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K2 with MacOS Classic

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Jack Brindle

Re: K2 with MacOS Classic

Let's not get into an argument on this... The latest spec is RS-232F,
I believe. It now contains definitions for the DB25 and RJ-45
connectors and maybe a few others. At over $100 for the spec, I don't
have a strong desire to find out what else. Amazingly, it does not
contain definitions for the commonly-used DE9 connector.

In D-shell connectors, the second letter specifies the size of the
connector shell. There are many pinouts and arrangements used in B-
sized shells, including Sun's video connections. The 15 pin connector
uses an A shell, while the 9 an E shell. Now that we note this, I
seriously doubt that we have any chance of convincing the world to
use the correct nomenclature, are we...

And lastly, the Macintosh has never used RS-232 levels on its serial
ports. Instead, they (we for a while) used RS422 levels, centered
around zero volts. This allowed the creation of AppleTalk and its
predecessor, AppleBus. It also allowed interfacing to the outside
world and the commonly used RS-232 levels. All have now been phased
out and Apple uses Ethernet and USB on its systems.

OK, so now back to our regularly scheduled radio
discussions... ;-) :-) :-)

On Nov 22, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Just a tid-bit of information here (useless though it may be) - the
> RS232
> standard does specify a connector - and in fact it is the DB-25
> connector.
> Other connector configurations may carry the RS-232 signal levels and
> signalling protocol, and can come in many different flavors. The
> one we
> seem to be most concerned with is the DB-9 (more properly a DE-9)
> connector
> which has become the de-facto 'standard' on IBM compatible PCs.
> The Apple
> world has used mini-din connectors for most everything (including
> RS-232
> level signals) for a long time.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>
>> Actually RS-232 refers to the signal names and levels, although a
>> DE-9 (Cannon nomenclature) connector is often used (sometimes it is a
>> DB-25, particularly for modems).
>>
>> A good place to find information related to Macintosh radio
>> applications is the "ham-mac" mailing list <http://mailman.qth.net/
>> mailman/listinfo/ham-mac>.
>>
>
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-Jack Brindle, W6FB
=======================================================================

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Kevin Rock

Re: K2 with MacOS Classic --- Way OT!

I have a very nice Calcomp Graphics tablet which runs on the ADB
connection to my Mac IIvx. Unfortunately I cannot find a way to move the
pad over to my present Win2K box. Any thoughts on how to run Apple
Desktop Bus units on either USB or RS232 connections? The tablet is
powered by the ADB but I could run from external power. It is rather
large with an 18x24 inch active area but I was creating architectural
drawings and topographic maps at the time. Saves on having to splice
drawings together inside Photoshop too. If anyone has any hints on how to
get it running on this modern boxes I am all ears.
Kevin. KD5ONS

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:05:01 -0800, Jack Brindle
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Let's not get into an argument on this... The latest spec is RS-232F, I
> believe. It now contains definitions for the DB25 and RJ-45 connectors
> and maybe a few others. At over $100 for the spec, I don't have a
> strong desire to find out what else. Amazingly, it does not contain
> definitions for the commonly-used DE9 connector.
>
> In D-shell connectors, the second letter specifies the size of the
> connector shell. There are many pinouts and arrangements used in B-
> sized shells, including Sun's video connections. The 15 pin connector
> uses an A shell, while the 9 an E shell. Now that we note this, I
> seriously doubt that we have any chance of convincing the world to use
> the correct nomenclature, are we...
>
> And lastly, the Macintosh has never used RS-232 levels on its serial
> ports. Instead, they (we for a while) used RS422 levels, centered
> around zero volts. This allowed the creation of AppleTalk and its
> predecessor, AppleBus. It also allowed interfacing to the outside world
> and the commonly used RS-232 levels. All have now been phased out and
> Apple uses Ethernet and USB on its systems.
>
> OK, so now back to our regularly scheduled radio discussions... ;-)
> :-) :-)

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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Bill Coleman-2

Re: K2 with MacOS Classic

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3

On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> The Apple
> world has used mini-din connectors for most everything (including
> RS-232
> level signals) for a long time.

The original Macintosh used DB-9 connectors for the serial ports,
although the pin-outs were very different from the PC-style DB-9
connections of today.

With the Macintosh Plus, the DB-9 gave way to the mini DIN-8
connector, in part to save space to make room for the DB-25 which
connects the SCSI port.

Apple kept with the mini DIN-8 serial connectors until 1998, with the
iMac, and 1999, with the rest of the product line, where serial ports
were phased out entirely.

Although USB serial adapters are available with mini DIN-8 connectors
from a variety of vendors, I prefer those with the DB-9 connection,
since cables are a little easier to find, and certainly much easier
to build. (mini DIN-8 connectors are terribly difficult to solder)

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email]
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
-- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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k7nhb

Re: K2 with MacOS Classic

In reply to this post by Bekir Kemal Ataman

If the RS-232 is only using GND and TX/RX (cw switching), how does it
get rig control info from software like DXLab and HamRadioDeluxe?

I've heard you could fry the K2 RS232 board by using the wrong serial
cable - which I think is a design flaw as these cables (null modem vs
straight through) are not marked differently so it's easy to make a
mistake.

Should I open the cable I'm going to use up and make sure only three
pins are connected?
thanks and 73,
Paul

>DO NOT CONNECT RS-232 to your KIO2 without opening all unused (by RS-232)
>pins. ONly Sig Ground, TX and RX go from computer to K2. All other lines on
>the KIO2 are not RS-232 and can't tolerate the +- 15V the computer will
>supply.
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Don Wilhelm-3

RE: K2 AUX I/O connector

Paul and all,

Yes, you can fry some circuits in the K2 and KPA100 by connecting a PC
serial port to the K2 with a commonly available 9 pin cable - the connectors
fit, but it is wrong, and it is not a K2 unique problem.

We should all take the KIO2 and KPA100 'AUX I/O' designations that the K2
uses for that DE-9 connector seriously and explicitly - THIS IS NOT AN
RS-232 CONNECTOR - (and neither does it state that it is an RS-232 or a
serial connector). The fact that it just happens to be a connector that is
commonly used in the PC world as a connector for RS-232 serial port
connector does not make it one, and furthermore that does not say that any
and all similarly looking connectors are for the same use. As an example, I
work regularly with a sound mixer board that has DB-25 connectors on the
rear panel, but never would I make any assumption that they are RS-232
connectors - especially when they are marked something to the contrary. To
throw another fact into the pot and stir it a bit: the DB-25 connector on
many PC type computers is a printer port, even though that specific
connector is defined as an RS-232 connector, and similarly, all RCA jacks
are not for audio signals! One should never assume that a particular type
connector contains any particular configuration of wires - that is machine
specific information and the machine manual must be consulted before
reaching any conclusion about the use of a particular connector.

As a side note, RS-232 is a signalling protocol, and yes the oficial
standard does define some connectors (DB-25 and RJ-45), but the DE-9
connector is NOT defined in the RS-232 standard. The K2 AUX I/O connectors
use 3 pins that are RS-232 compatible, but even that does not make it an
RS-232 connector - one must check the machine documentation to determine the
pinout and directional usage of the connectors before cabling to them unless
you are following the machine manufacturer's specific instructions or using
the manufacturer's supplied cables.

Just as with multi-pin power connectors and microphone connectors, one
should know that the plug (or jack) and cable are compatible before
connecting them (that should be true for all cases, not just for the K2).
The KPA100 and KIO2 manuals give explicit instruction on the proper cable
configuration and provide suitable warnings about avoiding the use of a
'standard' (really means common) computer serial cable.

Apologies about the rant, but if it saves just one K2, it was worth it.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I've heard you could fry the K2 RS232 board by using the wrong serial
> cable - which I think is a design flaw as these cables (null modem vs
> straight through) are not marked differently so it's easy to make a
> mistake.
>
> Should I open the cable I'm going to use up and make sure only three
> pins are connected?
> thanks and 73,
> Paul
>

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Nigel-14

RE: K2 AUX I/O connector

Thanks Don, for the reminder.

I know in the past it has been posted to insert a pin in terminal 4 on the
K2 and remove the same from the corresponding plug to make them unique to
the K2.
How's the easiest way to do this? Can you pull the pin from the male plug
and insert it into the female one or do you need to wreck another one?

73, Nigel ZL2DF

> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:20:23 -0500
> From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K2 AUX I/O connector
> To: "designer" <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Paul and all,
>
> Yes, you can fry some circuits in the K2 and KPA100 by
> connecting a PC serial port to the K2 with a commonly
> available 9 pin cable - the connectors fit, but it is wrong,
> and it is not a K2 unique problem.

snip.

>
> Apologies about the rant, but if it saves just one K2, it was
> worth it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > I've heard you could fry the K2 RS232 board by using the
> wrong serial
> > cable - which I think is a design flaw as these cables
> (null modem vs
> > straight through) are not marked differently so it's easy to make a
> > mistake.
> >
> > Should I open the cable I'm going to use up and make sure
> only three
> > pins are connected? thanks and 73,
> > Paul
> >

Dan Barker

RE: K2 AUX I/O connector

Won't the soon to be available big AMP need the ALC Line?

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456

<snip>
I know in the past it has been posted to insert a pin in terminal 4 on the
K2 and remove the same from the corresponding plug to make them unique to
the K2.
</snip>

Of course, this is an excellent idea if you are QRP only, like me.
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Don Brown-4

Re: K2 AUX I/O connector

In reply to this post by Nigel-14

Hi

When I build a K2 I always solder all of the pins except pin 4 then pull out
pin 4 with pliers. If you have already soldered pin 4 then you could reheat
pin 4 and pull gently to remove it. You could also just cut off pin 4 as
instructed in the manual. The female connector has a little plastic plug
that fills the hole in pin 4 on both ends of the KPA100 ribbon cable. If you
lost the little plugs or don't have them you could use a tooth pick to stick
into pin 4 and then break it off or clip it with your flush cutters. This
all relates to the aux I/o connector on the control board not the 9 pin on
the back of the K2.

On the 9 pin connector on the back of the K2 you should build the connector
out of the parts supplied with the KPA100 or KIO2 and not try to use a
commercially built RS232 cable. Only three pins relate to RS232 the rest are
for control of Elecraft options like the KPA100 or KAT100 . Using a standard
RS232 cable will destroy several components on the control board or KPA100
if it is plugged into a computer RS232 port.

Don Brown
KD5NDB

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K2 AUX I/O connector

> Thanks Don, for the reminder.
>
> I know in the past it has been posted to insert a pin in terminal 4 on the
> K2 and remove the same from the corresponding plug to make them unique to
> the K2.
> How's the easiest way to do this? Can you pull the pin from the male
> plug
> and insert it into the female one or do you need to wreck another one?
>
>
> 73, Nigel ZL2DF
>
>
> > ------------------------------

Don Wilhelm-3

RE: K2 AUX I/O connector

In reply to this post by Nigel-14

Nigel,

I use a thin nosed set of pliers to bend and eventually break off the male
pin. On the K2 end (female), I just insert a wire or the tip of a toothpick
into pin 4 (use whatever will stay firmly in the hole). There is nothing
more to it - no magic or other tricks.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----

>
> Thanks Don, for the reminder.
>
> I know in the past it has been posted to insert a pin in terminal 4 on the
> K2 and remove the same from the corresponding plug to make them unique to
> the K2.
> How's the easiest way to do this? Can you pull the pin from the
> male plug
> and insert it into the female one or do you need to wreck another one?
>
>
> 73, Nigel ZL2DF
>
>

Don Wilhelm-3

RE: K2 AUX I/O connector

In reply to this post by Dan Barker

Dan,

I don't know if the big AMP will use ALC in any fashion, but it certainly
will not get it from the KPA100 AUX I/O pin 4 - that pin is marked on the
schematic as 'nc' - the KIO2 did pass along the internal ALC signal on pin
4, but it is not used with any of the Elecraft external equipment.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Won't the soon to be available big AMP need the ALC Line?
>
> Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456
>
> <snip>
> I know in the past it has been posted to insert a pin in terminal 4 on the
> K2 and remove the same from the corresponding plug to make them unique to
> the K2.
> </snip>
>
> Of course, this is an excellent idea if you are QRP only, like me.
> _______________________________________________
>