K3 APF
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On 11/14/2010 4:20 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> I also suggested the background noise issue to Joe. This makes sense to me, Bill. It's the noise that excites the ringing, and the TRANSIENT waveform of the noise is almost certain to affect the extent of the ringing. I have VERY limited experience with the Beta (a few QSOs in CWSS with 4.17 and a few more during OK/OM this weekend with 4.21). The waveform of the CW probably also matters -- there was a LOT of flutter on the OK/OM signals here in CA. Some of those OK/OM signals were also quite weak, but I didn't find the APF any more useful than a narrow IF setting in pulling them out. In general, I found the APF to be effective on some signals and a waste of time on others. I also found it tricky to tune in, and thus not as effective in contest operation. As to Joe's measurements -- I've done a LOT of measurements, and I'd call these two sets of data he posted a dead heat. FWIW -- I loaded 4.21 Friday afternoon and ran a couple of hours in OK/OM on 20M Saturday morning and about 8 hours in JIDX SSB.After loading 4.21, I also used a new version of K3 Util to recal TX power. No issues with the Beta. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to
550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well without tuning. That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals. 73, Pete N4ZR The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com, spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 On 11/14/2010 1:09 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > In general, I found the APF to be effective on some signals and a waste > of time on others. I also found it tricky to tune in, and thus not as > effective in contest operation. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like FM, AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter. I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if you have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3. 73, Bill |
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Hi Bill, I can vouch for the fact that the APF on the IC-7700 was of no use. One would have thought that that might have been an item to be updated on a newer firmware version- but it never was at least as long as I owned the rig. Dale W4OP > Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found > its > APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like > FM, > AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use > (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in > the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the > extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter. > > I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very > careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most > callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if > you > have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3257 - Release Date: 11/14/10 14:34:00 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
On 11/14/2010 4:23 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very > careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most > callers don't zero beat me that closely). YES! That's exactly what I'm talking about with respect to it being difficult for contest operation. Jim ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's why we have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover that feature on the rig too... > Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:23:27 -0800 > From: [hidden email] > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF > > > > Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: > > > > I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to > > 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well > > without tuning. That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always > > found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals. > > > > Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its > APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like FM, > AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use > (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in > the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the > extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter. > > I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very > careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most > callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if you > have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
On 11/14/2010 4:23 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very > careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most > callers don't zero beat me that closely). YES! That's exactly what I'm talking about with respect to it being difficult for contest operation. Jim The best filter or audio device ever made is between your ears...including your ears. Amazing piece of work. As I grow older (Rats!), I've had to have some help with digital hearing aids and good radios like the K3. Makes things easier....but the best filter I've found is your brain! APF is good, but the good CW ops use a lot of biological filtering. Lee - K0WA ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by The Smiths
I've got to agree with The Smiths (whoever they are) on this one, Bill -
the only thing I was trying to point out was that you don't need to find yourself to the Shift knob to move the APF around, if you tune it to the same point as your IF filter peak and tune with your RIT or the main tuning. 73, Pete N4ZR The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com, spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 On 11/14/2010 8:49 PM, The Smiths wrote: > You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's why we have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover that feature on the rig too... > >> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:23:27 -0800 >> From: [hidden email] >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF >> >> >> >> Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: >>> I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to >>> 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well >>> without tuning. That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always >>> found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals. >>> >> Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its >> APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like FM, >> AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use >> (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in >> the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the >> extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter. >> >> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very >> careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most >> callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if you >> have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3. >> >> 73, Bill >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html >> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by The Smiths
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:
You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's > why we have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover > that feature on the rig too... > :-)) I was responding to Pete's comment on "works well without tuning". APF is not usable "without tuning" unless everyone is zero beat within 5-10 Hz. I guess I need to learn how to use radios. In 53 years on the air, Honor Roll at age 19 (before packet and lists), world high DXCC (331) on 160, all 6 current USA records on 10m (CQ WW, ARRL DX and CQ WPX, both modes), you'd think I'd have discovered RIT by now. In fact I never use RIT because I prefer the big VFO knob. I operate split even when in transceive so I never touch that dinky RIT knob. But then what do I know? ;-) 73, Bill W4ZV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I was thinking the same thing, I use the RIT all the time.
Bob K6UJ On Nov 14, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Bill Tippett wrote: > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote: > > You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's >> why we have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover >> that feature on the rig too... >> > > :-)) I was responding to Pete's comment on "works well without tuning". > APF is not usable "without tuning" unless everyone is zero beat within 5-10 > Hz. > > I guess I need to learn how to use radios. In 53 years on the air, Honor > Roll at age 19 (before packet and lists), world high DXCC (331) on 160, all > 6 current USA records on 10m (CQ WW, ARRL DX and CQ WPX, both modes), you'd > think I'd have discovered RIT by now. > > In fact I never use RIT because I prefer the big VFO knob. I operate split > even when in transceive so I never touch that dinky RIT knob. But then what > do I know? ;-) > > 73, Bill W4ZV > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
I beg to differ. The TS-930S APF works pretty good in combination with
narrow (500Hz) set of filters in 2nd and 3rd IF. The problematic part is that as far as I recall in TS-930s the APF is in AF, which is little too late to correct other shortcomings of the receiver. 73, Igor -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:23 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Pete Smith N4ZR wrote: > > I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to > 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well > without tuning. That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always > found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals. > Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like FM, AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter. I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if you have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Pete Smith N4ZR
Pete I'm repeating myself but...if you tune the K3 in its normal VFO mode (not FINE) it tunes in 10 Hz steps. For extremely weak signals (for which APF is intended) you'll give up 1+ dB by not being able to peak signals that fall between the 10 Hz steps. For a signal at or below the noise floor, 1 dB can be the difference between copy and not. This is why Wayne went to 5 Hz steps instead of 10 Hz in the latest APF implementation. Of course you can also switch the VFO to FINE and tune in 1 Hz steps (which is what I did prior to the 5 Hz SHIFT mod) but 1 Hz is really overkill (...and slow). Regarding AF TUNE (...not APF) in the TS-930S, it's simply a tunable 3-pole active filter. It has NO gain and must be in the order of 80-100 Hz BW. Contrast that to the 30 Hz BW and 9 dB gain APF in the K3. I'd liken AF TUNE in the 930 to the original focus/context filter (DUAL PB for CW) in the K3 (which IMHO is not as useful as APF). 73, Bill |
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In reply to this post by k.igor
Igor, wouldn't you expect to find the Audio Peaking Filter in the Audio Frequency section? Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ ________________________________ From: Igor Kosvin <[hidden email]> To: Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:12:07 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF I beg to differ. The TS-930S APF works pretty good in combination with narrow (500Hz) set of filters in 2nd and 3rd IF. The problematic part is that as far as I recall in TS-930s the APF is in AF, which is little too late to correct other shortcomings of the receiver. 73, Igor ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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K3 ain't your daddy's analog radio...
Incoming signals are handled as analog signals until they are converted to a 15 kHz IF. At that point the analog is converted to digital. All the rest is done in firmware as part of the number soup. Calling firmware functions IF or AF is really a misnomer. All the neat stuff is done BEFORE the number soup is converted to an actual AF voltage. APF number soup, NR digital soup, DSP number soup... I suppose you could say that some of the numbers were AF numbers and some of them were IF numbers? 73, Guy On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:19 AM, WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Igor, wouldn't you expect to find the Audio Peaking Filter in the Audio > Frequency section? > Willis 'Cookie' Cooke > K5EWJ > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Igor Kosvin <[hidden email]> > To: Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] > Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:12:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF > > I beg to differ. The TS-930S APF works pretty good in combination with > narrow (500Hz) set of filters in 2nd and 3rd IF. The problematic part is > that as far as I recall in TS-930s the APF is in AF, which is little too > late to correct other shortcomings of the receiver. > > 73, > Igor > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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