K2 Glitch on Field Day

[Wolfgang, Larry, WR1B]

I've seen a couple of posts about folks having some interesting
"problems" with their K2s on Field Day. I also had an "event," and
wonder if anyone else has seen this problem before.

After operating most of Saturday afternoon, I turned off my K2/100
around 6 to break for supper. Since my wife had invited her brothers and
sisters for a picnic, it was around 8 when I turned my radio on again.
When I transmitted to answer a CQ FD, I saw the display show "PA HOT"
and no apparent output power. I cycled the radio off and on again, but
got the same message when I tried to transmit. The correct antenna input
was selected, but the KAT100 wouldn't tune. When I pressed the Tune
button it just displayed 20 and 1:1. I tried both CW and SSB with the
same result. I tried switching from 20 m to 40 m with the same result. I
turned off the radio again and went to visit with my cousin and her
husband for another hour or so. When I came back, I even tried
connecting my ac power supply to see if the battery voltage was dropping
too low for some reason. The PA HOT message came on each time I tried to
transmit. Finally I tried reducing power to below 10 W. Now the tuner
would work, and I could transmit, but going above 10 W gave the PA HOT
message again. I finally brought the radio and tuner inside for the
night and gave up.

Sunday morning I set the radio up again, and this time everything was
fine. No problems, full power, CW and SSB, everything worked fine for
the rest of Field Day!

Any ideas on what may have been going on? There were no storms, the air
was dry, the temperature was a bit cool, dropping into the low 60s. For
anyone who worked WB3IOS 1B EPA, thanks for the contact!

73,

Larry Wolfgang, WR1B
 
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Larry,

In the past, I have seen several reports of the erroneous PA HOT message
behavior - it seems to me that it typically happens during a portable
operating situation - perhaps caused by some mysterious power glitch or
something like that.  I really don't know the reason behind this loss of
the setting.

An additional thought is that it may be caused by operating the KPA100
with strong direct sunlight beaming onto the KPA100 heatsink - the black
surface will absorb heat (just the same way as it dissipates it) and
could cause the heatsink to actually overheat from the sunlight.  The
physics of a 'black body radiator' are what is involved here - it will
absorb heat just as easily as it radiates heat.

In any case, what has happened is that the menu entry for 'CAL tPA' may
been lost (it usually goes to 255).  The solution is to re-enter the
proper value for that menu item.  The 'real' setting is the actual
temperature (in degrees C) of the PA transistor case (or the heat sink
next to the PA transistors) - so if you have a good temperature
indicating meter, you can set it no matter what the temperature may be.

For those folks without such a temperature meter, the easiest way is to
let the K2/100 acclimate to the ambient temperature (idle for a couple
hours) then look at a normal thermometer and read the temperature
(convert to deg. C if the reading is in deg. F) and enter that value
into the CAL tPA menu parameter.

73,
Don W3FPR

Wolfgang, Larry, WR1B wrote:

> I've seen a couple of posts about folks having some interesting
> "problems" with their K2s on Field Day. I also had an "event," and
> wonder if anyone else has seen this problem before.
>
> After operating most of Saturday afternoon, I turned off my K2/100
> around 6 to break for supper. Since my wife had invited her brothers and
> sisters for a picnic, it was around 8 when I turned my radio on again.
> When I transmitted to answer a CQ FD, I saw the display show "PA HOT"
> and no apparent output power. I cycled the radio off and on again, but
> got the same message when I tried to transmit. The correct antenna input
> was selected, but the KAT100 wouldn't tune. When I pressed the Tune
> button it just displayed 20 and 1:1. I tried both CW and SSB with the
> same result. I tried switching from 20 m to 40 m with the same result. I
> turned off the radio again and went to visit with my cousin and her
> husband for another hour or so. When I came back, I even tried
> connecting my ac power supply to see if the battery voltage was dropping
> too low for some reason. The PA HOT message came on each time I tried to
> transmit. Finally I tried reducing power to below 10 W. Now the tuner
> would work, and I could transmit, but going above 10 W gave the PA HOT
> message again. I finally brought the radio and tuner inside for the
> night and gave up.

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[Jay Schwisow]

Larry,

Seems strange that this came up after your rig was sitting but I will
tell you about my experiences with a toasty PA........

I have not ever seen the message PA Hot but I certainly have noticed the
PA getting hot and in a couple of instances cause the rig to shut
down/reboot.  I operate alot of CW during contests and am constantly
cqing and working stations.  I have a simple cure.  Using just a touch
of double back tape I mounted a DC muffin fan on top of the PA (blowing
air on to the PA).  Instead of wiring it directly to the K2 I just put
it on a powerpole strip.

We had a 100 degree field day this year and the rig ran flawlessly.  All
indications are that the this is cured on the K3.  It will have 2 nice
size  variable fans.

Jay - KT5E

Wolfgang, Larry, WR1B wrote:

> I've seen a couple of posts about folks having some interesting
> "problems" with their K2s on Field Day. I also had an "event," and
> wonder if anyone else has seen this problem before.
>
> After operating most of Saturday afternoon, I turned off my K2/100
> around 6 to break for supper. Since my wife had invited her brothers and
> sisters for a picnic, it was around 8 when I turned my radio on again.
> When I transmitted to answer a CQ FD, I saw the display show "PA HOT"
> and no apparent output power. I cycled the radio off and on again, but
> got the same message when I tried to transmit. The correct antenna input
> was selected, but the KAT100 wouldn't tune. When I pressed the Tune
> button it just displayed 20 and 1:1. I tried both CW and SSB with the
> same result. I tried switching from 20 m to 40 m with the same result. I
> turned off the radio again and went to visit with my cousin and her
> husband for another hour or so. When I came back, I even tried
> connecting my ac power supply to see if the battery voltage was dropping
> too low for some reason. The PA HOT message came on each time I tried to
> transmit. Finally I tried reducing power to below 10 W. Now the tuner
> would work, and I could transmit, but going above 10 W gave the PA HOT
> message again. I finally brought the radio and tuner inside for the
> night and gave up.
>
> Sunday morning I set the radio up again, and this time everything was
> fine. No problems, full power, CW and SSB, everything worked fine for
> the rest of Field Day!
>
> Any ideas on what may have been going on? There were no storms, the air
> was dry, the temperature was a bit cool, dropping into the low 60s. For
> anyone who worked WB3IOS 1B EPA, thanks for the contact!
>
> 73,
>
> Larry Wolfgang, WR1B
>  
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>  

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[Tom Hammond-2]

Hi Larry:

I've gotten the "PA HOT" warning when my K2/100 was in the car and had
been left outside on a less-than 40-degree F night!

The problem, in my case, was that the firmware (unfortunately, I can't
recall the version number, but it was relatively new) wasn't able to
account for REALLY LOW temps and the DAC would 'roll over', past '0',
and back to 255 (I think) and then appear to be indicating a HIGH
temp, when just the opposite was the case. I'd actually have to allow
the rig to warm up in order to get the warning (and lock-out) to allow
me to operate.

I mentioned this problem to Wayne and since that time, he's rewritten
the temp sensing part of the firmware to accommodate low temps and to
NOT have the PA HOT warning show up.

Is it possible that your K2 got cool enough that it might have experienced
the same problem?

I believe there is a new firmware release which will address this.

73,

Tom   N0SS



At 09:04 06/27/2007, Wolfgang, Larry,  WR1B wrote:

>I've seen a couple of posts about folks having some interesting
>"problems" with their K2s on Field Day. I also had an "event," and
>wonder if anyone else has seen this problem before.
>
>After operating most of Saturday afternoon, I turned off my K2/100
>around 6 to break for supper. Since my wife had invited her brothers and
>sisters for a picnic, it was around 8 when I turned my radio on again.
>When I transmitted to answer a CQ FD, I saw the display show "PA HOT"
>and no apparent output power. I cycled the radio off and on again, but
>got the same message when I tried to transmit. The correct antenna input
>was selected, but the KAT100 wouldn't tune. When I pressed the Tune
>button it just displayed 20 and 1:1. I tried both CW and SSB with the
>same result. I tried switching from 20 m to 40 m with the same result. I
>turned off the radio again and went to visit with my cousin and her
>husband for another hour or so. When I came back, I even tried
>connecting my ac power supply to see if the battery voltage was dropping
>too low for some reason. The PA HOT message came on each time I tried to
>transmit. Finally I tried reducing power to below 10 W. Now the tuner
>would work, and I could transmit, but going above 10 W gave the PA HOT
>message again. I finally brought the radio and tuner inside for the
>night and gave up.
>
>Sunday morning I set the radio up again, and this time everything was
>fine. No problems, full power, CW and SSB, everything worked fine for
>the rest of Field Day!
>
>Any ideas on what may have been going on? There were no storms, the air
>was dry, the temperature was a bit cool, dropping into the low 60s. For
>anyone who worked WB3IOS 1B EPA, thanks for the contact!
>
>73,
>
>Larry Wolfgang, WR1B
>
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[KJ3D-2]

For the benefit of those of us who struggle with remembering the two
conversion formula for degrees F to degrees C (or vice versa) here is a neat
little algebra expression I teach:

5F - 9C = 160

Substitute and solve for the remaining unknown.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Glitch on Field Day

... read the temperature (convert to deg. C if the reading is in deg. F) and
enter that value into the CAL tPA menu parameter.




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[Don Wilhelm-3]

There is also the conversion I use because I never can remember when and
where to add or subtract 32 degrees without thinking about it.

Both scales coincide at -40 degrees, so simply add 40 degrees to the
temperature to start with, then multiply by 5/9 or 9/5 depending on
whether you are converting to a smaller (F to C) value or a larger (C to
F) value.  After doing the multiplication, subtract 40 degrees and you
are done.

73,
Don W3FPR

KJ3D wrote:
> For the benefit of those of us who struggle with remembering the two
> conversion formula for degrees F to degrees C (or vice versa) here is a neat
> little algebra expression I teach:
>
> 5F - 9C = 160
>
> Substitute and solve for the remaining unknown.
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[KJ3D-2]

And one more... particularily useful for getting a quick and dirty estimate.
It turns out that 61 F = 16 C and 82 F = 28 C.  

73, Tom


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 12:01 PM
To: KJ3D
Cc: [hidden email]; 'Wolfgang, Larry, WR1B'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Glitch on Field Day

There is also the conversion I use because I never can remember when and
where to add or subtract 32 degrees without thinking about it.

Both scales coincide at -40 degrees, so simply add 40 degrees to the
temperature to start with, then multiply by 5/9 or 9/5 depending on whether
you are converting to a smaller (F to C) value or a larger (C to
F) value.  After doing the multiplication, subtract 40 degrees and you are
done.

73,
Don W3FPR

KJ3D wrote:
> For the benefit of those of us who struggle with remembering the two
> conversion formula for degrees F to degrees C (or vice versa) here is a
neat
> little algebra expression I teach:
>
> 5F - 9C = 160
>
> Substitute and solve for the remaining unknown.

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[Ian Stirling, G4ICV, AB2GR]

On Wednesday 27 June 2007 12:00:40 Don Wilhelm wrote:
> There is also the conversion I use because I never can remember when and
> where to add or subtract 32 degrees without thinking about it.

  The way I remember is that the freezing point of water
is zero degrees C and 32 degrees F - and converting one
to the other, the zero in each case has to be multiplied
by the fraction. So F to C requires 32 to be subtracted
before multiplying by 5/9, and C to F, the zero has to
be multiplied by 9/5 before adding 32.

Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR, K2 #4962
--
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[Chris G3SJJ]

Easier than that - Work in :

Degrees
Metres
Litres
Euros

Way to go.

A young (62) G3SJJ. Chris Burbanks. Postal code NG12 5NX,  D. O. B.
20-04-1945. Info freely given because I have no hangups about not
signing emails.




Ian Stirling wrote:

> On Wednesday 27 June 2007 12:00:40 Don Wilhelm wrote:
>  
>> There is also the conversion I use because I never can remember when and
>> where to add or subtract 32 degrees without thinking about it.
>>    
>
>   The way I remember is that the freezing point of water
> is zero degrees C and 32 degrees F - and converting one
> to the other, the zero in each case has to be multiplied
> by the fraction. So F to C requires 32 to be subtracted
> before multiplying by 5/9, and C to F, the zero has to
> be multiplied by 9/5 before adding 32.
>
> Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR, K2 #4962
> --
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>  

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[Stuart Rohre]

Was the case exposed to sun heating during the operating period?  A dark
case, or any non reflective painted case, can develop quite a bit of heat
from sun exposure even in mild weather.  That coupled with high duty cycle
of FD might have triggered the hi temp condition.

Stuart
K5KVH


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[Fred (FL)]

If anyone remembers their Physics 101 "Painted Tin
Can" experiment - one painted light, and one painted
dark - the K3 will naturally be an internally hot
rig, on field days.  In Physics 101 class - the
can painted black - took on like 20% more internal
heat, than did the can painted light. Heat
reflectivity, and all that .....   Reason we
wear white T-shirts, etc.

Fred


       
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[Andrey Stoev]

In the same Physics 101 class they teach that black painted objects radiate
heat better - one reason why the anode of a  tube and also heatsinks are
black.
The black painted box of the K3 will dissipate the internally generated heat
better.
I personally preffer the grey color of the K2. To me it looks better and
gives a unique look like no other radio. When I asked Wayne at Dayton about
K3's color he said that he thinks black looks better and that's why KX1 is
black as it is the K3.
Anyway...I miss the gray look - maybe I can make a silk screen of the front
panel and repaint the K3 once I get it in Grey. :-))
73
AE1Z

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred (FL)" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Glitch on Field Day

> If anyone remembers their Physics 101 "Painted Tin
> Can" experiment - one painted light, and one painted
> dark - the K3 will naturally be an internally hot
> rig, on field days.  In Physics 101 class - the
> can painted black - took on like 20% more internal
> heat, than did the can painted light. Heat
> reflectivity, and all that .....   Reason we
> wear white T-shirts, etc.
>
> Fred
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
> http://sims.yahoo.com/
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>

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[Peter Zenker]

Good morning friends

An elder friend om mine got his new K2 ready a couple of days ago, it worked
fantastic. After some playing with the menues a miracle appeared:

The receiver does not receive, in CW mode the mode indicator changes from c
to F every 2-3 seconds. NO, it´s not the r for rtty plus the bar for CW
reverse, it´s a complete "F"

I am pretty sure I never have seen before this flashing "F"m I traced the
manual to find everything with the word "flash" in it - no success.
The K2 is a CW only machine, extra Modules are AF Filter and RS232

Any Idea??

73 de Peter, DL2FI



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[Peter Zenker]

Good morning friends

The elder friend did some more playing with the menue and he found the
fault:

D19 was set to Y(es) After switching to n, the Receieiver started receiving
signals again and the flashing F disappeared.

So far so good. I just set my own K2 to D19 Y. No flashing "F" :-(((

However, his K2 is running, he is happy

73 de Peter, DL2FI



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[wayne burdick]

>
> So far so good. I just set my own K2 to D19 Y. No flashing "F" :-(((

Hi Peter,

The flashing 'F' indicates that "fast play" mode is in effect, which
allows you to use a subset of the keypad switches as one-touch CW
message buttons. The particular subset of switches used is set up in
the FPLY menu entry (secondary menu), and to turn it on/off you have to
assign one of the special-function switches to it. This is covered in
the manual.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


---

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[Tom Hammond-2]

Folks:

At 22:05 06/27/2007, Fred (FL) wrote:
>If anyone remembers their Physics 101 "Painted Tin
>Can" experiment - one painted light, and one painted
>dark - the K3 will naturally be an internally hot
>rig, on field days.  In Physics 101 class - the
>can painted black - took on like 20% more internal
>heat, than did the can painted light. Heat
>reflectivity, and all that .....   Reason we
>wear white T-shirts, etc.

To possibly help reduce the further level of discussion on this topic...

I've been corresponding with Larry on his problem, and it appears
that there's a STRONG probability that it is NOT due to HEAT, but to COOLING!!!

Here (below) is the text of a message I sent to Larry early-on in the
correspondence, and to which he has responded that the local temps
did drop somewhat...

73,

Tom   N0SS
________________

Hi Larry:

I've gotten the "PA HOT" warning when my K2/100 was in the car and had
been left outside on a less-than 40-degree F night!

The problem, in my case, was that the firmware (unfortunately, I can't
recall the version number, but it was relatively new) wasn't able to
account for REALLY LOW temps and the DAC would 'roll over', past '0',
and back to 255 (I think) and then appear to be indicating a HIGH
temp, when just the opposite was the case. I'd actually have to allow
the rig to warm up in order to get the warning (and lock-out) to allow
me to operate.

I mentioned this problem to Wayne and since that time, he's rewritten
the temp sensing part of the firmware to accommodate low temps and to
NOT have the PA HOT warning show up.

Is it possible that your K2 got cool enough that it might have experienced
the same problem?

I believe there is (err... MAY BE) a new firmware release which will address
this.  But best to ASK before you order one which might NOT include the fix.

73,

Tom   N0SS





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[Julian, G4ILO]

On 6/28/07, wayne burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Peter,
>
> The flashing 'F' indicates that "fast play" mode is in effect, which
> allows you to use a subset of the keypad switches as one-touch CW
> message buttons. The particular subset of switches used is set up in
> the FPLY menu entry (secondary menu), and to turn it on/off you have to
> assign one of the special-function switches to it. This is covered in
> the manual.
>

I've had a K2 nearly 8 years and there's stuff it can do I never
realised (or just forgot). I AM getting too old!

I reckon my K3 is going to be the most intelligent thing in my shack.

73,
--
Julian, G4ILO
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
www.Ham-Directory.com: the best ham resources on the net
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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Andrey Stoev wrote:
> In the same
> Physics 101 class they teach that black painted objects radiate heat
> better - one reason why the anode of a  tube and also heatsinks are black.

Sort of true, but is "blackness" at near infrared, for the valve, and
far infrared, for heat sinks (also near infrared for solar heat
absorption).  Theoretically, one could have an object that was a very
efficient radiator but was optically white.

I think it is generally black pigments, that are broadband black.  Black
dyes may well be transparent at infrared.


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David Woolley
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