K3 AGC Adjustment Parameters

[Don Rasmussen]

I don't know about anyone else, but I bought K3 based
on being able to adjust these (5) things. Even if they
can be "optimized", I WANT to be able to set these for
my preference as advertised.

Attack - Hold - Decay - Threshold - Slope.

All of these have meaning to me.

If any of these are not really available or do not
work as advertised I'll be majorly bummed.


[Elecraft] K3 AGC Adjustment Parameters
Vic K2VCO vic at rakefet.com
Thu Oct 11 14:32:33 EDT 2007

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dhhdeh at comcast.net wrote:

> But I need some enlightenment.  In reading the FAQ's
concerning the
> AGC parameters of the K3, I found the following
discussion:

> "Are the settings variable in terms of attack, hang,
and decay? In
> the menu, you can set the following parameters for
AGC:  Attack time,
>  Hold (Hang) time, Decay rate (in dB/sec for Fast
and Slow),
> Threshold, and Slope. Slope sets the compression you
get from AGC,
> whether you like everything above the threshold to
be flat (S4 and 40
>  over S9 are the same level) or some sort of slope
(2:1, 10:1
> whatever) so stronger signals are somewhat louder."

> In the User Manual under the program menus on page
50, I only see
> adjustable AGC paramenters for Hold, Pulse and
Slope.  Nothing on
> adjusting the 'attack time', 'decay rate' or
'threshold'.

> Did I miss something elsewhere in the manual or am I
misinterpreting
> something?

The other parameters were there in early beta versions
of the firmware,
but were removed for production. I believe (but you
will have to get
this from the horse's mouth) that it was found
possible to optimize
these settings, so they didn't need to be adjustable.

I know, for example, that the attack time was
originally adjustable so
that you could set it to ignore short noise pulses.
But since then, the
AGC Pulse function was implemented to deal with this,
and so the attack
can be as short as possible for best performance.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco


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[wayne burdick]

Don Rasmussen wrote:

> I don't know about anyone else, but I bought K3 based on being able to
> adjust these (5) things.

Don,

It was my decision to remove them, for the reasons given below. It's
trivial to add them back in, but debatable as to whether it's a good
idea. I'm open to discussion. Perhaps we could put them back in along
with cautions in the manual.

Please send me a description of how you would use the controls, i.e.
the qualitative effects you have in mind or specific decay values
you've used before, etc. I'd like to evaluate how your needs differ
from the nominal settings already present.

Here's my reasoning for removing some of the controls:

1. Months of field testing revealed that our testers -- despite a wide
variety of operating styles -- barely ever changed any of the settings
except flatness and hold (hang) time.

2. Some combinations of settings can end up being very confusing,
except for the advanced and/or experimentally inclined operator who can
recognize the side effects. This has been endlessly played out on some
of our competitors' rigs. I had sought to avoid such difficulties once
it became clear that there was such a small range in use by our
testers.

3. Some settings can compromise the performance not just of AGC, but
that of other functions, as well (e.g., DSP noise blanking and AGC
pulse detection/removal).

73,
Wayne
N6KR

---

http://www.elecraft.com

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[M0XDF]

To stick my 2p worth in here and not that I'm knowledgeable about this or
want to change them, but ...
Could you put in a config menu item that turns on/off the possibility of
changing them, so default state is off and it uses your settings Wayne.

If the state is changed to on, another 4 menu items (or whatever) become
active and start with the default state until someone changes them. From
that point, when this menu item is on, it uses the setting from the
operator, when off it uses default settings, but remembers the setting
applied by the op and goes back to them if the menu item is turned on again?


On 11/10/07 23:39, "wayne burdick" <[hidden email]> sent:

> Don Rasmussen wrote:
>
>> I don't know about anyone else, but I bought K3 based on being able to
>> adjust these (5) things.
>
> Don,
>
> It was my decision to remove them, for the reasons given below. It's
> trivial to add them back in, but debatable as to whether it's a good
> idea. I'm open to discussion. Perhaps we could put them back in along
> with cautions in the manual.
>
> Please send me a description of how you would use the controls, i.e.
> the qualitative effects you have in mind or specific decay values
> you've used before, etc. I'd like to evaluate how your needs differ
> from the nominal settings already present.
>
> Here's my reasoning for removing some of the controls:
>
> 1. Months of field testing revealed that our testers -- despite a wide
> variety of operating styles -- barely ever changed any of the settings
> except flatness and hold (hang) time.
>
> 2. Some combinations of settings can end up being very confusing,
> except for the advanced and/or experimentally inclined operator who can
> recognize the side effects. This has been endlessly played out on some
> of our competitors' rigs. I had sought to avoid such difficulties once
> it became clear that there was such a small range in use by our
> testers.
>
> 3. Some settings can compromise the performance not just of AGC, but
> that of other functions, as well (e.g., DSP noise blanking and AGC
> pulse detection/removal).
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR

--
If all our misfortunes were laid in one common heap whence everyone must
take an equal portion, most people would be contented to take their own and
depart.
-Socrates (469?-399 B.C.)


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[wayne burdick]

David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:

>
> Could you put in a config menu item that turns on/off the possibility
> of
> changing them, so default state is off and it uses your settings Wayne.

There are various possibilities for the user interface, David; this is
one of them.

But first I'd like to consult with Don and others who wish to vary
these parameters more than I do  :)

tnx
Wayne
N6KR


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[Don Rasmussen]

Hi Wayne,

As -always- thanks so much for listening.

This is not a trivial issue for me, it's the "glue"
that brings all the other aspects of the transceiver
into line.

Here's the list in priority order, what I'm looking
for in a flexible AGC:

1. Slope - I want S9 CW signals to sound stronger than
S2 signals (more AF) when using a speaker, filling the
room with signal. When using headphones I'd like to
dial it so the signals are at the same level. This
setting was not changed. 8-)

2. Threshold - this is possibly somewhat redundant
with SLOPE, but I'd like the AGC for CW to behave as
if it's in the OFF position until (example) S5, then
to become active. The threshold would change
appreciably by band and noise level.

3. Decay - this is more for phone modes, especially
AM. I'd like an S9 AM carrier when unkeyed to slowly
decay to the squelch at the rate that I choose. CW
would be the fastest decay.

4. Hold - (Hang AGC?) I guess this is Ten Tec
emulation mode. ;-) I don't have much use for this,
but would use it for phone modes occasionally. I'd
rely on DECAY the majority of the time.

5. Attack - this one, well really isn't that critical
either for my operation, if THRESHOLD is available,
but some others may have modes where this would be
beneficial.

In the past I have been amazed at what sounded "good"
with some of my friends. IC756Pro in Full NR for
example does not even sound human to me but some
others hate band noise so much it makes sense to them.


So as long as there is a defaults reset, I lean
towards customization. Those of us that have fiddled
with hardware AGC circuits realize the large practical
benefits in being able to shape it.

C U

Don



Don Rasmussen wrote:

> I don't know about anyone else, but I bought K3
based on being able
 to
> adjust these (5) things.

Don,

It was my decision to remove them, for the reasons
given below. It's
trivial to add them back in, but debatable as to
whether it's a good
idea. I'm open to discussion. Perhaps we could put
them back in along
with cautions in the manual.

Please send me a description of how you would use the
controls, i.e.
the qualitative effects you have in mind or specific
decay values
you've used before, etc. I'd like to evaluate how your
needs differ
from the nominal settings already present.

Here's my reasoning for removing some of the controls:

1. Months of field testing revealed that our testers
-- despite a wide
variety of operating styles -- barely ever changed any
of the settings
except flatness and hold (hang) time.

2. Some combinations of settings can end up being very
confusing,
except for the advanced and/or experimentally inclined
operator who can
recognize the side effects. This has been endlessly
played out on some
of our competitors' rigs. I had sought to avoid such
difficulties once
it became clear that there was such a small range in
use by our
testers.

3. Some settings can compromise the performance not
just of AGC, but
that of other functions, as well (e.g., DSP noise
blanking and AGC
pulse detection/removal).

73,
Wayne
N6KR


--- wayne burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Don Rasmussen wrote:
>
> > I don't know about anyone else, but I bought K3
> based on being able to
> > adjust these (5) things.
>
> Don,
>
> It was my decision to remove them, for the reasons
> given below. It's
> trivial to add them back in, but debatable as to
> whether it's a good
> idea. I'm open to discussion. Perhaps we could put
> them back in along
> with cautions in the manual.
>
> Please send me a description of how you would use
> the controls, i.e.
> the qualitative effects you have in mind or specific
> decay values
> you've used before, etc. I'd like to evaluate how
> your needs differ
> from the nominal settings already present.
>
> Here's my reasoning for removing some of the
> controls:
>
> 1. Months of field testing revealed that our testers
> -- despite a wide
> variety of operating styles -- barely ever changed
> any of the settings
> except flatness and hold (hang) time.
>
> 2. Some combinations of settings can end up being
> very confusing,
> except for the advanced and/or experimentally
> inclined operator who can
> recognize the side effects. This has been endlessly
> played out on some
> of our competitors' rigs. I had sought to avoid such
> difficulties once
> it became clear that there was such a small range in
> use by our
> testers.
>
> 3. Some settings can compromise the performance not
> just of AGC, but
> that of other functions, as well (e.g., DSP noise
> blanking and AGC
> pulse detection/removal).
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ---
>
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

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[Scott Manthe]

I can understand where Wayne is coming from- bad eHam reviews are sure
to follow if people who don't know how to use these controls are given
access to them.

Scott, N9AA

wayne burdick wrote:

> Don,
>
> It was my decision to remove them, for the reasons given below. It's
> trivial to add them back in, but debatable as to whether it's a good
> idea. I'm open to discussion. Perhaps we could put them back in along
> with cautions in the manual.
>
> Please send me a description of how you would use the controls, i.e.
> the qualitative effects you have in mind or specific decay values
> you've used before, etc. I'd like to evaluate how your needs differ
> from the nominal settings already present.
>
> Here's my reasoning for removing some of the controls:
>
> 1. Months of field testing revealed that our testers -- despite a wide
> variety of operating styles -- barely ever changed any of the settings
> except flatness and hold (hang) time.
>
> 2. Some combinations of settings can end up being very confusing,
> except for the advanced and/or experimentally inclined operator who
> can recognize the side effects. This has been endlessly played out on
> some of our competitors' rigs. I had sought to avoid such difficulties
> once it became clear that there was such a small range in use by our
> testers.
>
> 3. Some settings can compromise the performance not just of AGC, but
> that of other functions, as well (e.g., DSP noise blanking and AGC
> pulse detection/removal).
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR

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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

 
I bet it could make a mess of things to make all the settings easy
to adjust.
I just wonder if the settings are good for AM reception, where you
want a slow agc so you don't knock the bass out, and by bass I mean
10 to 50 Hz type stuff.
On most 'ham' gear, you don't want that as it would just add noise,
but for fidelity reception, its nice to go well below 200 Hz.
The homebrew receivers go below 20 Hz, good for zero beating an
AM station, I watch the 10 inch woofer pulse in and out as I zero...

I limit the bandwidth I want to hear in the AUDIO chain, NOT
in the receivers...
Highs are not as much of an issue with me, my ears are no good above
about 4000 Hz...

Older receivers do really well with fidelity, almost anything
tube based can get to 20 Hz at the detector, I have not found
any modern ham gear that went much below 200 Hz.

Its interesting that some guys use modified FT102's and get
the low frequency down below 20 Hz, they can wave their hand
in front of the microphone and I can see it move the speaker.

What a wide range of things people do with ham radio....


I hope the K3 performs well in the fidelity department....

Brett
N2DTS



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[Julian, G4ILO]

Since the K3 AM roofing filter is 6KHz, I guess it won't be so hi-fi.
It isn't tubes vs transistors, so much as IF coils vs crystal filters.

Brings back memories of when I was a kid, when I used to listen to AM
radio using a home made crystal set with an OA91 diode, tuned by a
permeability tuned core. With selectivity that broad, fed into a
transistor amplifier, the quality was great although I could hear the
9KHz heterodynes from the stations either side.

This topic might be better carried on in the Lounge over at Zerobeat
Forums (see link in sig.)
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf


On 10/12/07, Brett gazdzinski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Older receivers do really well with fidelity, almost anything
> tube based can get to 20 Hz at the detector, I have not found
> any modern ham gear that went much below 200 Hz.
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[Greg - AB7R]

On Fri Oct 12  4:25 , "Julian G4ILO"  sent:

>It looks to me as if something like a "system restore" function would
>be handy, so you could set things back to the last state you had if
>you decide you have completely messed things up by tweaking.

A very handy thing with the menu design is that while you are in it, you can tap
display and you will get a help context with the default parameter given.  So if
someone does create a situation where they're not getting the most out of the radio
due to crazy AGC settings during experimentation, they can go to those items and
reset them.


-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065
K3#0009

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[wayne burdick]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

> Since the K3 AM roofing filter is 6KHz, I guess it won't be so hi-fi.

I've been listening to AM using SSB and the 6 kHz filter. It sounds
great with voice or music. The K3 is rock-stable so the carrier is not
a problem.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

---

http://www.elecraft.com

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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

Wayne,
I have been told you could use the FM filter in any mode, RX and/or TX.
I hope that is so.

The problem with using ssb for AM receive is lots of AM guys are using
old rigs that not only drift, but modulate the VFO somewhat, or they jump
around like crazy (heathkits a lot), so a real AM detector works much
better then SSB would!
You don't even notice the problems, which is a good and a bad thing,
many guys drift off 3kc or more and no one knows it.
I use a freq counter to monitor my TX, have a professional mod monitor,
and a scope on the RX IF so I can see everything TX and RX, but many guys
just have a dx100 with a d104, or a homebrew, with no monitoring equipment.

Part of the fun working some guy with a Millen rig from the 1930's along
with a guy running a flex radio, a homebrew class e rig, etc....

That gives a lot to talk about!

Brett
N2DTS
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of wayne burdick
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:35 PM
> To: Julian G4ILO
> Cc: elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] AM signals in SSB mode w/6 kHz filte
>
> Julian G4ILO wrote:
>
> > Since the K3 AM roofing filter is 6KHz, I guess it won't be
> so hi-fi.
>
> I've been listening to AM using SSB and the 6 kHz filter. It sounds
> great with voice or music. The K3 is rock-stable so the
> carrier is not
> a problem.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ---
>
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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