K3 #1037 in IARU contest
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I don't agree that's the best way to copy weak signals...but that's another issue in itself. http://www.eham.net/articles/9982 (A few days I broke that record at 26 uW). The sticker on my BM-10 states "IMP 32 OHM", which is what I measure for each side. Using it: 50 Hz BW, max RF Gain, AGC-Fast and CONFIG: AF GAIN HI (default setting). AF GAIN is set to 12 o'clock for a comfortable level listening to a dummy load (i.e. strictly RX background noise). With any sort of band noise I would need even less AF GAIN. The 1 uV output (-107 dBm) from an XG1 is uncomfortably high and I backed off AF GAIN to ~10 o'clock for that. Both of my Heil ProSet headsets measure >200 ohms per side and they also have plenty of output with the K3. BTW I normally have CONFIG: AF GAIN set to LO for all my headphones. I can't explain others' problems but all 3 of my Heil headsets have plenty of AF gain with the K3...even for very weak signals buried in noise. 73, Bill |
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Bill,
I may have exaggerated when I said the noise needs to be quite loud, but what I meant was the it should be loud enough to be easily heard, or else the desired signal won't be easily heard. (I do think I can copy a signal that is about equal to the noise level.) Probably when you copy a very weak signal, you also have it right at the noise level? We may differ on what is a comfortable signal level of course. The bottom line w.r.t. the FT-1000 (D) was that I could not without straining copy through the Heil headset (but could copy through speaker) with dual 250 Hz xtal filters and the audio cw filter on, and the audio volume control at max. I sent the Heil headset back to the store. I got this equipment back around 92/93, and think at that time Heil may have had only one headset model available (neglecting any variations in attached microphones). Do you know what the model designation might have been on that headset? Maybe they have changed ones manufactured later to be more sensitive? Thanks for the specific information on the K3 settings. My K3 is not here yet, and I am trying to understand if I need to plan to get an outboard speaker/amp in order to get sufficient audio volume for those weak cw signals on 10m and 6m where the band noise is low. Erik K7TV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill W4ZV" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio output v headphone sensitiviy > > > > K7TV wrote: >> >> What is adequate headphone sensitivity may be highly dependent on >> operating mode and rig selectivity. >> Case in point: Many years ago I ordered an FT-1000 and a Heil headset >> (forget which model). Headset volume was fine for voice, and for CW using >> a wide filter. But the FT-1000, like the K3, can be set to very narrow CW >> filtering. This brings down the noise to far below what you have at more >> "normal" bandwidth. On a quiet band one can then work CW stations that >> are >> extremely weak. In my case, that is where the Heil headset became >> unuseable, because of inadequate volume. In my opinion, when trying to >> copy the weakest possible CW signal for a given bandwidth, the gain needs >> to be high enough that the noise level is quite loud. I sent the Heil >> headset back to the store. This episode begs the question: The K3 being >> famous for its "quiet" receiver, does it have enough rx audio gain to >> provide a loud background noise level in CW mode using the 50 Hz >> bandwidth, for an average speaker or for a reasonable headset (not >> Heil!)? >> > > I don't agree that's the best way to copy weak signals...but that's > another > issue in itself. > > http://www.eham.net/articles/9982 (A few days I broke that record at 26 > uW). > > The sticker on my BM-10 states "IMP 32 OHM", which is what I measure for > each side. Using it: > > 50 Hz BW, max RF Gain, AGC-Fast and CONFIG: AF GAIN HI (default setting). > AF GAIN is set to 12 o'clock for a comfortable level listening to a dummy > load (i.e. strictly RX background noise). With any sort of band noise I > would need even less AF GAIN. The 1 uV output (-107 dBm) from an XG1 is > uncomfortably high and I backed off AF GAIN to ~10 o'clock for that. Both > of my Heil ProSet headsets measure >200 ohms per side and they also have > plenty of output with the K3. BTW I normally have CONFIG: AF GAIN set to > LO > for all my headphones. > > I can't explain others' problems but all 3 of my Heil headsets have plenty > of AF gain with the K3...even for very weak signals buried in noise. > > 73, Bill > > > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/K3---1037-in-IARU--contest-tp525033p527732.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
I've been using a Heil headset for many years with my FT 1000D, and now
also the K3. I have never felt there is inadequate volume from either rig through the headphones. Using narrow filters on CW, the volume settings are about 60 per cent of full volume. And often I have to back off from that. Bob N7UA Bill W4ZV wrote: > > > K7TV wrote: >> What is adequate headphone sensitivity may be highly dependent on >> operating mode and rig selectivity. >> Case in point: Many years ago I ordered an FT-1000 and a Heil headset >> (forget which model). Headset volume was fine for voice, and for CW using >> a wide filter. But the FT-1000, like the K3, can be set to very narrow CW >> filtering. This brings down the noise to far below what you have at more >> "normal" bandwidth. On a quiet band one can then work CW stations that are >> extremely weak. In my case, that is where the Heil headset became >> unuseable, because of inadequate volume. In my opinion, when trying to >> copy the weakest possible CW signal for a given bandwidth, the gain needs >> to be high enough that the noise level is quite loud. I sent the Heil >> headset back to the store. This episode begs the question: The K3 being >> famous for its "quiet" receiver, does it have enough rx audio gain to >> provide a loud background noise level in CW mode using the 50 Hz >> bandwidth, for an average speaker or for a reasonable headset (not Heil!)? >> > > I don't agree that's the best way to copy weak signals...but that's another > issue in itself. > > http://www.eham.net/articles/9982 (A few days I broke that record at 26 > uW). > > The sticker on my BM-10 states "IMP 32 OHM", which is what I measure for > each side. Using it: > > 50 Hz BW, max RF Gain, AGC-Fast and CONFIG: AF GAIN HI (default setting). > AF GAIN is set to 12 o'clock for a comfortable level listening to a dummy > load (i.e. strictly RX background noise). With any sort of band noise I > would need even less AF GAIN. The 1 uV output (-107 dBm) from an XG1 is > uncomfortably high and I backed off AF GAIN to ~10 o'clock for that. Both > of my Heil ProSet headsets measure >200 ohms per side and they also have > plenty of output with the K3. BTW I normally have CONFIG: AF GAIN set to LO > for all my headphones. > > I can't explain others' problems but all 3 of my Heil headsets have plenty > of AF gain with the K3...even for very weak signals buried in noise. > > 73, Bill > > > > > > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 audio output v headphone sensitiviy
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In reply to this post by alsopb
Hi Brian and all. I have an old pair of Kenwood HS5 headphones and plugged
them in to my factory assembled K3 after donning them. Had to back the AF gain back by about 10% for comfortable listening. I have a question that someone out there with an Elecraft/Heil MD2 mic may be able to help with. I bought it second hand and the previous owner had re-wired to suit Icom. I now wish to use it on my K3 and would like to get the wire color code or find out which color wire the +8v goes to. I e-mailed Heil but they can't or won't tell me. Can any one with an MD2 give me the pin outs by color pllease? John Cl;are VK1CJ. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Alsop" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio output v headphone sensitiviy > From the K3 manual page 20 > "Sterero or Mono 16 ohm min. recommended" > > 32 ohm earphones are quite common. Not surprising 16 ohms is the > paralleled configuration of the two 32 ohm individual ear sides for mono. > > I first ran into 32 ohm earphones for an FT1000MP. > > 73 de Brian/K3KO > > WILLIS COOKE wrote: > >>I have not heard of 32 ohm impedance headphones. The >>DC resistance is not the impedance, but a 600 ohm pair >>might have 32 ohms resistance measured with an ohm >>meter. Of course, I don't know what the British >>military used. The US used 600 ohm. >> >>Measuring several headsets resistance of the headsets >>in my shack shows all kinds of resistances. Some >>Realistic (Radio Shack) stereo 8 ohms show 9 ohms with >>the stereo speakers wired in parallel. A Sony Walkman >>stereo headset measures 30 ohms on each speaker. A >>Heil BM10 measures 32 ohms for each speaker. A Heil >>Pro-Set shows 215 Ohms on each speaker. A Telex Model >>A610-1 Military Surplus mono headset labeled 600 ohms >>measures 285 ohms. A Telex A1210 mono headset to FAA >>Spec TSO C57 measures 615 ohms. All of them work OK >>with my TS-850 without major audio gain adjustments >>from the speaker. >> >>Cookie, K5EWJ >> --- David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>>They are 32ohm: don't know if the ear pieces are >>>wired in series or parallel. Didn't observe the manufacturer, but I'll >>>get back to them in a couple of days and let you know. >>> >>>David >>>G3UNA >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]> >>>To: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]> >>>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:26 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio output v headphone >>>sensitiviy >>> >>> >>> >>>>The aircraft headphones are probably 600 ohm >>>>impedance. Most ham headphones are 8 ohms. >>>> >>>>--- David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>It has recently astonished me just how deaf some >>>>>headphones are. In my work >>>>>I was given aircraft headphones that needed 2W to >>>>>get the same audio output >>>>>as our own make that needed about 20mW. That >>>>> >>>quick >>> >>>>>test with the spl meter >>>>>needs to be repeated on a calibrated jig and I'll >>>>> >>>be >>> >>>>>taking my ham phones in >>>>>to get them checked. I'll post the results here. >>>>> >>>>>David >>>>>G3UNA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> >>>>>To: "Elecraft Reflector" >>>>> >>><[hidden email]> >>> >>>>>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:01 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU >>>>> >>>contest >>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen >>>>>> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at >>>>>>> >>>all >>> >>>>>if the K3 had more >>>>> >>>>>>>audio available in the headfones from both the >>>>>>> >>>>>monitor and sidetone. >>>>> >>>>>>Fred, >>>>>> >>>>>>There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu. >>>>>> >>>>>Check that it's set to >>>>> >>>>>>"HI." If you need more, maybe I can help you >>>>>> >>>find >>> >>>>>headphones with higher >>>>> >>>>>>voltage sensitivity. >>>>>> >>>>>>Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Elecraft mailing list >>>>>Post to: [hidden email] >>>>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>>>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>>>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Willis 'Cookie' Cooke >>>>K5EWJ >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Elecraft mailing list >>Post to: [hidden email] >>You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: > 270.4.10/1550 - Release Date: 7/13/2008 5:58 PM > > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
Hi Erik,
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Erik N Basilier <[hidden email]> wrote: > Bill, > > I may have exaggerated when I said the noise needs to be quite loud, > but what I meant was the it should be loud enough to be easily heard, > or else the desired signal won't be easily heard. (I do think I can copy > a signal that is about equal to the noise level.) Probably when you > copy a very weak signal, you also have it right at the noise level? > We may differ on what is a comfortable signal level of course. Yes of course the signal is at (or even below) the noise floor but I would not want the combination very loud or your ears might go into attenuation reflex mode and attenuate everything. K3NA wrote a series of articles about this some time back in the NCJ. Here's Part 1: http://www.ncjweb.com/novdec06scace1.pdf I don't like extremely narrow filters for weak signals. I find my ears' internal 50 Hz DSP works better with a wider sample of white noise and signal than listening through a 50 Hz BW filter. Some people like extremely narrow filters for weak signals but that doesn't work for me (however it does work well for moderate signals with extremely strong QRM nearby). > The bottom line w.r.t. the FT-1000 (D) was that I could not without > straining copy through the Heil headset (but could copy through > speaker) with dual 250 Hz xtal filters and the audio cw filter on, > and the audio volume control at max. I sent the Heil headset back > to the store. I got this equipment back around 92/93, and think at > that time Heil may have had only one headset model available > (neglecting any variations in attached microphones). Do you know > what the model designation might have been on that headset? > Maybe they have changed ones manufactured later to be more > sensitive? I seem to recall Heil only offered the Pro-Set around that time. I think they had temporarily obsoleted the BM-10 and had not yet introduced the Pro-Set Plus (which I can't use since it's headband hurts my head). I believe the Pro-Set series has always been ~200 ohms impedance but I've never had any problems using mine with several rigs (TS-930S, FT-1000MP, Orion and now K3). BTW I never use a speaker and cannot imagine one being better than a good set of headphones. I love the Extreme Isolation EX-29 because it has excellent rejection of external noise like amplifier fans, etc. > Thanks for the specific information on the K3 settings. My K3 > is not here yet, and I am trying to understand if I need to plan > to get an outboard speaker/amp in order to get sufficient > audio volume for those weak cw signals on 10m and 6m > where the band noise is low. I would wait until you get your K3 before doing anything. I'm not sure why some are having low audio output but that's not the case for my K3 with any headphones. Could it be that CONFIG: AF GAIN is set LO instead of the default HI? 73, Bill W4ZV _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ed Gray W0SD
Hi, Ed, Thanks for taking the time to write all this down. It is some great information. I can vouch for the fact that W0SD was all over the bands. We had you in the log several times. 73, John, WA6L (contest call was W6B) <quote author="Ed Gray W0SD"> The IARU contest was the first chance to try SN#1037 out in more crowed band conditions. We were multi-op single transmitter so three persons used the radio and we were both CW and SSB. It was a serious effort with 1967 contacts in the 24 hours and over 1,000,000 points. All the operators did not have any trouble adapting to the radio having never used a K3 before. What a joy to have a radio that gets around a multitude of problems most radios have such as the FT-1000D 1000MP, TX-950SDX, Mark V, etc. in setting up for a contest. CW with the computer into the key jack and paddle in the paddle jack using the internal keyer is Plug and Play. |
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In reply to this post by David Cutter
I have a set of headphones, made by Newcome, that measure 543 Ohms
DC.... They are the old magnet-diaphragm type from the late '30's early '40's and have such a limited frequency response that they are ideal for Ham work... They seem to work with just about everything I have ;^)) -- Dave G. KK7SS '65 MK III Sprite in Richland, WA "Always be wary of any helpful item that weighs less than its operating manual" Terry Pratchett _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: MD2 mic pinout (was: K3 audio output v headphone sensitiviy)
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In reply to this post by John Clare
John,
I disassembled the mic plug on my MD2. Here is the wiring by color (warning, it may be different on yours if Heil used a different cable, one never knows). Pin 1 - AF - White Pin 2 - PTT - Red Pin 7 - AF Return (gnd) - shield and black wires Pin 8 - PTT Return (gnd) - Blue. If you have the dongle for the 1/4 inch footswitch jack, it connects with its red wire to pin 2 and its white wire to pin 8. There is no need for any separate 8 volt line (pins 3, 4, 5 and 6 are not connected). For the K3, set the mic bias on in the menu - on a K2 the 5600 ohm resistor on the back of the K2 mic jack between pins 1 and 6 takes care of the bias - of course the K2 mic configuration header should be wired with all pins straight across. 73, Don W3FPR John Clare wrote: > Hi Brian and all. I have an old pair of Kenwood HS5 headphones and > plugged them in to my factory assembled K3 after donning them. Had to > back the AF gain back by about 10% for comfortable listening. I have a > question that someone out there with an Elecraft/Heil MD2 mic may be > able to help with. I bought it second hand and the previous owner had > re-wired to suit Icom. I now wish to use it on my K3 and would like to > get the wire color code or find out which color wire the +8v goes to. > I e-mailed Heil but they can't or won't tell me. Can any one with an > MD2 give me the pin outs by color pllease? John Cl;are VK1CJ. > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill W4ZV" <[hidden email]> > > I can't explain others' problems but all 3 of my Heil headsets have plenty > of AF gain with the K3...even for very weak signals buried in noise. > > 73, Bill Headphone comfort has been a challange for me! I have several ProSets - They have good audio, like Bill said. I don't like them because they are uncomfortable - after about 5 or 6 hours my left ear hurts. The JBL noise canceling headphones feel better, sound better, but after 5 or 6 hours they hurt. The $35, made in China, noise cancelling headset from Meijer (like a WalMart or KMart) are very good for the long run, but they don't sound as good. Just picked up a very good pair of computer gaming headset and electret boom mike attached. 150 ohms impedance and so far they sound great .... I guess NAQP in Aug will be the test to see if they can last over 5 hours. If they do, I'll have a couple Heil Pro sets for sale. 73 Hank K8DD _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by alsopb
>Somewhere there is now a disconnect between headphone manufacturers >and rig manufacturers. I suppose there may be some regulations or >guidelines that may be getting in the way too. However, for many >of us, it's too late to protect against somewhat diminished >hearing. We need something which puts out the volume needed.. I've been using the original version of these and they work great with the K3. http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Bill Tippett wrote:
> I would wait until you get your K3 before doing anything. I'm not > sure why some are having low audio output but that's not the case for > my K3 with any headphones. Could it be that CONFIG: AF GAIN is set LO > instead of the default HI? > > Folks, Bill is right, wait until the rig is in your shack before making any decisions. The K-rigs will work with a variety of headphones. You get to decide, after all, they are your ears. I started this thread ... "It seemed like a good idea at the time." One of these days I will learn :-) None of my 3 "K-rigs" [KX1, K2, K3] has enough audio *for me*." I'm nearly deaf and have been since one night 40 years ago on the other side of the planet. I did not mean to imply: That the audio is low for everyone That Heil headsets don't work good with K3's [I love my Proset K2 on K2 and K3] I use an external AF amplifier I got at Radio Shack since I know not everyone has my difficulty. Radio Shack does not build great AF amplifiers unfortunately, and I'm going to replace it as soon as I figure out how. The really great solution would be to be able to use the incredible hearing aids the VA has given me as headphones with my radios. They are full of DSP and compensate for my hearing loss, I know where the socket is on them, and I know the cables and plugs exist, they use them when they re-program the little guys. If anyone wanted to invent them, I'd be a beta tester and first customer! Hope to see everyone in the NAQP RTTY this Saturday, I'll be on my K2/100, haven't explored data modes with the K3 yet and I know how to make the K2 work. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
>... None of my 3 "K-rigs" [KX1, K2, K3] has enough audio *for me*." I'm >nearly deaf and have been since one night 40 years ago on the other side of >the planet..... Those who need more audio, there is not only AF GAIN HI. Don't forget also the audio equalizer. With RX EQ you can add up to 16 dB to the desired audio band, or to the whole AF range. Val LZ1VB _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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