K2 question on options

[R Thompson]

My K2 is near completion, minus the options, which haven't been ordered
yet.  There is one or two where a decision must be made, and I'd very
much appreciate some help with them.

The big one would be whether to add on the traditional audio filter or
the DSP instead.  I'd like to keep current draw down for battery
operation, and I'm not sure if I like the sound of heavily DSP filtered
audio (as it sounds on my IC-703).  The bigger noise issues I have seem
to be AC power line buzz, and ignition noise if I use it mobile.
Hopefully the noise blanker option will handle the latter.  Is DPS worth
the extra money and load on a battery?

Other options I'm looking to add are the noise blanker, the SSB board,
and likely the transverter and 160 metre options.

Any recommendations?

           Ron VE8RT

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[RobertG]

Ron...

The K2 here has all possible options: 160m, nb, ssb, dsp and amp.
Obviously, there's little reduntancy in this list. So, how useful is
each mod? I have no antenna capability on 160m, so aside from some
listening, of little use. Depends on how serious you are about 160m. The
NB at times does wonders in a quiet, urban setting, yet doesn't stop all
noise. A good buy. I'm virtually all CW here, using ssb when it's the
only option for rare DX. The SSB module does well enough without any
bells and whistles. If you lean towards SSB, then necessary; elsewise, a
sub-hobby. The DSP is quite versitile with lots of adjustments. The
implementation of the DSP technique is beyond my evaluation; there may
be much better out there, or maybe not. That said, I can taylor its
action in ways that I find regularly useful, again on cw. I've listened
to SSB using the DSP, and I find it of no help for me and noteably
worse, again from my own subjective experience. I have not tried the
passive filter that is available. I read that those who have them
generally consider them to be useful. The few A-B comparisons between
the AF and DSP units that have appeared tend to favor the DSP rather
than reject the filter. Your ear may sound different. I like the amp. I
drive a 500w amp in contests and sometimes for DX, so the amp is
required for drive. By itself, at any spot from 10w to 100w, it's a
nifty performer. If you see yourself as being a K2, QRP'er,  then the
amp is obviously not necessary. Otherwise, nice/required. The K3 is not
that much further out of financial reach, and that should be considered.
On the other hand, building/assembling a K2 and its mods tends to give
one a lifetime of inner ham radio satisfaction, as you probably know.
That's good therapy all by itself.

So, that's my take on it, from a very small pistol, who is happy to
break into the top 25, occasionally, when not playing guitar.

Have a good day. 73 to all

...robert

On 7/13/2011 01:21, R Thompson wrote:

> My K2 is near completion, minus the options, which haven't been ordered
> yet.  There is one or two where a decision must be made, and I'd very
> much appreciate some help with them.
>
> The big one would be whether to add on the traditional audio filter or
> the DSP instead.  I'd like to keep current draw down for battery
> operation, and I'm not sure if I like the sound of heavily DSP filtered
> audio (as it sounds on my IC-703).  The bigger noise issues I have seem
> to be AC power line buzz, and ignition noise if I use it mobile.
> Hopefully the noise blanker option will handle the latter.  Is DPS worth
> the extra money and load on a battery?
>
> Other options I'm looking to add are the noise blanker, the SSB board,
> and likely the transverter and 160 metre options.
>
> Any recommendations?
>
>             Ron VE8RT
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY
[hidden email]
Syracuse, New York, USA
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[David Dietrich]

Hi Ron!

I just bought a K2 after wanting one for the last few years. I haven't built it yet, but here is a rundown of what I got:

KNB2-a noise blanker is always nice to have.

K160M-not ideal for QRP, but still it is worth trying.

KAF2-I am mostly a CW guy. My ICOM and Yaesu both have DSP, and I don't like the audio quality. Sometimes analog filters are better. I have heard that the KAF2 is more intended for the CW crowd.

KSB2-although I am a CW guy, I got this option because I wanted the filter options and the better audio fidelity on SSB receive

KAT2-since this is going to be one of the QRP rigs I would take on trips, the antenna tuner saves me from having to lug an external one.

I did not get the internal battery. I figure a external gel cell can power all my radios in the field.

Hope this helps!

73,

David
KC9EHQ
K1 s/n 2051
K2 s/n 7164

Sent from my iPod
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[R Thompson]

Thanks Robert,

     that was very helpful.  I wouldn't consider myself a CW op, but it
is my preferred mode.  My CW is distinguished by 'tick' like random
moments when I can't even send my own call sign right.  

     I would like to hear from someone who has the filter, what their
impressions are.  I'm not overly impressed with the DSP as I've
experienced it on my IC-703, but it can make a difference even if it no
longer sounds natural.  So I'm leaning towards getting the filter.

     The K3 was too much radio for me, the station here now is a 50W
analog TT Argosy running off of SLA batteries and solar charged.  With
respect to the amplifier, I thought about waiting to see what the
external 100W amplifier being designed for the KX3 will be like.  It
would be nice to have the K2 as a battery portable, and an external
power amplifier when needed.  SSB is a must have, for checking into
nets.  It can be done in CW, but SSB is more convenient especially if
the net control doesn't copy CW, or when you need a relay and the relay
station cannot copy CW.

     I was thinking of the 160M option, but more for the 2nd (receiver)
antenna input than actually using it on 160.  If I add it, it will be
later.  And I'd like the transverter mod.  But at the same time I don't
want to have rarely used options drawing current from my batteries.

     Other reasons for buying the K2 over any other radio are, its
battery friendly with both reasonable current draw and lower voltage
operation.  It is also a reasonable size to travel with, and I'm
considering it for possible mobile operation (with an external power
amplifier).

     Wish I could play a guitar, or something, I don't seem to have that
kind of talent :-(

            Ron VE8RT

On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 03:51 +0000, Robert G. Strickland wrote:

> Ron...
>
> The K2 here has all possible options: 160m, nb, ssb, dsp and amp.
> Obviously, there's little reduntancy in this list. So, how useful is
> each mod? I have no antenna capability on 160m, so aside from some
> listening, of little use. Depends on how serious you are about 160m. The
> NB at times does wonders in a quiet, urban setting, yet doesn't stop all
> noise. A good buy. I'm virtually all CW here, using ssb when it's the
> only option for rare DX. The SSB module does well enough without any
> bells and whistles. If you lean towards SSB, then necessary; elsewise, a
> sub-hobby. The DSP is quite versitile with lots of adjustments. The
> implementation of the DSP technique is beyond my evaluation; there may
> be much better out there, or maybe not. That said, I can taylor its
> action in ways that I find regularly useful, again on cw. I've listened
> to SSB using the DSP, and I find it of no help for me and noteably
> worse, again from my own subjective experience. I have not tried the
> passive filter that is available. I read that those who have them
> generally consider them to be useful. The few A-B comparisons between
> the AF and DSP units that have appeared tend to favor the DSP rather
> than reject the filter. Your ear may sound different. I like the amp. I
> drive a 500w amp in contests and sometimes for DX, so the amp is
> required for drive. By itself, at any spot from 10w to 100w, it's a
> nifty performer. If you see yourself as being a K2, QRP'er,  then the
> amp is obviously not necessary. Otherwise, nice/required. The K3 is not
> that much further out of financial reach, and that should be considered.
> On the other hand, building/assembling a K2 and its mods tends to give
> one a lifetime of inner ham radio satisfaction, as you probably know.
> That's good therapy all by itself.
>
> So, that's my take on it, from a very small pistol, who is happy to
> break into the top 25, occasionally, when not playing guitar.
>
> Have a good day. 73 to all
>
> ...robert
>
> On 7/13/2011 01:21, R Thompson wrote:
> > My K2 is near completion, minus the options, which haven't been ordered
> > yet.  There is one or two where a decision must be made, and I'd very
> > much appreciate some help with them.
> >
> > The big one would be whether to add on the traditional audio filter or
> > the DSP instead.  I'd like to keep current draw down for battery
> > operation, and I'm not sure if I like the sound of heavily DSP filtered
> > audio (as it sounds on my IC-703).  The bigger noise issues I have seem
> > to be AC power line buzz, and ignition noise if I use it mobile.
> > Hopefully the noise blanker option will handle the latter.  Is DPS worth
> > the extra money and load on a battery?
> >
> > Other options I'm looking to add are the noise blanker, the SSB board,
> > and likely the transverter and 160 metre options.
> >
> > Any recommendations?
> >
> >             Ron VE8RT
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
>

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[Bill W4ZV]

R Thompson wrote

     I would like to hear from someone who has the filter, what their
impressions are.  I'm not overly impressed with the DSP as I've
experienced it on my IC-703, but it can make a difference even if it no
longer sounds natural.  So I'm leaning towards getting the filter.

I have the KAF2 but to be honest I seldom use it.  For some reason I've never found audio filters to be of much help.  My experience goes back to the Autek QF-1A, SCAT filters, many different outboard DSP filters, etc.  I'm sure they work well for others but I've never found them to work for my ears which seem to prefer wider audio (~350 Hz) before reaching my ear/brain's DSP stage.  One exception is the K3's APF which is occasionally helpful under certain conditions.

Here's some more information on the KAF2 which might help you decide.  I used KI6WX's standard AF1 and "low-ringing" AF2 values in my unit:

http://home.pacbell.net/johngreb/kaf2_filter_modifications.pdf

73,  Bill

[R Thompson]

Thanks for all the replies,

     that settles it for me, as I haven't enjoyed my own experiences
with DSP, I'll order the KAF2.  And I'll consider the anti-ringing
modification.  

      Ron VE8RT

On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 03:32 -0700, Bill W4ZV wrote:

> R Thompson wrote:
> >
> >      I would like to hear from someone who has the filter, what their
> > impressions are.  I'm not overly impressed with the DSP as I've
> > experienced it on my IC-703, but it can make a difference even if it no
> > longer sounds natural.  So I'm leaning towards getting the filter.
> >
>
> I have the KAF2 but to be honest I seldom use it.  For some reason I've
> never found audio filters to be of much help.  My experience goes back to
> the Autek QF-1A, SCAT filters, many different outboard DSP filters, etc.
> I'm sure they work well for others but I've never found them to work for my
> ears which seem to prefer wider audio (~350 Hz) before reaching my
> ear/brain's DSP stage.  One exception is the K3's APF which is occasionally
> helpful under certain conditions.
>
> Here's some more information on the KAF2 which might help you decide.  I
> used KI6WX's standard AF1 and "low-ringing" AF2 values in my unit:
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/johngreb/kaf2_filter_modifications.pdf
>
> 73,  Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K2-question-on-options-tp6577413p6578509.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Andrew Moore-3]

You're not alone -- this is a common tough decision.

I went through this exercise, trying both the KAF2 and the KDSP2, including
side by side comparisons between them. Sounds like you already found your
answer, but if there's any remaining uncertainty I'll be glad to go into
detail offline (will have to dig up some old emails on this).

In short, I found that:

The differences in performance are small.

The differences in sound quality are medium.

The differences in user interface and complexity are big. The KDSP2 is a
highly tweakable/configurable option.

I think that for a CW-only op, the KAF2 is the way to go, and that for an op
that also does SSB, data, DX and contesting, the KDSP2 is the way to go.

NOTE:  Be sure to re-adjust your KAF2 if you change your K2's sidetone
frequency.

After owning both, I found the KAF2 much more compatible with my needs (I
prefer simplicity and CW only).

I would not recommend basing your decision solely on performance around the
reception of a signal (as in ide by side comparison).  I think the
differences are just too small.  Think more about your operating philosophy
and your needs (modes operated).

Also, if you plan to exploit the KDSP2's expandability by writing custom DSP
code, be prepared to invest a fair amount of time and effort (and some dev
tools). I was eager to go that route but ended up deciding against it. I
think Elecraft ended up doing most of that good work for us. Definitely
would be a fun exercise and learning experience, but be prepared to invest
some effort.

73,
--Andrew, NV1B


On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:15 AM, R Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies,
>
>     that settles it for me, as I haven't enjoyed my own experiences
> with DSP, I'll order the KAF2.  And I'll consider the anti-ringing
> modification.
>
>      Ron VE8RT
>
> On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 03:32 -0700, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> > R Thompson wrote:
> > >
> > >      I would like to hear from someone who has the filter, what their
> > > impressions are.  I'm not overly impressed with the DSP as I've
> > > experienced it on my IC-703, but it can make a difference even if it no
> > > longer sounds natural.  So I'm leaning towards getting the filter.
> > >
> >
> > I have the KAF2 but to be honest I seldom use it.  For some reason I've
> > never found audio filters to be of much help.  My experience goes back to
> > the Autek QF-1A, SCAT filters, many different outboard DSP filters, etc.
> > I'm sure they work well for others but I've never found them to work for
> my
> > ears which seem to prefer wider audio (~350 Hz) before reaching my
> > ear/brain's DSP stage.  One exception is the K3's APF which is
> occasionally
> > helpful under certain conditions.
> >
> > Here's some more information on the KAF2 which might help you decide.  I
> > used KI6WX's standard AF1 and "low-ringing" AF2 values in my unit:
> >
> > http://home.pacbell.net/johngreb/kaf2_filter_modifications.pdf
> >
> > 73,  Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K2-question-on-options-tp6577413p6578509.html
> > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>
>
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[Gary D Krause]

Ron,

One thing that I forgot to mention is that even though I like the DSP in the
K2, I still use an external analog audio filter.  Sometimes it helps and
sometimes not.  I'm not completely sold on DSP as it now stands.  The
filtering is great but, the denoiser, as most denoisers that I have heard,
have a ways to go, in my opinion.  That includes IF as well as audio DSP.  I
still think that analog audio filters are very affective if not just as
affective.  But, then again, everyone seems to have a different opinion. ;-)

Gary, N7HTS




On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 07:15:14 -0600
  R Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies,
>
>     that settles it for me, as I haven't enjoyed my own experiences
> with DSP, I'll order the KAF2.  And I'll consider the anti-ringing
> modification.  
>
>      Ron VE8RT
>
> On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 03:32 -0700, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>> R Thompson wrote:
>> >
>> >      I would like to hear from someone who has the filter, what their
>> > impressions are.  I'm not overly impressed with the DSP as I've
>> > experienced it on my IC-703, but it can make a difference even if it no
>> > longer sounds natural.  So I'm leaning towards getting the filter.
>> >
>>
>> I have the KAF2 but to be honest I seldom use it.  For some reason I've
>> never found audio filters to be of much help.  My experience goes back to
>> the Autek QF-1A, SCAT filters, many different outboard DSP filters, etc.
>> I'm sure they work well for others but I've never found them to work for my
>> ears which seem to prefer wider audio (~350 Hz) before reaching my
>> ear/brain's DSP stage.  One exception is the K3's APF which is occasionally
>> helpful under certain conditions.
>>
>> Here's some more information on the KAF2 which might help you decide.  I
>> used KI6WX's standard AF1 and "low-ringing" AF2 values in my unit:
>>
>> http://home.pacbell.net/johngreb/kaf2_filter_modifications.pdf
>>
>> 73,  Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K2-question-on-options-tp6577413p6578509.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Ron,

I opted to include the KAF2 option when building my K2/100 rather than the
DSP option, and have found that the KAF2 audio filter is a worthwhile
addition to the receiver. FWIW I use a sidetone (beat note) between 350 and
400 Hz when copying CW, and when there is a lot of "on frequency" QRM the
KAF2 can help to dig out a weak DX SSB signal.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD (ex VE3GL, VE2AIO etc)


On July 13, 2011 at 05:28 Z,  R Thompson wrote:

>     I would like to hear from someone who has the filter, what their
> impressions are.  I'm not overly impressed with the DSP as I've
> experienced it on my IC-703, but it can make a difference even if it no
> longer sounds natural.  So I'm leaning towards getting the filter.







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