K2 S/N 4787 First QSO

[Jim Harris-4]

Hi to everyone,

Got the SSB and NB installed and decided it was time
for that first QSO.  A friend across town was happy to
oblige.  He was impressed with the audio.  He recorded
it and it sounds nice when played back.  Received
audio sounds a little tinny....maybe it is just my
headphones and the tiny speaker.  During the qso I
realized that either there is no mike gain adjust or
it's buried in a menu that I can't remember.  Anyone
know where that might be?  I'm using the Elecraft/Heil
MD-2 microphone.  The mike is almost as big as the
radio.  hi hi

I've realigned the 4 mhz and PLL three times against
WWV and my friend says I am still 20-30 hz off.  Does
it settle down at some point or do I need to chase it
every few days?  My shack runs in the low 60 degrees
and doesn't vary much.  It's in the basement with a
small space heater.

Maybe related to the above, support at elecraft has
decided I need the 12 microhenry inductor instead of
the 10.  That is based on a PLL range of 9.44 which,
of course, is lower than than the minimum of 9.8.  It
should be here in a few days and we will see if that
improves the stability.

Twice when transmitting on 40 meters the over current
indication appeared.  I hit the display and max on 10
watts was 2.2 amps.  Per supports suggestion I had set
upper limit at 3.5 amps earlier.  The 13.8 volts input
is fused at 3 amps fast open so I wonder if the
measuring circuit had a momentarily glitch.  The over
current did not open the fuse.  Any thoughs on this
one time, so far, glitch.

Hopefully, today or tomorrow I'll get the 60 and 160
meter mods installed.  Then to get a new wire antenna
up and then start looking at a DSP and KPA 100.  Not
to worry, I've got nine antennas on an 80x100 ft city
lot....one wire is being replaced.  Where does the fun
ever end......    (when it comes time to pay the
credit card)

Jim, AB0UK


               
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Jim, AB0UK wrote:

Got the SSB and NB installed and decided it was time
for that first QSO.  A friend across town was happy to
oblige.  He was impressed with the audio.  He recorded
it and it sounds nice when played back.  Received
audio sounds a little tinny....maybe it is just my
headphones and the tiny speaker.
---------------------

With my K2 set for optimum xmit audio, I find the receive audio tends to cut
off more of the "lows" than I like on some signals. The ideal bandpass
definitely changes with the voice on the other end. So I have FL2 set using
the OPT1 filter for a BFO frequency that shifts the bandpass slightly to
produce more bass in the signal (bandpass closer to the carrier freq). That
gives me way to shift the tone of the received signal by changing filters.
The settings for FL1 are *always* used for xmit, no matter what filter
position you are using for receive, so adjusting the other filter positions
to suit your taste will not have any affect on your transmit audio.

Jim wrote:
During the qso I
realized that either there is no mike gain adjust or
it's buried in a menu that I can't remember.  Anyone
know where that might be?
--------------------

Mic gain is set via an attenuator and then automatically adjusted in the
speech processor I.C. The mic attenuator control is available under MENU
option SSBA. SSBA 1 attenuates the audio by 10 dB. SSB 2 or 3 provides full
gain with no attenuation.

Jim wrote:

I've realigned the 4 mhz and PLL three times against
WWV and my friend says I am still 20-30 hz off.  Does
it settle down at some point or do I need to chase it
every few days?

----------------

One of the features that gives the K2 receiver its 'edge' in hearing weak
signals over many of the other rigs is that the K2 does *not* use a
fully-synthesized local oscillator. With that superior receive performance
comes a trade-off: the K2 simply is not as stable as those other rigs with
fully-synthesized L.O.s in crystal ovens. Still, current K2's are very, very
good, but it deserves a good 15-minute warm-up.

One other issue that affects your frequency readout is the ability of the K2
to reset the oscillators to a specific frequency. When you calibrate your
K2, the analog voltages used to tune the oscillators are converted into
digital values and stored as digital data in memory. When you tune in a
specific frequency, the logic looks up those digital values and converts
them back into the proper analog tuning voltages. This conversion back and
forth is done by "Digital to Analog Converters" or DACs. DACs have a
specific amount of accuracy. More accuracy requires bigger numbers and more
memory. The tradeoff that Elecraft used between memory and accuracy puts the
K2 within about 20 or 30 Hz of the expected frequency.

That said, one might ask how accurate the other guy's rig is. A quick check
for you is to tune in WWV. Give your K2 a 15 minute warm-up at least, then
zero beat WWV's carrier and check your K2's frequency display. I just turned
on my K2 a few minutes ago and it's showing WWV at 10000.01 kHz right now -
10 Hz high.

Ron AC7AC



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[Jim Harris-4]

Thanks Ron,

You've gave me some good information.  Now I remember
the filter and processor settings.  I'll have to go
tweak them and see what we get.  

I'm hoping the 12 uhenry inductor will give more range
and will help stablize the frequency.  Support also
stated they had gotten some crystals that were not
"rubber" enough and recommended replacing the
associated inductor.

I'm going to print your response and put it with my K2
fact folder.  

Thanks again,

Jim, AB0UK
--- Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jim, AB0UK wrote:
>
> Got the SSB and NB installed and decided it was time
> for that first QSO.  A friend across town was happy
> to
> oblige.  He was impressed with the audio.  He
> recorded
> it and it sounds nice when played back.  Received
> audio sounds a little tinny....maybe it is just my
> headphones and the tiny speaker.
> ---------------------
>
> With my K2 set for optimum xmit audio, I find the
> receive audio tends to cut
> off more of the "lows" than I like on some signals.
> The ideal bandpass
> definitely changes with the voice on the other end.
> So I have FL2 set using
> the OPT1 filter for a BFO frequency that shifts the
> bandpass slightly to
> produce more bass in the signal (bandpass closer to
> the carrier freq). That
> gives me way to shift the tone of the received
> signal by changing filters.
> The settings for FL1 are *always* used for xmit, no
> matter what filter
> position you are using for receive, so adjusting the
> other filter positions
> to suit your taste will not have any affect on your
> transmit audio.
>
> Jim wrote:
> During the qso I
> realized that either there is no mike gain adjust or
> it's buried in a menu that I can't remember.  Anyone
> know where that might be?
> --------------------
>
> Mic gain is set via an attenuator and then
> automatically adjusted in the
> speech processor I.C. The mic attenuator control is
> available under MENU
> option SSBA. SSBA 1 attenuates the audio by 10 dB.
> SSB 2 or 3 provides full
> gain with no attenuation.
>
> Jim wrote:
>
> I've realigned the 4 mhz and PLL three times against
> WWV and my friend says I am still 20-30 hz off.
> Does
> it settle down at some point or do I need to chase
> it
> every few days?
>
> ----------------
>
> One of the features that gives the K2 receiver its
> 'edge' in hearing weak
> signals over many of the other rigs is that the K2
> does *not* use a
> fully-synthesized local oscillator. With that
> superior receive performance
> comes a trade-off: the K2 simply is not as stable as
> those other rigs with
> fully-synthesized L.O.s in crystal ovens. Still,
> current K2's are very, very
> good, but it deserves a good 15-minute warm-up.
>
> One other issue that affects your frequency readout
> is the ability of the K2
> to reset the oscillators to a specific frequency.
> When you calibrate your
> K2, the analog voltages used to tune the oscillators
> are converted into
> digital values and stored as digital data in memory.
> When you tune in a
> specific frequency, the logic looks up those digital
> values and converts
> them back into the proper analog tuning voltages.
> This conversion back and
> forth is done by "Digital to Analog Converters" or
> DACs. DACs have a
> specific amount of accuracy. More accuracy requires
> bigger numbers and more
> memory. The tradeoff that Elecraft used between
> memory and accuracy puts the
> K2 within about 20 or 30 Hz of the expected
> frequency.
>
> That said, one might ask how accurate the other
> guy's rig is. A quick check
> for you is to tune in WWV. Give your K2 a 15 minute
> warm-up at least, then
> zero beat WWV's carrier and check your K2's
> frequency display. I just turned
> on my K2 a few minutes ago and it's showing WWV at
> 10000.01 kHz right now -
> 10 Hz high.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
>

               
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[Fraser Robertson]

Sorry, I don't understand this point.  The K2's I've tested fall down on LO
phase noise performance.  Also note that the K2 measurements on the Sherwood
web site state that the receiver performance is limited by phase noise.  I
agree the RX works very well, but I've attracted comments on the air (when
running QRO) re transmitted phase noise.  Surely the good receive
performance is primarily due to having good selectivity near the front end.

Phase noise seems to be a taboo subject on here, attracting only personal
replies.  Is there a way to bring it in line with other top rigs?

73 Fraser G4BJM

>
>One of the features that gives the K2 receiver its 'edge' in hearing weak
>signals over many of the other rigs is that the K2 does *not* use a
>fully-synthesized local oscillator. With that superior receive performance
>comes a trade-off: the K2 simply is not as stable as those other rigs with
>fully-synthesized L.O.s in crystal ovens. Still, current K2's are very,
>very
>good, but it deserves a good 15-minute warm-up.
>

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Fraser G4BJM wrote:

Sorry, I don't understand this point.  The K2's I've tested fall down on LO
phase noise performance.  Also note that the K2 measurements on the Sherwood

web site state that the receiver performance is limited by phase noise.  I
agree the RX works very well, but I've attracted comments on the air (when
running QRO) re transmitted phase noise.  Surely the good receive
performance is primarily due to having good selectivity near the front end.

Phase noise seems to be a taboo subject on here...  Is there a way to bring
it in line with other top rigs?

-------------------

You're the first that I've heard to make such comments, Fraser.

I have not tested the K2 myself. I was referring to the design approach the
K2 uses that allows for lower phase noise than a fully-synthesized
oscillator, but at the cost of somewhat less absolute frequency stability
and dial accuracy.

As you know, reducing the frequency at which phase correction is applied to
a PLL reduces the phase-generated sidebands or "phase noise". If you have a
fully-synthesized oscillator must stay within 1 Hz of the reference
oscillator, it has to be corrected often enough that it will never drift
more than 1 Hz or it'll start "walking" across the band in 1 Hz steps. That
involves very frequent corrections and resulting noise.

Elecraft uses a PLL that tunes in only 5 KHz steps. It does not need to
correct nearly as often as a fully synthesized oscillator, hence less phase
noise.

Of course, a local oscillator that tunes in 5 kHz steps isn't very useful on
the Ham bands so, instead of using a very precisely controlled reference
oscillator, the K2 uses a variable frequency oscillator for the reference
oscillator. More accurately, it uses a variable frequency *crystal*
oscillator, or VXO, for the reference oscillator. The VXO is tuned by a
varicap over a 5 kHz range to fill in the gaps in the PLL tuning. The result
is a very quiet PLL with continuous frequency coverage.

The down-side of that approach is that because the reference oscillator is
designed to change frequency, it will tend to drift. A fully-synthesized PLL
can use exotic crystal oscillators in temperature-controlled ovens to
provide a much higher degree of stability than any variable-frequency
oscillator can achieve. So, in terms of absolute frequency stability, the K2
is not as stable as some fully-synthesized rigs. Still, in my experience,
the K2 needs offer no apologies for frequency stability, even in very
demanding situations such as PSK31.

If you are experiencing phase noise problems in either transmit or receive,
I'm sure Elecraft would like to hear about it. I'm not personally familiar
with the Sherwood web site.

I've never seen a subject relating to Elecraft equipment that wasn't eagerly
discussed and dissected here on the reflector, although comments do get
missed from time to time. Certainly, no such queries are "taboo". Indeed, a
great many of the design improvements to the Elecraft rigs have come
directly from initial criticisms published right here, followed by a lot of
discussions about ways to improve the rigs that eventually led to a design
change. Moreover, every time such a change was made, an upgrade kit was also
made available to all current owners so their rigs could keep pace with the
performance of the very latest new units being built.  

Ron AC7AC


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[G3VVT]

 
In a message dated 16/03/05 22:48:02 GMT Standard Time, [hidden email]  
writes:

The K2's  I've tested fall down on LO
phase noise performance.  Also note that  the K2 measurements on the Sherwood
web site state that the receiver  performance is limited by phase noise.  I
agree the RX works very  well, but I've attracted comments on the air (when
running QRO) re  transmitted phase noise.


------------------------------------------------
 
I wonder if there is an obsession with numbers. To place the matter in  
perspective, the Sherwood Engineering web site does list the K2 which  is serial
#3170 or about 2 years old? as being the 7th from the  top of all the ham radio
receivers tested. The aspect of the  effects of phase noise being only one of
many parameters that determine the  final result.
 
I would presume that to measure phase noise needs the resources of a well  
equipped professional lab. Whilst personally I am well equipped to carry out  
servicing of radios from HF through to UHF, cannot even really scratch the  
surface in terms of measuring phase noise. The professional communications  
systems servicing organisation I worked for despite being well equipped for  testing
from HF though to microwave in the field had little that could be used  
seriously for testing phase noise except for probably some rather expensive HP  
spectrum analysers that were issued only recently to maintain a new 8GHz digital  
microwave system.
 
Before slagging the K2 one should take more seriously what it represents in  
terms of outlay, costing only a fraction of cheapest HF transceivers available
 on the market. Admittedly you have to build it yourself, but still the  
performance of the K2 as what it was primarily designed for, a QRP CW  transceiver
takes a heck of a lot of beating. There are shortcoming that occur  with the
additional added components, though even these have been mitigated by  later
modifications.
 
Do the persons reporting phase noise on K2 TX really know what they are  
talking about or just pushing out some mumbo jumbo that just happens to be the  
popular quotation of the day? To be frank most hams including myself  would
probably not be be aware what phase noise is even if it jumped out and bit  them.
 
Bob, G3VVT
K2 #4168
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[Paul Bruneau]

On Mar 16, 2005, at 8:09 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Admittedly you have to build it yourself, but still the
> performance of the K2 as what it was primarily designed for, a QRP CW  
> transceiver
> takes a heck of a lot of beating.

I figure about $300 of what I spent on my K2 (which is waiting for me
at home having just been delivered) was for the privilege of being able
to build it myself!

Great post.

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[Andrew Moore-4]

I'm assembling the RF board on my K2, and I just reached the step that
says:

        "The bag of 7 filter crystals should have a number
        written on it.  Record the number here: _________ .
        This identifies the tested frequency of the
        crystals, and can be used in aligning filters.

Well, last night when I was sorting components and putting them in
trays, I tossed the bags.

Tomorrow morning is trash day, and the trash is at the curb.  Should I
go start digging, or is it really necessary for me to have this number?

--Andrew, NV1B


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[Mark J. Schreiner]

I'm not sure how critical that exact value is.  I'm still doing assembly
and not at that step yet.  My bag of 7 xtals has "3.7" written on it.  
All of the xtals have 4.9136 marked on them.  I assume they were all
measured & matched at 4.9137 MHz instead of the marked value, so they
are 100 Hz high.

I don't see a similar number on the BFO xtals bag of  2 xtals which are
listed as 4.915 and marked on the xtals as 4.91.  Not sure if this helps
you.  I'll try to remember not to throw the bag away right off but keep
it handy.  Thanks for the heads up!

Mark, NK8Q
K2 S/N 4786 (being built)

Andrew Moore wrote:

>I'm assembling the RF board on my K2, and I just reached the step that
>says:
>
> "The bag of 7 filter crystals should have a number
> written on it.  Record the number here: _________ .
> This identifies the tested frequency of the
> crystals, and can be used in aligning filters.
>
>Well, last night when I was sorting components and putting them in
>trays, I tossed the bags.
>
>Tomorrow morning is trash day, and the trash is at the curb.  Should I
>go start digging, or is it really necessary for me to have this number?
>
>--Andrew, NV1B
>
>
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>
>  
>

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[Ci Jones]

 
 
In a message dated 3/17/05 04:22:44 GMT Standard Time, [hidden email]  
writes:

I'm not  sure how critical that exact value is.

I don't know either, but I don't remember using the value at all (even  
though I wrote it in the manual). At any rate, I wouldn't dig through the trash  
for it...Ci

 
Ci Jones  (K2/100 (almost) - 4615, KX1 - 957, K1 - 933)
WU7R
FISTS 10789
NAQCC  306
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Andrew,

It might make a small difference, but you can work around it - assume the
crystal set is 3.7 (the most common) and set the BFO frequencies initially
from that setting. - Those values will work but possibly will not be
optimum.  After you have a functioning receiver, you can use Spectrogram to
set the BFO frequencies so that the center of the passband is at your chosen
sidtone pitch and all will be well.  See my website www.qsl.net/w3fpr
article - Step 3 of K2 Dial Calibration for detailed information on setting
the filters and associated BFOs.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I'm assembling the RF board on my K2, and I just reached the step that
> says:
>
> "The bag of 7 filter crystals should have a number
> written on it.  Record the number here: _________ .
> This identifies the tested frequency of the
> crystals, and can be used in aligning filters.
>
> Well, last night when I was sorting components and putting them in
> trays, I tossed the bags.
>
> Tomorrow morning is trash day, and the trash is at the curb.  Should I
> go start digging, or is it really necessary for me to have this number?
>
> --Andrew, NV1B
>
>

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[rrkrr-2]

The Sherwood Engineering data says that for the 2 kHz spacing dynamic
range test, the K2's performance was limited not by nonlinearity
(intermodulation distortion) but by the K2's oscillator phase noise
sidebands.  The same table says the same thing about the Ten Tec Orion's
performance in the 10 kHz spacing dynamic range test, and it is listed
as the top performer in their table.  I think this data speaks more to
the excellent wide dynamic range performance of these radios more than
to the inferiority of their phase noise performance.

The Sherwood "Receiver Test Data Table" has a column labeled "LO Noise
Spacing" and another column labeled "kHz" immediately to the right.  For
the K2 data near the top of the spreadsheet, I interpret the entries in
these columns as meaning that the single sideband phase noise power (in
a 1 Hz bandwidth) for the K2's oscillator spectrum is -123 dB relative
to the oscillator carrier power at 10 kHz away from the carrier
frequency (someone please tell me if I'm wrong).  This is not too shabby
considering the price of the K2.

Cost is an important consideration.  Poseidon Scientific Instruments of
Perth, Austrailia builds sapphire loaded cavity resonator microwave
oscillators which are quite popular with high resolution, high dynamic
range radar system designers.  These sport SSB phase noise performance
of better than -145 dBc/Hz at only 1 kHz from the carrier at 10 GHz
carrier frequency!  These can be used with regenerative frequency
dividers to produce even more phenomenal performance at lower (read HF)
frequencies, since the phase noise sideband spectrum extent also gets
divided by the same ratio as the carrier frequency.  If you plan to get
one to replace your K2's oscillator, you might wish to know that they
cost more than $100k each.  You might also wish to know that if you
actually want to measure the phase noise of one of these, you'll need
another oscillator phse locked to the first one, with as good or better
phase noise performance, not to mention a pretty fancy low frequency
spectrum analyzer and a few other peripherals, which means you'll need
to spend more than $200k.

Given that I'm only looking for weak CW signals on 40 Meters in the
presence of QRM from another ham a mile away from me, and not trying to
extract the doppler shifted radar pulse echo of a gnat at 200 miles
range from that of the mountain behind him, I'll stick with my original
K2 oscillator at about 0.5% of the cost.....

Bob
WB4TGG


[hidden email] wrote:

>
>In a message dated 16/03/05 22:48:02 GMT Standard Time, [hidden email]  
>writes:
>
>The K2's  I've tested fall down on LO
>phase noise performance.  Also note that  the K2 measurements on the Sherwood
>web site state that the receiver  performance is limited by phase noise.  I
>agree the RX works very  well, but I've attracted comments on the air (when
>running QRO) re  transmitted phase noise.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------
>
>I wonder if there is an obsession with numbers. To place the matter in  
>perspective, the Sherwood Engineering web site does list the K2 which  is serial
>#3170 or about 2 years old? as being the 7th from the  top of all the ham radio
>receivers tested. The aspect of the  effects of phase noise being only one of
>many parameters that determine the  final result.
>
>I would presume that to measure phase noise needs the resources of a well  
>equipped professional lab. Whilst personally I am well equipped to carry out  
>servicing of radios from HF through to UHF, cannot even really scratch the  
>surface in terms of measuring phase noise. The professional communications  
>systems servicing organisation I worked for despite being well equipped for  testing
>from HF though to microwave in the field had little that could be used  
>seriously for testing phase noise except for probably some rather expensive HP  
>spectrum analysers that were issued only recently to maintain a new 8GHz digital  
>microwave system.
>
>Before slagging the K2 one should take more seriously what it represents in  
>terms of outlay, costing only a fraction of cheapest HF transceivers available
> on the market. Admittedly you have to build it yourself, but still the  
>performance of the K2 as what it was primarily designed for, a QRP CW  transceiver
>takes a heck of a lot of beating. There are shortcoming that occur  with the
>additional added components, though even these have been mitigated by  later
>modifications.
>
>Do the persons reporting phase noise on K2 TX really know what they are  
>talking about or just pushing out some mumbo jumbo that just happens to be the  
>popular quotation of the day? To be frank most hams including myself  would
>probably not be be aware what phase noise is even if it jumped out and bit  them.
>
>Bob, G3VVT
>K2 #4168
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[Andrew Moore-4]

Thanks for all your replies.  I'm almost certain mine were labeled "3.7"
as well, but I'll be using Spectrogram set the BFO frequencies anyway.

--Andrew, NV1B


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[Margaret Leber]

Andrew Moore wrote:

> Tomorrow morning is trash day, and the trash is at the curb.  Should I
> go start digging, or is it really necessary for me to have this number?

I hope not...I'm using the retrofit "set of matched filter xtals"
K2KSB2XTALS kit and there's no number on that envelope at all.

I still have the original filter xtals that came with 1641, and the
number on their envelope is "20", if that helps. :-) I haven't found the
place in the manual where that number is *used* yet.

By the way...I have a recommendation I don't think I've heard anybody
else make. While working on my K2 I have my laptop at hand at the bench,
and I keep a directory full of all kinds of data relevant to the build
on in...including the PDF copy of the Owner's Manual.

While doing the RF board it ocurred to me in (the middle of that block
of 75 capacitors) that the bulk of the labor was going into locating the
places on the PCB where each component went.

So I fired up Acrobat Reader, paged to the parts layout, rotated the
page on the display, zoomed in a bit, and was able to use the Search
function to scroll the diagram to the appropriate location for every
part as I installed it.

Made things *much* easier. Wish I'd thought of it earlier.

Re: winding toroids:

Hey, it's not that bad at all, and reminds me quite a bit of sewing.

If you guys have XYLs who sew you might ask them if they want to help
you build a radio...they already know that funny multi-finger maneuver
that lets us pass a needle through cloth one-handed without ever
completely letting go of it..which is exactly what it takes to wind a
toroid easily.

73 de Maggie K3XS -- K2 S/N 1641 (build in progress, between T5 and T7)

--
-----/___.   _)Margaret Stephanie Leber CCP, SCJP/"The art of progress /
----/(, /|  /| http://voicenet.com/~maggie SCWCD/ is to preserve order/
---/   / | / |  _   _   _    `  _  AOPA 925383/ amid change and to  /
--/ ) /  |/  |_(_(_(_/_(_/__(__(/_      K3XS / preserve change amid/
-/ (_/   '        .-/ .-/        ARRL 39280 /order."-A.N.Whitehead/
/________________(_/_(_/_______AMSAT 32844_/<[hidden email]>/

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