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K3/100 ERR12V repair information

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Malcolm-2

K3/100 ERR12V repair information

For those of you who want to solder the crimped Faston terminals you will find it difficult to push the covers back up the lead to allow you to do the soldering. Using a hot air gun on the terminals, as if you were applying heat shrink, will expand the insulation enough to let you push the insulator off the Faston terminal by gripping the metal through the open end with a pair of fine nosed pliers.

Once you have soldered the terminal the cover can be slid back and has enough grip still to remain in place. Excessive amounts of solder on the terminal will prevent the cover going back on properly so keep the solder to a minimum.

Regards

Malcolm
G0MIC

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Igor Sokolov-2

K3 TX delay

I wonder if there are plans to properly implement programmable TX delay in
K3 in the near future.
Current implementation works only with 8 ms delay. Attempts to increase this
setting to max 20 ms ruin CW timing especially at high CW speed.
Unfortunately 8 ms is too short for many of power amps, let alone other
external switching (stack control, external TX/RX switches etc) Separate
sequencer is obvious answer but carry additional box is not in line with my
purpose of light weight contest or dx peditions. Is there any other
solution?

73, Igor UA9CDC

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 TX delay

Igor,

Yes, longer T-R delay times can chop off the leading edge of CW elements.
The proper answer is to add QSK capability to the amplifier.
If that is not possible or desirable, you may have to use a PTT footswitch.

If the amplifier is not capable of QSK operation at the keying speeds
you use, there is not much that can be done in the K3 to compensate for
the amplifier inadequacy.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/15/2012 7:21 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> I wonder if there are plans to properly implement programmable TX delay in
> K3 in the near future.
> Current implementation works only with 8 ms delay. Attempts to increase this
> setting to max 20 ms ruin CW timing especially at high CW speed.
> Unfortunately 8 ms is too short for many of power amps, let alone other
> external switching (stack control, external TX/RX switches etc) Separate
> sequencer is obvious answer but carry additional box is not in line with my
> purpose of light weight contest or dx peditions. Is there any other
> solution?
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>

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alsopb

Re: K3 TX delay

Alternatively buy any Kenwood, Yeasu et al which has this figured out.
This has been a long standing problem with the K3.

I'd like to hear from Elecraft that it "can't be fixed".

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 2/15/2012 9:07 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Igor,
>
> Yes, longer T-R delay times can chop off the leading edge of CW elements.
> The proper answer is to add QSK capability to the amplifier.
> If that is not possible or desirable, you may have to use a PTT footswitch.
>
> If the amplifier is not capable of QSK operation at the keying speeds
> you use, there is not much that can be done in the K3 to compensate for
> the amplifier inadequacy.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 2/15/2012 7:21 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
>
>> I wonder if there are plans to properly implement programmable TX delay in
>> K3 in the near future.
>> Current implementation works only with 8 ms delay. Attempts to increase this
>> setting to max 20 ms ruin CW timing especially at high CW speed.
>> Unfortunately 8 ms is too short for many of power amps, let alone other
>> external switching (stack control, external TX/RX switches etc) Separate
>> sequencer is obvious answer but carry additional box is not in line with my
>> purpose of light weight contest or dx peditions. Is there any other
>> solution?
>>
>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>>
>>
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Matthew Pitts

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Igor Sokolov-2

I suspect that as far as Wayne and Eric are concerned, any amplifier that doesn't handle qsk is broken, so the K3 doesn't need fixed.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

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WE5ST

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by alsopb

I'd like to hear that it CAN be fixed. That would be better.

On Feb 15, 2012, at 8:23 AM, briana <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alternatively buy any Kenwood, Yeasu et al which has this figured out.
> This has been a long standing problem with the K3.
>
> I'd like to hear from Elecraft that it "can't be fixed".
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> On 2/15/2012 9:07 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Igor,
>>
>> Yes, longer T-R delay times can chop off the leading edge of CW elements.
>> The proper answer is to add QSK capability to the amplifier.
>> If that is not possible or desirable, you may have to use a PTT footswitch.
>>
>> If the amplifier is not capable of QSK operation at the keying speeds
>> you use, there is not much that can be done in the K3 to compensate for
>> the amplifier inadequacy.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>
>> On 2/15/2012 7:21 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if there are plans to properly implement programmable TX delay in
>>> K3 in the near future.
>>> Current implementation works only with 8 ms delay. Attempts to increase this
>>> setting to max 20 ms ruin CW timing especially at high CW speed.
>>> Unfortunately 8 ms is too short for many of power amps, let alone other
>>> external switching (stack control, external TX/RX switches etc) Separate
>>> sequencer is obvious answer but carry additional box is not in line with my
>>> purpose of light weight contest or dx peditions. Is there any other
>>> solution?
>>>
>>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>>
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>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>>
>>
>>
>
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Jack - WE5ST

Rick Stealey

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by alsopb

>
> Alternatively buy any Kenwood, Yaesu et al which has this figured out.
> This has been a long standing problem with the K3.

Brian,
Could you please explain what you think is deficient in the K3?
You close the key, the KEY OUT line activates, the K3 waits 8 ms (minimum, adjustable up to 20 ms)
and then the cw character begins. The 8-20 ms is to give the amplifier time to close its relays so it isn't
damaged. On key up the rf ends before the KEY OUT line drops so the amplifier can't switch
while it is outputting, unlike ICOM rigs.
What is it the K3 should do differently?

Rick K2XT

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John Ragle

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Matthew Pitts

110% agreement. If you want a voice-only machine, just look for "semi
break-in" in the specs. (You could also look for "AM only.") Don's
comment about the merit of trying to fix a broken amplifier by modifying
the K3 is right on target. How about a big knife switch on the wall?

John Ragle -- W1ZI

/=====/

On 2/15/2012 9:59 AM, Matthew Pitts wrote:

> I suspect that as far as Wayne and Eric are concerned, any amplifier that doesn't handle qsk is broken, so the K3 doesn't need [to be] fixed.
>
> Matthew Pitts
> N8OHU
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
>
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>
>

--
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Rick Stealey

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Matthew Pitts

> I suspect that as far as Wayne and Eric are concerned, any amplifier that doesn't handle qsk is broken, so the K3 doesn't need fixed.
>
> Matthew Pitts

Matt,
So the concern is with amps that switch in, let's say 30 ms, for example?
You mean the 20 ms setting is still too fast for those amps?

Rick K2XT

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by alsopb

I think you are confusing two things.

The hold time after RF output before receive can be as long as you want.
The time between key down and RF output in the K3 can be from 8 ms to
about 14 ms before keying is affected. It goes up to 20 ms, but at this
point, the keyed elements are shortened. Most radios do not allow
adjustment to this delay at all. Some (ICOM) radios actually drop the
amp key output before RF output ends!

I agree with Don that for fast CW QSK the amplifier should be capable of
switching in about 5 ms. This is not hard to achieve, but you can't do
it with cheap open-frame relays. The original SB-220 doesn't represent
the state of the art anymore.

For special situations like mast-mounted preamps, etc. you may need a
sequencer. This won't provide QSK but will ensure that everything
changes over properly. I don't think the K3 is in any way lacking as far
as QSK sequencing is concerned.

On 2/15/12 6:23 AM, briana wrote:

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Rick Stealey

Rick,

> So the concern is with amps that switch in, let's say 30 ms, for
> example? You mean the 20 ms setting is still too fast for those
> amps?

No, the problem is with straight key or an external keyer. TX
Delay delays the onset of RF by the correct 8 - 20 ms but it does
not also delay the entire incoming CW so the elements get truncated.
This may not be an issue for those who are not using QSK but with
QSK the CW elements are truncated.

One solution is to use a keyer like the K1EL WinKey that permits
adding a fixed length to the elements to compensate for the K3's
"bit clipping". However, the proper solution would be for the K3
to extend each element by the length of TX Delay when in QSK and
extend the initial element by TX Delay when in semi-break in.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2/15/2012 10:08 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:

>
>
>
>> I suspect that as far as Wayne and Eric are concerned, any amplifier that doesn't handle qsk is broken, so the K3 doesn't need fixed.
>>
>> Matthew Pitts
>
> Matt,
> So the concern is with amps that switch in, let's say 30 ms, for example?
> You mean the 20 ms setting is still too fast for those amps?
>
> Rick K2XT
>
>
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Richard Ferch

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Igor Sokolov-2

I think there's a bit more to it than that, Joe. My recollection, based
on my experience in SS CW a couple of years back, is that if CONFIG:TX
DLY is set to 20 ms, the K3's CW (with an external keyer) is "choppy"
even when using semi-breakin or PTT. I can't be 100% sure whether I was
using VOX or PTT, but I know for certain I was not using QSK, and I got
reports of "distinctive-sounding" CW, not just a truncated first
element. Setting CONFIG:TX DLY to 8 ms appears to have fixed it.

73,
Rich VE3KI

W4TV wrote:

> One solution is to use a keyer like the K1EL WinKey that permits
> adding a fixed length to the elements to compensate for the K3's
> "bit clipping". However, the proper solution would be for the K3
> to extend each element by the length of TX Delay when in QSK and
> extend the initial element by TX Delay when in semi-break in.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 TX delay

Rich,

Since I don't use an amplifier, I can't say for sure. However, TX
Delay should only be applied to the first element in semi-break in
(VOX) or PTT (and with PTT, TX Delay should be triggered by PTT not
Key In).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2/15/2012 11:04 AM, Richard Ferch wrote:

> I think there's a bit more to it than that, Joe. My recollection, based
> on my experience in SS CW a couple of years back, is that if CONFIG:TX
> DLY is set to 20 ms, the K3's CW (with an external keyer) is "choppy"
> even when using semi-breakin or PTT. I can't be 100% sure whether I was
> using VOX or PTT, but I know for certain I was not using QSK, and I got
> reports of "distinctive-sounding" CW, not just a truncated first
> element. Setting CONFIG:TX DLY to 8 ms appears to have fixed it.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
>
> W4TV wrote:
>
>> One solution is to use a keyer like the K1EL WinKey that permits
>> adding a fixed length to the elements to compensate for the K3's
>> "bit clipping". However, the proper solution would be for the K3
>> to extend each element by the length of TX Delay when in QSK and
>> extend the initial element by TX Delay when in semi-break in.
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alsopb

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

The proper solution is NOT WINKEY. The QSD occurs with an external
keyer as well as internal keyer.

The fix has to be within the K3.

73 DE Brian/K3KO

On 2/15/2012 10:30 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> Rick,
>
>
>> So the concern is with amps that switch in, let's say 30 ms, for
>> example? You mean the 20 ms setting is still too fast for those
>> amps?
>>
> No, the problem is with straight key or an external keyer. TX
> Delay delays the onset of RF by the correct 8 - 20 ms but it does
> not also delay the entire incoming CW so the elements get truncated.
> This may not be an issue for those who are not using QSK but with
> QSK the CW elements are truncated.
>
> One solution is to use a keyer like the K1EL WinKey that permits
> adding a fixed length to the elements to compensate for the K3's
> "bit clipping". However, the proper solution would be for the K3
> to extend each element by the length of TX Delay when in QSK and
> extend the initial element by TX Delay when in semi-break in.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2/15/2012 10:08 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I suspect that as far as Wayne and Eric are concerned, any amplifier that doesn't handle qsk is broken, so the K3 doesn't need fixed.
>>>
>>> Matthew Pitts
>>>
>> Matt,
>> So the concern is with amps that switch in, let's say 30 ms, for example?
>> You mean the 20 ms setting is still too fast for those amps?
>>
>> Rick K2XT
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
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alsopb

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Rick Stealey

rick,
I can't tell you what's wrong but I cqn give you the symptoms. This was
several years ago.

The story goes as follows. One day I sat down at the K3 for a CW
session. Unlike past sessions, at 25wpm and above the was erratic
timing of the characters. I thought it was my keyer. Plugged keyer
into other rig and no keying was OK. So I tried using the K3 internal
keyer, same QSD. This was independent of semi or full break in. No
amp was in line at this time.

A post to the Elecraft reflector suggested looking the the value of
TXDLY. I though that crazy since it had been set by me forever at
8ms. Sure enough it was at 20 ms (how I don't know). Returning the
value to 8ms solved it.

Amplifiers only enter the picture if you don't want them to hot switch.
That means delaying the RF until the amp relay switches. On older amps
that could be 15ms or more. Thus one wants the TXDLY to be 15 ms or more.
There are a lot of amps out there like this still. The suggestion to
convert them to QSK means an expenditure of about $400, requires
gutting parts of the amp and is probably amp specific.

Now we have a problem, you might achieve the TXDLY in the K3 but you
can't send good CW.

This is not the case for other rigs. For example, Kenwoods work just
fine at 20 ms and my old MP worked fine at some value in that ball park.

You have to ask Elecraft for an explanation.

This is a years' old problem that still continues.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 2/15/2012 10:06 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:

>
>
>> Alternatively buy any Kenwood, Yaesu et al which has this figured out.
>> This has been a long standing problem with the K3.
>>
> Brian,
> Could you please explain what you think is deficient in the K3?
> You close the key, the KEY OUT line activates, the K3 waits 8 ms (minimum, adjustable up to 20 ms)
> and then the cw character begins. The 8-20 ms is to give the amplifier time to close its relays so it isn't
> damaged. On key up the rf ends before the KEY OUT line drops so the amplifier can't switch
> while it is outputting, unlike ICOM rigs.
> What is it the K3 should do differently?
>
> Rick K2XT
>
>
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>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by alsopb

On 2/15/2012 8:24 AM, briana wrote:
> The fix has to be within the K3.

It all depends on exactly what problem you're trying to fix, and how bad
the problem is. Think about it -- a T/R relay has delays associated
both with pulling in AND dropping out. Granted they may be different
delays. These delays set a practical limit on how fast the amp is able
to work on CW, no matter what is done in the exciter to delay keying.

BUT -- there is an important difference between delaying the ONSET of CW
after PTT is asserted, which seems to be what the K3 is doing, and
delaying the entire CW signal, which is what is needed to avoid
shortening the keying elements at higher speeds. There would still be a
limit on keying speed corresponding to how fast the T/R relay can
switch, but that limit could be raised to a higher speed.

Put me on the list of those who urge Elecraft to attempt the latter,
with the requirement that the delay be applied both to the internal
keyer and to keying via the straight key input (where computer-generated
keying is applied). I suspect that the limitation is either DSP cycles
or RAM, or both, and these limitations were set at the original
design.stage.

73, Jim K9YC
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by alsopb

On 2/15/2012 8:39 AM, briana wrote:
> On older amps that could be 15ms or more.

The issue is not OLDER amps, it is poorly designed amps (or el cheapo
amps). My Ten Tec Titan 425s, which were designed in the late 70s and
built in the early 80s, were designed for QSK, and key reliably at
8msec. They use good vacuum relays (the same used by Alpha) and smart
control circuitry to positively prevent hot switching. El cheapo amps
with open frame relays (like some MFJ/Ameritrons I've seen) are never
going to follow CW, no matter what is done at the rig.

Now, there ARE techniques that can be used to speed up a slow relay.
Quite a few years ago, K6XX, a top contester and superb EE who now works
for Elecraft, designed a simple circuit that adds a short, higher
voltage spike to the keying signal, and causes the relay to pull in a
bit faster. This circuit must be added to the amp.

73, Jim K9YC
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Igor Sokolov-2

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Richard Ferch

You are correct Rich.
I always use PTT foot switch. Even then longer then 8ms setting of TX delay
affects CW. I do not understand why. It is not brake in. It is just switched
to TX and stays put. Why CW should be affected by this setting?
My K3 is below 2000 serial number. I have just checked with my friend's
above 6000 serial unit. It is still the same. BTW the internal delay
between PTT into the radio and KEY OUT signal from the radio is about 6-6.5
ms. I assume there is only one relay in between. So if we have two relays
in series externally or even one relay a bit more powerful (and therefore
slower then the internal one) we have to use external sequencer. Even most
popular power vacuum relays here have make time of 12-15 ms which precludes
their use without external sequencer.
Thank you everybody for you comments. It looks like external sequencer is
the only solution. Pity.

73, Igor UA9CDC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Ferch" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 TX delay

>I think there's a bit more to it than that, Joe. My recollection, based
> on my experience in SS CW a couple of years back, is that if CONFIG:TX
> DLY is set to 20 ms, the K3's CW (with an external keyer) is "choppy"
> even when using semi-breakin or PTT. I can't be 100% sure whether I was
> using VOX or PTT, but I know for certain I was not using QSK, and I got
> reports of "distinctive-sounding" CW, not just a truncated first
> element. Setting CONFIG:TX DLY to 8 ms appears to have fixed it.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
>
> W4TV wrote:
>
>> One solution is to use a keyer like the K1EL WinKey that permits
>> adding a fixed length to the elements to compensate for the K3's
>> "bit clipping". However, the proper solution would be for the K3
>> to extend each element by the length of TX Delay when in QSK and
>> extend the initial element by TX Delay when in semi-break in.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 TX delay

On 2/15/2012 12:06 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> I always use PTT foot switch. Even then longer then 8ms setting of TX
> delay affects CW. I do not understand why.

Apparently the K3 applies the TX Delay value to the CW input (key in)
regardless of Key Out status (e.g., is the radio already in transmit)
or VOX/QSK/PTT mode. However, I have not heard the effect when using
PTT input - only when using QSK - and I can restore normal operation by
adding "Keying compensation" (a fixed extension of each element) equal
to the TX Delay value in WinKey.

> Thank you everybody for you comments. It looks like external
> sequencer is the only solution. Pity.

I think most would agree that Elecraft should either delay the CW
element or add a fixed compensation equal to the TX Delay (which would
achieve the same result). "Bit clipping" is a problem, particularly at
higher speeds.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2/15/2012 12:06 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> You are correct Rich.
> I always use PTT foot switch. Even then longer then 8ms setting of TX delay
> affects CW. I do not understand why. It is not brake in. It is just switched
> to TX and stays put. Why CW should be affected by this setting?
> My K3 is below 2000 serial number. I have just checked with my friend's
> above 6000 serial unit. It is still the same. BTW the internal delay
> between PTT into the radio and KEY OUT signal from the radio is about 6-6.5
> ms. I assume there is only one relay in between. So if we have two relays
> in series externally or even one relay a bit more powerful (and therefore
> slower then the internal one) we have to use external sequencer. Even most
> popular power vacuum relays here have make time of 12-15 ms which precludes
> their use without external sequencer.
> Thank you everybody for you comments. It looks like external sequencer is
> the only solution. Pity.
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Ferch"<[hidden email]>
> To:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 TX delay
>
>
>> I think there's a bit more to it than that, Joe. My recollection, based
>> on my experience in SS CW a couple of years back, is that if CONFIG:TX
>> DLY is set to 20 ms, the K3's CW (with an external keyer) is "choppy"
>> even when using semi-breakin or PTT. I can't be 100% sure whether I was
>> using VOX or PTT, but I know for certain I was not using QSK, and I got
>> reports of "distinctive-sounding" CW, not just a truncated first
>> element. Setting CONFIG:TX DLY to 8 ms appears to have fixed it.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>>
>> W4TV wrote:
>>
>>> One solution is to use a keyer like the K1EL WinKey that permits
>>> adding a fixed length to the elements to compensate for the K3's
>>> "bit clipping". However, the proper solution would be for the K3
>>> to extend each element by the length of TX Delay when in QSK and
>>> extend the initial element by TX Delay when in semi-break in.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

k5oai

Re: K3 TX delay

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

confused by all this K3 TX DLY chatter
please answer the following question(s)

my cw operation is with Simi QSK @ 13-25wpm
sometimes with a straight key
but most times using the internal K3 keyer

so are you saying.....
I shouldn't run the K3 with my older AL-811 (3 tube)
or I will be transmitting these chopped off cw characters

or would this only happen if I were to use FAST QSK
or is it ok in either Slow or Fast
as long as I stay below about 30wpm

also, if I can use the K3 and AL-811,
in either or both QSK modes,
what TX DLY setting should be used

--
GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 2/15/2012 11:03 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> El cheapo amps
> with open frame relays (like some MFJ/Ameritrons I've seen) are never
> going to follow CW, no matter what is done at the rig.
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