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K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough

John,

Your recording has substantiated the cautions that I have mentioned.
First, attempts to evaluate the K3 AGC response with no signals on the
band will lead you in the wrong direction.
Secondly, you apparently have the AF Gain well advanced, perhaps even at
maximum.
Third, you have demonstrated that at low threshold settings the AGC can
be activated on receiver noise alone. That fact is demonstrated by a
reduction in noise when the threshold is lowered.
Reducing the RF Gain has the effect of reducing the range of the AGC.

If you want signals to "pop out of the noise" using real signals on a
real band, try setting the Threshold to maximum and set the Slope to
minimum. Set the attenuator on and preamp off for 160 meters (unless
you are using an inefficient receiving antenna). Start with the RF Gain
set at full clockwise and turn the AF Gain up only until you hear a
moderate, but tolerable amount of band noise.

You may wish to reduce the RF Gain a bit and advance the AF Gain, but
keep the band noise received to a moderate level.

Try it and see what happens.

Again, reducing the AGC Threshold is going exactly the wrong way.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/9/2010 8:15 AM, John Chappell G3XRJ wrote:

> Don,
> Thank you for your responses and for your efforts on your webpage.
>
> However, I should have made it clear that I'm not in a noisy environment
> and just to make it absolutely clear I've made another recording without
> antenna connected to the K3.
> Main and RX antenna physically removed, pre Amp off.
> Att Off, SSB Bandwidth Normal ....
> Recording made in LSB mode rather than my normal CW because it
> demonstrates the point more clearly.
>
> Recording here http://www.g3xrj.com/Recordings/K3_agc_part2.mp3
>
> Finally I must point out that I'm not saying the K3 is a noisy receiver
> but rather, whatever the AGC does in its present incarnation in the
> digital stream, has the effect of increasing the 'rf gain' from 12
> o'clock to nearly 3 o'clock on overall system noise.
>
> 73
> John G3XRJ
>

John Chappell G3XRJ

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough

Don,
Thanks for response again.
Recording was made from 'line out' so af gain not in play.

Havn't had chance to try your suggestion yet but think I've already been
there.

73

John

> John,
>
> Your recording has substantiated the cautions that I have mentioned.
> First, attempts to evaluate the K3 AGC response with no signals on the
> band will lead you in the wrong direction.
> Secondly, you apparently have the AF Gain well advanced, perhaps even at
> maximum.
> Third, you have demonstrated that at low threshold settings the AGC can
> be activated on receiver noise alone. That fact is demonstrated by a
> reduction in noise when the threshold is lowered.
> Reducing the RF Gain has the effect of reducing the range of the AGC.
>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough

In reply to this post by Carl W Clawson

Carl,

Backing off the RF Gain will preserve the dynamic range of the receiver,
and will move the AGC response further from the threshold (but it will
do nothing for the slope).

So, yes, that can be quite effective for reducing noise. Many do not
like to back off the RF Gain. I have heard two valid reasons - one is
that a modern receiver's AGC should take care of the need to change the
RF Gain - and secondly, some object to the fact that the S-meter goes up
when the RF Gain is reduced.

Also, backing off the RF Gain is the best way to reduce the "no signal"
band noise, but the AGC will handle things differently when there are
signals on the band and pauses in the signal. If the AGC is set to be
agressive (low threshold and high slope), there will still be little
difference between the signal and the rise of noise during pauses in the
signal. The only way to change that is to adjust the AGC parameters.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/8/2010 11:54 PM, Carl Clawson wrote:

> Nice writeup, Don. Thanks!
>
> But the one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this month's installment of
> the "noisy K3" discussion is setting the RF gain control. I got into the
> habit long ago of using the RF gain to quiet the band noise to a reasonable
> level -- after setting pre-amp, attenuator, and AF gain appropriately. We
> didn't have AGC parameters to play with back then except maybe
> Fast/Slow/Off.
>
> If the K3's "RF" (actually IF) gain control works the way most rigs' do, it
> is providing a bias to the AGC control voltage. In other words, it is
> providing a maximum gain that will not be exceeded by the AGC's feedback
> action. Is that not an equally valid way to control the level of band noise?
> Apart from it being manual instead of automatic, is there any drawback to
> it? I can imagine that it could interact with AGC dynamics in some
> unpleasant way, but if so I haven't noticed it yet.
>
> The K3 is only the second HF rig I've owned in 23 years as a ham. My first
> was an Icom 735, and it is quite noisy on the low bands if the RF gain is
> all the way up. I've heard quieter rigs, but it never occurred to me to
> think of them as better just because of that.
>
> 73, Carl WS7L
> K3 #486
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Go to www.w3fpr.com and click on the link in the left column
>> referring to K3 noise and AGC settings.
>> It is an expansion of the post I offered earlier today
>> dealing with AGC settings and their relationship to K3 noise.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
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Carl W Clawson

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough

In reply to this post by Carl W Clawson

Note that my post referenced below sat in limbo for 4 days before showing up
on the list. It's a bit stale.

In the interim, one contributor gave some quantitative info about the noise
measured between CW elements when running full QSK with the RF gain control
set appropriately. If the noise between elements is rising above the level
you had set with the gain control, that seems to be a malfunction.

Is it maybe the case that some other rigs actually suppress the gain a bit
between QSK elements, and are therefore perceived as having quieter QSK? I
could imagine a good argument for a bit of gain suppression in that
circumstance...but then my imagination runs amok quite frequently.

73 and thanks for listening,
Carl WS7L
K3 #486

> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Clawson
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 8:54 PM
>
> Nice writeup, Don. Thanks!

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John Chappell G3XRJ

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

In reply to this post by John Chappell G3XRJ

Problem solved.

When I built my K3 and came to the Owner's Manual setup procedures on
Page 51 - 'S-Meter and RF Gain control'. Not being in possession of an
XG2 I took the statement 'calibration is normally adequate using the
factory settings' at face value - and didn't calibrate the rf gain.

Anyway, some of the responses to my original post pointed to some more
in depth reading from W3FPR, K6NA and others.
I realised that my K3 simply wouldn't respond as described and had too
much gain in the RF/DSP somewhere.

So I re-visited the RF Gain Calibration procedure - still without XG2.
Brought up K3 Utility
Selected Calibrate RF Gain which brings up screen 'Welcome to RF Gain
Calibration' which refers to using a calibrated signal source -
Nevertheless, click Next
Choose 'Use factory default'
Click Next

PROBLEM SOLVED

The K3 now sounds and behaves as I would expect.
What a revelation.

It may be just my K3 slipped through some factory stage and needed the
factory defaults loading.
However, my two nearest K3 owners - also self builds - suffered with the
same problem I described, as I had discussed it with them before posting
my original.

One has had similar success with the Utility Calibration the other less so.

However, if you suffer the same issue it would certainly appear to be
worth running through the procedure outlined above.

It is a night and day transformation for my K3.

Now to order an XG2 for a final tweak.

73 John G3XRJ

> I like to listen to a receiver with the rf gain set to just below
> antenna atmospheric noise and AGC on - and not raising the rf gain when
> it is switched on.
>
> My K3 is srl 46xx and the only way I get the quiet background I desire
> is to turn the AGC off. This necessitates having the AF limiter turned
> on to save my ears and hopefully the speaker output chip.
>
> I've played around with various AGC settings and in particular the
> AGC THR - which if it would go 2 or 3 points lower would appear to
> address the problem.
>

Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

RF gain calibration has to be done, whether one has an XG2 or not.
Without the XG2 you can set it to factory defaults.

The RF gain calibration has to be done after the K3 is assembled and
can't be done to the board before shipping a kit version.

Although it works without the cal, there are strange behaviors in the
corners and fringes, probably some I ran into which you happily will
never know.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:10 PM, John Chappell G3XRJ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Problem solved.
>
> When I built my K3 and came to the Owner's Manual setup procedures on
> Page 51 - 'S-Meter and RF Gain control'. Not being in possession of an
> XG2 I took the statement 'calibration is normally adequate using the
> factory settings' at face value - and didn't calibrate the rf gain.
>
> Anyway, some of the responses to my original post pointed to some more
> in depth reading from W3FPR, K6NA and others.
> I realised that my K3 simply wouldn't respond as described and had too
> much gain in the RF/DSP somewhere.
>
> So I re-visited the RF Gain Calibration procedure - still without XG2.
> Brought up K3 Utility
> Selected Calibrate RF Gain which brings up screen 'Welcome to RF Gain
> Calibration' which refers to using a calibrated signal source -
> Nevertheless, click Next
> Choose 'Use factory default'
> Click Next
>
> PROBLEM SOLVED
>
> The K3 now sounds and behaves as I would expect.
> What a revelation.
>
>
> It may be just my K3 slipped through some factory stage and needed the
> factory defaults loading.
> However, my two nearest K3 owners - also self builds - suffered with the
> same problem I described, as I had discussed it with them before posting
> my original.
>
> One has had similar success with the Utility Calibration the other less so.
>
> However, if you suffer the same issue it would certainly appear to be
> worth running through the procedure outlined above.
>
> It is a night and day transformation for my K3.
>
> Now to order an XG2 for a final tweak.
>
> 73 John G3XRJ
>
>
>> I like to listen to a receiver with the rf gain set to just below
>> antenna atmospheric noise and AGC on - and not raising the rf gain when
>> it is switched on.
>>
>> My K3 is srl 46xx and the only way I get the quiet background I desire
>> is to turn the AGC off. This necessitates having the AF limiter turned
>> on to save my ears and hopefully the speaker output chip.
>>
>> I've played around with various AGC settings and in particular the
>> AGC THR - which if it would go 2 or 3 points lower would appear to
>> address the problem.
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill W4ZV

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

In reply to this post by John Chappell G3XRJ

John Chappell G3XRJ wrote

> My K3 is srl 46xx and the only way I get the quiet background I desire
> is to turn the AGC off.

<SNIP>

Problem solved.

When I built my K3 and came to the Owner's Manual setup procedures on
Page 51 - 'S-Meter and RF Gain control'. Not being in possession of an
XG2 I took the statement 'calibration is normally adequate using the
factory settings' at face value - and didn't calibrate the rf gain.

It's probably just as well that you didn't do the RF Gain Calibration. The most recent versions of the Utility (e.g. 1.3.9.xx) were not properly saving calibration parameters. I went through many pushups discovering this with #4717...not far past your #46XX.

If you do get an XG2, be sure to download the latest K3 Utility (at least 1.3.10.11 or later) which correctly saves the parameters. If anyone else has done RF Cal recently (i.e. in September), you should redo it with the new Utility when released.

73, Bill

k5oai

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

On 10/12/2010 8:10 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:

> be sure to download the latest K3 Utility (at least
> 1.3.10.11 or later)

If it has been released I can't find it on the ftp site?

GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan
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Bill W4ZV

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

k5oai wrote

On 10/12/2010 8:10 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:

> be sure to download the latest K3 Utility (at least
> 1.3.10.11 or later)

If it has been released I can't find it on the ftp site?

Still in beta but should be released soon. It works FB on two different units here so I believe the problem is solved.

73, Bill

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Bill,

> If you do get an XG2, be sure to download the latest K3 Utility (at
> least 1.3.10.11 or later) which correctly saves the parameters. If
> anyone else has done RF Cal recently (i.e. in September), you should
> redo it with the new Utility when released.

Where does one get 1.3.10.11 or later? The last one on the web site
is 1.3.9.12.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 10/12/2010 9:10 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:

>
>
> John Chappell G3XRJ wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My K3 is srl 46xx and the only way I get the quiet background I desire
>>> is to turn the AGC off.
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Problem solved.
>>
>> When I built my K3 and came to the Owner's Manual setup procedures on
>> Page 51 - 'S-Meter and RF Gain control'. Not being in possession of an
>> XG2 I took the statement 'calibration is normally adequate using the
>> factory settings' at face value - and didn't calibrate the rf gain.
>>
>
> It's probably just as well that you didn't do the RF Gain Calibration. The
> most recent versions of the Utility (e.g. 1.3.9.xx) were not properly saving
> calibration parameters. I went through many pushups discovering this with
> #4717...not far past your #46XX.
>
> If you do get an XG2, be sure to download the latest K3 Utility (at least
> 1.3.10.11 or later) which correctly saves the parameters. If anyone else
> has done RF Cal recently (i.e. in September), you should redo it with the
> new Utility when released.
>
> 73, Bill
>

Dale Parfitt-3

K3 to SPE 1K-FA Amplifier

Is there anyone on the list that has made up the interface cable from the K3
RS-232 to the SPE's DB-15 connector? If so, pin out?

Tnx,
Dale W4OP

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W5UXH

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Did 1.3.7.26 have this problem? I just used it for RF cal a few minutes ago.

Chuck, W5UXH

Bill W4ZV wrote

If you do get an XG2, be sure to download the latest K3 Utility (at least 1.3.10.11 or later) which correctly saves the parameters. If anyone else has done RF Cal recently (i.e. in September), you should redo it with the new Utility when released.

73, Bill

Bill W4ZV

Re: K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED

W5UXH wrote

Did 1.3.7.26 have this problem? I just used it for RF cal a few minutes ago.

Probably OK. I used the oldest I could find which was 1.3.7.5 and it worked OK.

ussv dharma

Problem

In reply to this post by W5UXH

Aloha:

PROBLEM

1. I rely upon my K3 for downloading weather charts, email, etc. I live on a small boat.

2. From day one front panel phone jack, TOUCHY. \

3. Electraft said send it back....no radio 3 weeks or more

4. Front panel phone jack finally totally dead

5. No schematic in manual

5. rear phone jack next to label that says stereo...is the phone jack mono or stereo...I dont know, cant tell.

Now I ask:

Why no schematic...I have never had a radio without a schematic in the manual.

QUESTION:
what is the rear phone jack mono? Stereo? if Stereo, which connections for a normal pair of phones.

Wish I had never got this radio, but living on social security, I am stuck with it.

Susan

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA

--- On Tue, 10/12/10, W5UXH <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: W5UXH <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC THR doesn't go low enough - SOLVED
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 4:08 PM
>
> Did 1.3.7.26 have this problem? I just used it for RF
> cal a few minutes ago.
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>
> Bill W4ZV wrote:
> >
> >
> > If you do get an XG2, be sure to download the latest
> K3 Utility (at least
> > 1.3.10.11 or later) which correctly saves the
> parameters. If anyone else
> > has done RF Cal recently (i.e. in September), you
> should redo it with the
> > new Utility when released.
> >
> > 73, Bill
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AGC-THR-doesn-t-go-low-enough-tp5614723p5629318.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

wayne burdick

Re: Problem

Administrator

ussv dharma wrote:

> Why no schematic...I have never had a radio without a schematic in
> the manual.

The full schematic set for the K3 is available on our web site at:

http://www.elecraft.com/manual/K3_Schematics_Jun_2010.pdf

Making the print large enough for our average customer to read without
a magnifying glass pushed it to 56 pages. I wasn't willing to burn
that many trees, and most customers prefer an electronic (searchable)
schematic set anyway.

> what is the rear phone jack mono? Stereo?

Either.

> if Stereo, which connections for a normal pair of phones.

It's wired exactly the same as the front headphone jack and works the
same way. It's just a 1/8th-inch jack rather than 1/4".

I'm sorry you've had continuing trouble with the front jack. We'd be
happy to replace your DSP board, which includes this jack, at no charge.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Dick Dievendorff

Re: Problem

In reply to this post by ussv dharma

5. Schematics and manuals are available on the Elecraft web site at

http://www.elecraft.com/K2_Manual_Download_Page.htm#K3

A direct link to the schematic file is:

http://www.elecraft.com/manual/K3_Schematics_Jun_2010.pdf

The rear-panel phone jack is a stereo 3.5mm connector, standard stereo
headphone connection.

Dick, K6KR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ussv dharma
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Problem

Aloha:

PROBLEM

1. I rely upon my K3 for downloading weather charts, email, etc. I live on a
small boat.

2. From day one front panel phone jack, TOUCHY. \

3. Electraft said send it back....no radio 3 weeks or more

4. Front panel phone jack finally totally dead

5. No schematic in manual

5. rear phone jack next to label that says stereo...is the phone jack mono
or stereo...I dont know, cant tell.

Now I ask:

Why no schematic...I have never had a radio without a schematic in the
manual.

QUESTION:
what is the rear phone jack mono? Stereo? if Stereo, which connections
for a normal pair of phones.

Wish I had never got this radio, but living on social security, I am stuck
with it.

Susan

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're
headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM
USSV DHARMA

--- On Tue, 10/12/10, W5UXH <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AGC-THR-doesn-t-go-low-enough-tp5614
723p5629318.html

> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Guy, K2AV

Re: Problem

In reply to this post by ussv dharma

There are many good reasons to not put a schematic in a modern manual,
and keep an online PDF instead.

A) First and foremost, if a properly done PDF you can search it and
very quickly find all the wires and components associated with a
character string. The FREE Adobe Reader search will find component
lables, every occurence of a word or string in a wire lable, etc, etc.
Compared to that, paper schematics have become useless to me. Try
the PDF, you will like it.

B) The online version can be updated and immediately available

C) The online PDF version can be zoomed in to allow one to read the
TINY print. When I go to follow something on the printed schematic of
my FT1000MP, I have to wear a magnifier.

D) I can print out a portion of a page to put next to me on the
workbench...a MAGNIFIED portion of a page. Try that with big printed
24x36 pages. And then circle, highlight, etc on that paper. I don't
dare do that on a printed and bound schematic.

E) A printed schematic that never needs updates is a Yakencom
speciality, because they never update anything except in new models
that you have to purchase the whole new rig to get incremental
changes. Especially so the FT...MP series.

F) They send a printed manual, because that is an Analog world
leftover. In a digital world, the firmware should be constantly
evolving both for fixes and new features. This cannot be maintained
in a printed manual. This is a nod to the need to sit down and read
the manual like a book with a new rig. Which I did, several times,
for the first couple of months. I have not looked at it since. I
have #1239. For EVERYTHING afterwards, the downloaded PDF on my
laptop has been far better, including the schematic.

G) This is not some "failing" of Elecraft, or a problem in radio.
Downloadable full manuals is becoming the most common commercial
practice for significant products which are not of the "throwaway"
kind (like watches). It uses the same already required channels for
firmware and driver updates. Most printed manuals are no longer
anywhere near comprehensive, and just a quick-start guide. The deep
and optional stuff is an up-to-date online manual or web site.

H) Printed manuals are a considerable expense, a good half of which
is avoided by online versions. Some companies charge 25$ for printed
manuals. The cost of preparing and printing will surprise you. Some
companies have staffs of thousands engaged in documentation and
testing documentation, with perhaps a fifth of those engaged in tasks
related to the PRINTED version. This is money you spend in the
product. Insisting on printed material is only running up your own
costs.

I) Printed manuals have to be put into process months before release
of the product in order to be ready. In some cases, companies will
have to DROP a feature or a fix that changes behavior JUST BECAUSE
IT'S TOO LATE TO CHANGE THE MANUAL. In the case of Yakencom, since
they don't ever intend to change anything, that IS the final version,
just because of the printed manual.

J) Printed manuals do not allow drill down. This very simple aspect
of the way human minds work, expanding a clearly understood general
concept down into particulars for a specific piece of gear, cannot be
mimicked on paper. It only works in web links or PDF links.

The other thing, if I lived on a boat and required communications
ongoing, you would never get me to go out with only one of any
communications gear, or without alternate channels, I don't care who
made it. Equipment makers are NOT God, therefore ALL equipment has
bugs and breaks down, that's ALL equipment, including our inestimable
Wayne. It used to be that one could carry spare parts, but SMD has
changed all that.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 10:45 PM, ussv dharma <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Aloha:
>
> PROBLEM
>
> 1. I rely upon my K3 for downloading weather charts, email, etc. I live on a small boat.
>
> 2. From day one front panel phone jack, TOUCHY. \
>
> 3. Electraft said send it back....no radio 3 weeks or more
>
> 4. Front panel phone jack finally totally dead
>
> 5. No schematic in manual
>
> 5. rear phone jack next to label that says stereo...is the phone jack mono or stereo...I dont know, cant tell.
>
> Now I ask:
>
> Why no schematic...I have never had a radio without a schematic in the manual.
>
> QUESTION:
> what is the rear phone jack mono? Stereo? if Stereo, which connections for a normal pair of phones.
>
> Wish I had never got this radio, but living on social security, I am stuck with it.
>
> Susan

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Problem

Guy,

I agree that search-able .pdf schematics are a godsend. I would not be
without them.
However, I did download and print the K3 schematics. After I locate
what I want on the search-able .pdf, the printed schematics provide me
with a reference point from which I can trace signal paths. Both are a
great help to me.

In today's age, things are so complex that inclusion of schematics in a
manual is outdated, and as you have indicated, will not reflect the
"latest and greatest". The downloadable schematics are a reasonable
compromise.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/15/2010 9:50 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> There are many good reasons to not put a schematic in a modern manual,
> and keep an online PDF instead.
>
> A) First and foremost, if a properly done PDF you can search it and
> very quickly find all the wires and components associated with a
> character string. The FREE Adobe Reader search will find component
> lables, every occurence of a word or string in a wire lable, etc, etc.
> Compared to that, paper schematics have become useless to me. Try
> the PDF, you will like it.
>
> B) The online version can be updated and immediately available
>
> C) The online PDF version can be zoomed in to allow one to read the
> TINY print. When I go to follow something on the printed schematic of
> my FT1000MP, I have to wear a magnifier.
>
> D) I can print out a portion of a page to put next to me on the
> workbench...a MAGNIFIED portion of a page. Try that with big printed
> 24x36 pages. And then circle, highlight, etc on that paper. I don't
> dare do that on a printed and bound schematic.
>
> E) A printed schematic that never needs updates is a Yakencom
> speciality, because they never update anything except in new models
> that you have to purchase the whole new rig to get incremental
> changes. Especially so the FT...MP series.
>
> F) They send a printed manual, because that is an Analog world
> leftover. In a digital world, the firmware should be constantly
> evolving both for fixes and new features. This cannot be maintained
> in a printed manual. This is a nod to the need to sit down and read
> the manual like a book with a new rig. Which I did, several times,
> for the first couple of months. I have not looked at it since. I
> have #1239. For EVERYTHING afterwards, the downloaded PDF on my
> laptop has been far better, including the schematic.
>
> G) This is not some "failing" of Elecraft, or a problem in radio.
> Downloadable full manuals is becoming the most common commercial
> practice for significant products which are not of the "throwaway"
> kind (like watches). It uses the same already required channels for
> firmware and driver updates. Most printed manuals are no longer
> anywhere near comprehensive, and just a quick-start guide. The deep
> and optional stuff is an up-to-date online manual or web site.
>
> H) Printed manuals are a considerable expense, a good half of which
> is avoided by online versions. Some companies charge 25$ for printed
> manuals. The cost of preparing and printing will surprise you. Some
> companies have staffs of thousands engaged in documentation and
> testing documentation, with perhaps a fifth of those engaged in tasks
> related to the PRINTED version. This is money you spend in the
> product. Insisting on printed material is only running up your own
> costs.
>
> I) Printed manuals have to be put into process months before release
> of the product in order to be ready. In some cases, companies will
> have to DROP a feature or a fix that changes behavior JUST BECAUSE
> IT'S TOO LATE TO CHANGE THE MANUAL. In the case of Yakencom, since
> they don't ever intend to change anything, that IS the final version,
> just because of the printed manual.
>
> J) Printed manuals do not allow drill down. This very simple aspect
> of the way human minds work, expanding a clearly understood general
> concept down into particulars for a specific piece of gear, cannot be
> mimicked on paper. It only works in web links or PDF links.
>
> The other thing, if I lived on a boat and required communications
> ongoing, you would never get me to go out with only one of any
> communications gear, or without alternate channels, I don't care who
> made it. Equipment makers are NOT God, therefore ALL equipment has
> bugs and breaks down, that's ALL equipment, including our inestimable
> Wayne. It used to be that one could carry spare parts, but SMD has
> changed all that.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 10:45 PM, ussv dharma<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Aloha:
>>
>> PROBLEM
>>
>> 1. I rely upon my K3 for downloading weather charts, email, etc. I live on a small boat.
>>
>> 2. From day one front panel phone jack, TOUCHY. \
>>
>> 3. Electraft said send it back....no radio 3 weeks or more
>>
>> 4. Front panel phone jack finally totally dead
>>
>> 5. No schematic in manual
>>
>> 5. rear phone jack next to label that says stereo...is the phone jack mono or stereo...I dont know, cant tell.
>>
>> Now I ask:
>>
>> Why no schematic...I have never had a radio without a schematic in the manual.
>>
>> QUESTION:
>> what is the rear phone jack mono? Stereo? if Stereo, which connections for a normal pair of phones.
>>
>> Wish I had never got this radio, but living on social security, I am stuck with it.
>>
>> Susan
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