just make sure you have at least 10W output on 10 metres before you do it. I'm surprised that at this stage of product maturity the problem still exists in new kits. Regards, Mike VP8NO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-3
OK Folks,
I found the info that Tom was referring to - it is in a reflector posting from Wayne Burdick dated 8/5/1999. I have appended the text to the bottom of this reply. 73, Don W3FPR ----- Original Message ----- > It IS in the software ALC... reflects the ALC's attempting (at about a > 1-seconds rate) to 'stabilize the output at the requested power level... > > Seems I recall there being a fairly simply remedy to this problem... at > least to remedy MOST, if not all, of it. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 8/5/1999 post by Wayne Burdick: THIS APPLIES TO ALL K2s. Background ---------- When pressing TUNE, the power displayed typically varies over a range of about +/- 0.5 W at the 5 W level. The actual variance depends on power level, band, load, and supply voltage. The varieance is generally wider on 40 and 30 meters. There are two reasons for the power not staying at exactly the level you specify. First, some heating of the final transistors occurs that may cause power to drift upwards a small amount during TUNE; this is normal. Second, power is controlled by an 8-bit D-to-A converter, which has limited resolution. In other words, each DAC step may translate to as much as a few tenths of a watt on some bands at 5W. This small variance in TUNE power level is not significant in terms of actual radiated signal. The difference between 4.5 W and 5 W, for example, is less than 0.5 dB. However, it may be possible on a particular K2 to reduce the variance with a simple component change. What to do ---------- NOTE: This change is completely OPTIONAL! It may result in a reduction of the maximum power that you can put out on the higest bands, especially under high-SWR conditions. 1. Test TUNE at 5 W working into a 50-ohm dummy load on 40 m. If pressing TUNE repeatedly results in a power output reasonably close to 5 W each time, there's no need to do anything. 2. If you have a Field-test K2 (S/N 1-100), the next step is to replace R99 on the RF board with 270 ohms (if you haven't already done so). This resistor was 470 ohms on the field-test units. 3. Temporarily insert a 1K potentiometer at R98 (use leads of 1" or less). Set the pot to mid-range (500 ohms). 4. Switch to 10 meters and set power for 10 W (or your desired maximum power output on 10 meters). 5. Your goal is to find the largest value of R98 (up to 1 K) that allows for the desired maximum power output on 10 meters using TUNE. Try various R98 settings until you find this value. 6. Once you've found the highest usable value for R98, switch back to 40 m and see if this has improved power-setting resolution using TUNE at 2 W, 5 W, etc. 7. Replace the pot at R98 with a fixed resistor. Use a standard resistance value that is equal to or lower than your final pot value. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
I did not try this on my newest 44xx K2, but tried this on the 38xx and it
made no difference whatsoever. It is most noticable in tune. More of an annoyance than a problem. Rich > > See <http://www.elecraft.com/Apps/Power_Control_Mod.html> > > -- > 73, > Vic, K2VCO > Fresno CA > http://www.qsl.net/k2vco > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic Rosenthal" <[hidden email]> To: "Rich McCabe" <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > Rich McCabe wrote: > >> Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all >> over the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, >> the response I got was that is "normal". _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
Rich,
Further to my earlier posting. The resistor to change is R98 on the RF board. I have changed mine from 270 ohms to 1200 ohms and that completely removed the power hunting. Without doing this it is almost impossible to properly set up the KAT100 if you build one. Regards, Mike VP8NO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N8LP
My TS-850 began doing this. It started as just a small variation and
then finally got to be a steady pulsing. The ALC reading was synchronized with it. Finally dropped the radio off at Kenwood when I was in So Cal for the Cactus Intertie meeting. Got it back within a week (obviously they knew what to do ... the "what we fixed" memo and old parts that came with it indicated it was in the ALC circuitry), and it's been just fine ever since. I'm in the final stretch of finishing K2 4398 (LP CW only) and intend to have it with me at N6A during the Cal QSO Party from Alpine County, the "If you want this county in your log, we're the it" county (pop ~1,500 and no active hams). We'll be running more than 10W during the contest! 73, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98 Larry Phipps wrote: > > Interestingly, my TS850S does this too... it's a well known bug in the TS850. The Kenwood problem is in the ALC circuitry, new rigs don't do this... it develops over time. > > I'm not familiar with the K2 circuit, but it sounds like it could be a decoupling problem. > > Larry N8LP > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rich McCabe > To: Elecraft Reflector > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > > Sounds like both K2's I have had. 38xx and 44xx. The output jumps all over > the place. My amp does not like it either. When I posted about it, the > response I got was that is "normal". > > Rich > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David J Windisch" <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:17 AM > Subject: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > > > Hi, all concerned: > > > > I have two K2/100's (34XX and 37XX) which have 40M c-w-mode power-out > > variations at a rate of about once a second. For example, if I set 40W > > out, > > they will alternate from 35 to 40W. It happens on a dummy load, into an > > antenna, and makes driving an amp interesting ;o) > > > > Haven't tried other bands or modes. > > > > Anyone else out there notice this? > > > > TIA & kind regards, > > > > Dave, N3HE > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: [hidden email] > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/21/2004 > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9
On my first K2 I soldered in a 10 turn 1k pot so did not go as high as 1200.
Have not tried it on the second K2, but will probably give it a try this weekend. Funny you would mention the KAT100. Built one last night and building another this weekend. The CAL went OK on this one. For those interested in the AT, it is a blast to build and looks/works awesome. Took about 6 1/2 hours including making cables. Piece of cake :) Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Harris" <[hidden email]> To: "Rich McCabe" <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 power-out change > Rich, > > Further to my earlier posting. The resistor to change is R98 on the RF > board. I have changed mine from 270 ohms to 1200 ohms and that completely > removed the power hunting. > > Without doing this it is almost impossible to properly set up the KAT100 > if you build one. > > Regards, > > Mike VP8NO > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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