K3 Accessory Connector

[Phil Salas]

I THINK that the K3 accessory connector is a standard 15-pin high density
D-sub female connector.  Is this correct?  The connector in the photo only
has 14 pins.  I'm placing an order to Mouser and I want to go ahead and get
a couple of male connectors.  The HD-15 D-sub male is Mouser part number
156-1815 (plus a 156-2010 hood).

Phil - AD5X

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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

> I THINK that the K3 accessory connector is a standard 15-pin
> high density D-sub female connector.  Is this correct?  The
> connector in the photo only has 14 pins.  I'm placing an
> order to Mouser and I want to go ahead and get a couple of
> male connectors.  The HD-15 D-sub male is Mouser part number
> 156-1815 (plus a 156-2010 hood).

Yes, the Accessory port is a standard DE15S jack and the rear panel drawing
is slightly in error by showing only 14 pins.  I ordered a supply of the
mating DE15P connectors from Mouser and made up some cables for FSK, PTT and
the AuxBus to the KRC2.  

73,
Ed - W0YK

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[KK7P]

> I THINK that the K3 accessory connector is a standard 15-pin high density
> D-sub female connector.  Is this correct?

Yes, it is. DE-15P is the mating connector.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[Charly]

Along with the Anderson power poles, here is another bad choice for
connector...  the multi pin thing that is now used on computers for serial
and parallel interface (in some pin number or other) was a stupid choice on
computers and is even worse on a ham rig. My electronic engineer tells me
these things were designed for about 25 plug and unplug prior to expected
failure.

Not counting the difficulty of soldering to these tiny things.  What have
"modern" technicans in the ham world... got against EASY ????
And why think NEW is the same as BETTER ?
Did u ever step on one of these things?

I hope I misunderstood the connector name.

Gee wizz.

Oh, yes, keep my K3 order current !
Charles Harpole
[hidden email]

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[Julian, G4ILO]

I am surprised that you suggest these D connectors will only withstand
25 connections and disconnections. What do you suggest would be
better? Many ham radios (including my FT-817) and other gear use the
awful mini-DIN connectors with tiny pins that are about the thickness
of a piece of wire. An old digital camera of mine has one of those and
it has certainly lasted more than 25 connections, though it must be a
miracle. The computer D plugs are solid and robust by comparison,
whatever your engineer thinks.

--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 8/29/07, Charles Harpole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Along with the Anderson power poles, here is another bad choice for
> connector...  the multi pin thing that is now used on computers for serial
> and parallel interface (in some pin number or other) was a stupid choice on
> computers and is even worse on a ham rig. My electronic engineer tells me
> these things were designed for about 25 plug and unplug prior to expected
> failure.
>
> Not counting the difficulty of soldering to these tiny things.  What have
> "modern" technicans in the ham world... got against EASY ????
> And why think NEW is the same as BETTER ?
> Did u ever step on one of these things?
>
> I hope I misunderstood the connector name.
>
> Gee wizz.
>
> Oh, yes, keep my K3 order current !
> Charles Harpole
> [hidden email]
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See what you're getting into…before you go there
> http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

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[Charly]

So called  " D connectors" have design specifications issued by various mfg
of them.  Most list a limited life of 10 to 30 plug/unplug cycles.  That is
from the designers.  Of course, hams often push design specs well beyond
those published... a good example is my friend's 50 foot FREE STANDING Rohn
25G tower topped with a 5 el tribander (still standing after 16 yrs with no
guys!!!!-- crazy)

but much more than reliability is the issue of USE-ABILITY.  The K3 is a
field radio and under the most remote and demanding condx, anderson
Powerpole and these D thingies are the first frustrations.... UNLESS.... If
u have
1. steady soldering hands
2. very good eyesight
3.  extra patience
4.  proper small soldering tools
5. a proper crimper
6. extra care when plugging and unplugging, and
7.  a large parts store locally in ur area,

THEN, you can welcome these toy (D) or non standard (APP) connectors.  What
is better, altho old stuff--- Cinch Jones (or even Molex) and below that,
screw terminal strips and/or  binding posts.  If u r stuck with only bare
wire and MUST make a connection, sticking a bare wire tip into a Jones
socket is DO-ABLE, or even into a Molex.... try that with D s and even with
the APPs.

The JA folks who gave us DIN connectors are now roasting in Small Connector
Hell, where they have to solder 30 pin DINs with the firey heat of their
bare fingers and are dipped bodily into molten solder for every mistake.

Oh wish.

Charles Harpole
[hidden email]

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[Julian, G4ILO]

I found this specification sheet
http://www.erni.com/DB/PDF/TMC/ERNI-TMC-Connectors-e.pdf which
suggests that these connectors are good for 200 mating cycles (bet
that doesn't get past the spam filter!) That's more than enough for
me, though I see a 500 cycle rated version is also available.

Anyone who needs to make more disconnections than that should make a
short flying lead with a more robust connector on the end of it.

Don't forget this is a small radio so it has to have small connectors.
Also why should every buyer have to pay the cost of expensive military
grade connectors with a life cycle that most users will never reach?
The connectors Elecraft is using are the same as used on every other
radio and you don't hear constant complaints about failure from every
ham.

--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 8/29/07, Charles Harpole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So called  " D connectors" have design specifications issued by various mfg
> of them.  Most list a limited life of 10 to 30 plug/unplug cycles.  That is
> from the designers.  Of course, hams often push design specs well beyond
> those published... a good example is my friend's 50 foot FREE STANDING Rohn
> 25G tower topped with a 5 el tribander (still standing after 16 yrs with no
> guys!!!!-- crazy)
>
> but much more than reliability is the issue of USE-ABILITY.  The K3 is a
> field radio and under the most remote and demanding condx, anderson
> Powerpole and these D thingies are the first frustrations.... UNLESS.... If
> u have
> 1. steady soldering hands
> 2. very good eyesight
> 3.  extra patience
> 4.  proper small soldering tools
> 5. a proper crimper
> 6. extra care when plugging and unplugging, and
> 7.  a large parts store locally in ur area,
>
> THEN, you can welcome these toy (D) or non standard (APP) connectors.  What
> is better, altho old stuff--- Cinch Jones (or even Molex) and below that,
> screw terminal strips and/or  binding posts.  If u r stuck with only bare
> wire and MUST make a connection, sticking a bare wire tip into a Jones
> socket is DO-ABLE, or even into a Molex.... try that with D s and even with
> the APPs.
>
> The JA folks who gave us DIN connectors are now roasting in Small Connector
> Hell, where they have to solder 30 pin DINs with the firey heat of their
> bare fingers and are dipped bodily into molten solder for every mistake.
>
> Oh wish.
>
> Charles Harpole
> [hidden email]
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
>
>

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[David Pratt-2]

In a recent message, Charles Harpole <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>but much more than reliability is the issue of USE-ABILITY.  The K3 is
>a field radio and under the most remote and demanding condx, anderson
>Powerpole and these D thingies are the first frustrations....

Are you suggesting that there be a last minute change in the design of
the K3, Charles, thus delaying the dispatch of the K3 to those of us who
are happy with the product?

73
--
David G4DMP
Leeds, England, UK
------


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[Goody K3NG]

A stupid choice? In my meager 18 year IT & Electronics career I've never
seen a D-sub failure beyond mashed pins (which was due to operator error
or abuse). I've seen these go through hundreds of matings with no
problem. Also, you can still get these connectors at Radio Shaft, so I
think it's a great choice, better than those DIN connectors that are
much more of a pain to locate, solder, and assemble (especially the
mini-DINs). The fact that it's a 15 pin connector makes it even more
available as it's a computer SVGA port connector. You can go to Circuit
City and purchase an SVGA extension cable, cut off one end and you have
a prefab cable (no connector soldering).

And how is the D-Sub connector new? I think these things have been
around since the 70's?

What connector should they use? Please don't suggest a Jones connector
or those round metal Amphenol waterproof connectors. We don't need 20
amp connections and a connector that will withstand combat. An RG-45
might be a candidate, but it has half the pins and arguably isn't as
robust as a D sub. (An outright bad choice would have been one of those
72 pin SCSI connectors.)

72
Goody
K3NG


Charles Harpole wrote:

> Along with the Anderson power poles, here is another bad choice for
> connector... the multi pin thing that is now used on computers for
> serial and parallel interface (in some pin number or other) was a
> stupid choice on computers and is even worse on a ham rig. My
> electronic engineer tells me these things were designed for about 25
> plug and unplug prior to expected failure.
>
> Not counting the difficulty of soldering to these tiny things. What
> have "modern" technicans in the ham world... got against EASY ????
> And why think NEW is the same as BETTER ?
> Did u ever step on one of these things?
>
> I hope I misunderstood the connector name.
>
> Gee wizz.
>
> Oh, yes, keep my K3 order current !
> Charles Harpole
> [hidden email]
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See what you’re getting into…before you go there
> http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

--
Blog: http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/

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[David Cutter]

Somebody mentioned the reliability of military connectors.  One well-known military connector (Pattern 105 series) used in millions has a 500 insertions limit. Reliability is calculated from a change of resistance beyond a given limit at a given current, ambient temperature, etc.  Most applications are designed not to go near the limit, so, 'reliability' as a statistical tool is limited.  WE might consider an unreliable connector in a different way.

David
G3UNA

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[John Huggins]

Charles Harpole wrote:

> So called  " D connectors" have design specifications issued by
> various mfg of them.  Most list a limited life of 10 to 30 plug/unplug
> cycles.  That is from the designers.  Of course, hams often push
> design specs well beyond those published...

10-30 plug/unplug cycles is for those who use cheap components and/or
don't expect the need for many cycles (a printer for example).

If there is concern about cycling lifetime, consider using a D-Shell or
HD D-Shell that complies with MIL-DTL-24308; Cycling lifetime is much
higher that the 10-30.

  http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Downloads/MilSpec/Docs/MIL-DTL-24308/dtl24308.pdf

They are available and are more robust models of the classic D-Shells.  
They have been around for many decades now and are a fine choice.

>
> but much more than reliability is the issue of USE-ABILITY.  The K3 is
> a field radio and under the most remote and demanding condx, anderson
> Powerpole and these D thingies are the first frustrations....
> UNLESS.... If u have
> 1. steady soldering hands
> 2. very good eyesight
> 3.  extra patience
> 4.  proper small soldering tools
> 5. a proper crimper
> 6. extra care when plugging and unplugging, and
> 7.  a large parts store locally in ur area,

Granted, but even the most modest electrical/electronics workbench has
at least some of these items and once you have your cables complete and
made with good components and, perhaps, include a spare set, you should
be good to go.

>
> THEN, you can welcome these toy (D) or non standard (APP) connectors.

Cheap D-Shell connectors are toys.  Good D-Shell connectors are good
enough for harsh military conditions and are certainly not toys.  
Anderson Power Poles have become a standard.

> What is better, altho old stuff--- Cinch Jones (or even Molex) and
> below that, screw terminal strips and/or  binding posts.  If u r stuck
> with only bare wire and MUST make a connection, sticking a bare wire
> tip into a Jones socket is DO-ABLE, or even into a Molex.... try that
> with D s and even with the APPs.

Old has its place, but has its costs and frequently ignores valid progress.

>
> The JA folks who gave us DIN connectors are now roasting in Small
> Connector Hell, where they have to solder 30 pin DINs with the firey
> heat of their bare fingers and are dipped bodily into molten solder
> for every mistake.

Hahahaha... I think I agree with you on this one.
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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

 
Kind of silly, I have regular normal D connectors that
have worked fine after many thousands or connects
and disconnects.
I cant say I ever had a problem with the old stuff, it's the new
stuff that lasts a month, like cell phone charger hookups.



Brett
N2DTS

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[Fred N. van Kempen]

 
Brett writes:

> Kind of silly, I have regular normal D connectors that
> have worked fine after many thousands or connects
> and disconnects.
I tend to agree... my 1972-era PDP-11 systems all have
D-shell connectors for most I/O, and guess what, they
still work fine.  And yeah, that's "slightly more" then
the listed 200-to-500 matings, I can guarantee that! :)

Elecraft's choice of using the D-Sub15 is fine.  It's
solderable by most people, not too flimsy to just break
when being pulled at the connector end (try that with a
MiniDIN ..) and, as someone else already mentioned, you
can even grab a regular PC VGA cable, get rid of the
"other end" of the cable (that being a connector or a
monitor ;-) and then use it for the KayThree...

Cheers,

Fred PA4YBR/KA4YBR #05331

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[ac0h]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This is whole argument is ridiculous!

ANYBODY, who mates and de-mates a sub-D connector more than 50 times
needs to sit down and take a serious look at their operating practices.
A Cinch-Jones accessory connector? Come on! Why is the ridiculous Molex
connector considered a standard? Not because it's any better than the
APP but because it's what the manufacturers could get for pennies per
connector.


Charles Harpole wrote:

> So called  " D connectors" have design specifications issued by various
> mfg of them.  Most list a limited life of 10 to 30 plug/unplug cycles.
> That is from the designers.  Of course, hams often push design specs
> well beyond those published... a good example is my friend's 50 foot
> FREE STANDING Rohn 25G tower topped with a 5 el tribander (still
> standing after 16 yrs with no guys!!!!-- crazy)
>
> but much more than reliability is the issue of USE-ABILITY.  The K3 is a
> field radio and under the most remote and demanding condx, anderson
> Powerpole and these D thingies are the first frustrations.... UNLESS....
> If u have
> 1. steady soldering hands
> 2. very good eyesight
> 3.  extra patience
> 4.  proper small soldering tools
> 5. a proper crimper
> 6. extra care when plugging and unplugging, and
> 7.  a large parts store locally in ur area,
>
> THEN, you can welcome these toy (D) or non standard (APP) connectors.
> What is better, altho old stuff--- Cinch Jones (or even Molex) and below
> that, screw terminal strips and/or  binding posts.  If u r stuck with
> only bare wire and MUST make a connection, sticking a bare wire tip into
> a Jones socket is DO-ABLE, or even into a Molex.... try that with D s
> and even with the APPs.
>
> The JA folks who gave us DIN connectors are now roasting in Small
> Connector Hell, where they have to solder 30 pin DINs with the firey
> heat of their bare fingers and are dipped bodily into molten solder for
> every mistake.
>
> Oh wish.
>
> Charles Harpole
> [hidden email]
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
>

- --
R. Kevin Stover, ACØH
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[Mark Bayern]

> Come on! Why is the ridiculous Molex
> connector considered a standard? Not because it's any better than the
> APP but because it's what the manufacturers could get for pennies per
> connector.

I designed a CNC control in the middle 70's and we used Molex
connectors for DC power connections to the motherboard. These
connectors normally had one insertion cycle on them, at most some had
5-10 cycles. They were so bad that the systems would fail and we would
discover that the nylon had blackened with heat generated at the
connection. We tried switching to gold contacts, and it helped, but
the final solution was to hardwire (solder) the power leads to the
board.

So far my experience with the APP connectors is much better.

Mark  AD5SS
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[N2EY]

In a message dated 8/29/07 7:38:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> You can go to Circuit
> City and purchase an SVGA extension cable, cut off one end and you have
> a prefab cable (no connector soldering).

Don't even have to do that. As flat-panel displays have become inexpensive,
old CRT displays show up on the trash all the time, usually with their video
cables.
>
> And how is the D-Sub connector new? I think these things have been
> around since the 70's?
>

My 1959 (not a typo - it's foorty-eight years old) Newark catalog lists the
D-sub connectors.

73 de Jim, N2EY


**************************************
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all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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[PaulF]

 
> but much more than reliability is the issue of USE-ABILITY.  The K3 is
> a field radio and under the most remote and demanding condx, anderson
> Powerpole and these D thingies are the first frustrations....
> UNLESS....

For those who think the D and Anderson connectors are such a big
problem, why not just make up a set of short cables. On one end
attach the mating connectors required for the K3. On the other end,
attach the connector meeting your requirement.


Paul
K5ESW
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[Mike S-8]

At 03:59 AM 8/29/2007, Charles Harpole wrote...
>So called  " D connectors" have design specifications issued by
>various mfg of them.  Most list a limited life of 10 to 30 plug/unplug
>cycles.  That is from the designers.

You must be looking at some cheap Chinese clone. Please cite the other
manufacturers who constitute "most," and the total size of your sample.

Cinch originated the design, and their basic model (
http://www.cinch.com/view_sub_product_line.cinch?section_id=24&sub_section_id=113&section_title=D-subminiature 
) is rated for 500 cycles.

Long time experience with these connectors in data applications shows
that to be a very conservative number.

I can't think of any style connector which offers a better mix of low
cost, ready availability, wide choice of sizes, and reliable operation.
Exactly what connector are you thinking would have been a better
choice?

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[Goody K3NG]

Cinch Jones made sense back when you needed pins to handle 10 or 15 amps
of filament supply and manufacturing couldn't technically or
economically produce some of the connectors we have today.  It's an
antiquated connector for things like audio and control lines.

I always thought the Molex connector was one of the cheesiest connectors
around and I would choose binding posts as a standard over these.  It's
more a mate-once and forget about it connector.  I think the robustness
of a Molex and an APP is about the same (doing the step on in test),
however the genderless nature of APP puts it over the top.  APP is now a
standard, period.

Have you used an APP?  It's a piece of cake to insert a bare wire into
one of these, either on the mating end or the cable end and on *any*
connector since they have no gender.  With a DB-9/15/25 it's easy to
insert a small gauge wire into a female connector (which is what I
believe is used on the K3), and arguably easier to get positive contact
than you will on a slotted Jones female pin.

The soldering argument against the D sub connector is a moot issue.  As
I mentioned earlier, cheap prefab cables are available at your local
mall.  Even Wally World probably has them.  You can even snip the cables
off of dead monitors in the dumpster at the office.  It doesn't get much
easier and is in the true scrounger spirit of Amateur Radio.



Charles Harpole wrote:
>
>
> THEN, you can welcome these toy (D) or non standard (APP) connectors.  
> What is better, altho old stuff--- Cinch Jones (or even Molex) and
> below that, screw terminal strips and/or  binding posts.  If u r stuck
> with only bare wire and MUST make a connection, sticking a bare wire
> tip into a Jones socket is DO-ABLE, or even into a Molex.... try that
> with D s and even with the APPs.
>

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[wayne burdick]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

> I found this specification sheet
> http://www.erni.com/DB/PDF/TMC/ERNI-TMC-Connectors-e.pdf which
> suggests that these connectors are good for 200 mating cycles....

The RS232 connector on my K3 (S/N 00001) has already had a couple of
thousand mating cycles. (It gets more action than I do, for sure.) I do
this for fun while waiting for code to compile.

Seriously, in a couple of hundred years as a ham (well, it feels that
way), I've never seen a D connector with a bad or even loose
connection. That's why these things have been around since the
Pleistocene.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


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