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K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

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Richard-6

Re: K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

Initially, I was using CAT. Now I’m trying RTS.

Just called CQ and the K3S never came out of transmit.

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Ted Bryant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I find the same transmit delay when using my Icom 756ProIII as when using my K3. That indicates the transmit delay is coming from the software, not the radio.
> The delay is consistent, ~ 1 second. Even so, to me a 1 second delay is not a problem. On both radios manual PTT is instantaneous.
>
> Richard, how are you doing PTT - DTR? RTS? VOX?
>
> 73, Ted W4NZ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 12:20 AM
> To: Richard
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing
>
> RIchard,
>
> There are no long delays inherent in the K3/K3S transmit timing. It should be ready to transmit RF within 5 to 15 ms of PTT assertion, depending on mode and other factors.
>
> My apologies; I have not been closely reading this thread. I’ll come up to speed and get back to you.
>
> If this is a transceiver problem, we’ll fix it ASAP.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ----
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
>> On Feb 22, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I’m missing something, but the “timing” problem with which some of us are fighting has nothing to do with computer clock accuracy. Even if the computer time is off, it’s the only time reference WSJT-X has to work with.
>>
>> So the instant the computer tells the software it’s time to transmit, BANG! WSJT-X goes into transmit RIGHT NOW, as it should, late or not, the software doesn’t know and doesn’t care.
>>
>> Our problem is that when WSJT-X goes into Transmit at the top of the new segment and tells the K3S to transmit, the K3S DOESN’T transmit. Its almost always late by 2 or 3, sometimes 4 or 5 full seconds. In my case, it eventually doesn’t transmit AT ALL!
>>
>> That’s not a software problem or a computer clock problem. It looks like a K3S problem, and I’d sure like to see the solution before I dump this radio.
>>
>> Richard - W4KBX
>>
>>> On Feb 22, 2018, at 8:36 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you are seeing a majority of the decodes in which the DT is less than <0.5 seconds, your computer clock is close enough for reliable contacts and decodes. The software should handle decodes with a DT up to 2.0 seconds, but in many cases this depends largely {very largely in fact} on signal quality. Both as transmitted and received.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Bob, K4TAX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2/22/2018 7:28 PM, Nr4c wrote:
>>>> Check the clocks on the computers. Sync them to a time server.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> ...nr4c. bill
>
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Ted Bryant

Re: K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Understood, Bob.

My point was that in the radio, with the VOX correctly adjusted, response to a transmit command using VOX is virtually indistinguishable from PTT. Any significant delay is on the release. Agree with you that PTT is the better choice. Only mention VOX because that is what was chosen in the setup in this case.

Btw, I copied your setup parameters for my K3 in the WSJT-X setup and I still get the same, consistent 1-second delay before audio is transmitted. This is not a problem, for me anyway. But those who are seeing longer, varying length delays, it's puzzling. Computer OS problems, possibly?

73, Ted W4NZ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

But there is a delay in WSJT-X. See the F2 Setup, Advanced tab and Miscellaneous. Make sure the TX Delay is set to 0.1 sec. This is the time delay between PTT and start of audio. Also, if one uses CAT control, then be sure the VOX on the radio is OFF. Don't use both.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/23/2018 8:19 AM, Ted Bryant wrote:

briancom

Re: K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

In reply to this post by Ted Bryant

Agree. Have exclusively used VOX for FT8 and JT65.
The 100+ countries worked apparently saw no issue either.
Don't hear any predominant "others transmitting earlier". Occasionally
but that may be their clock.

This is with a K3 not K3S. WSJT-X has no radio chosen. I could never
get WSJT-X (or JT65) to attach to the K3 via a LPBRIDGE virtual port.
If I directly connect to a dedicated serial port rig/wsjtx rig connects
OK. Can't live with that.

Note: This is WIN7 32 bit and a slightly older version of LPBRIDGE, the
latest version of WSJT-X and the computer's internal sound card.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 2/23/2018 14:19 PM, Ted Bryant wrote:

> Hardly. There is no delay adjustment for VOX activation, just sensitivity.
> if the VOX sensitivity is set correctly, activation is virtually
> instantaneous. It is the VOX release where the delay is adjustable.
>
> 73, Ted W4NZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole (NK7Z)
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 8:55 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing
>
> Yes! I never use VOX for that reason.
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> https://www.nk7z.net
>
> On 02/23/2018 05:48 AM, John Harper wrote:
>> He's using VOX. Does that not introduce an additional delay over what
>> PTT would have?
>>
>> John AE5X
>> https://ae5x.blogspot.com
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wayne burdick

Re: K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

Administrator

Thanks, everyone, for weighing in on this.

K3/K3S VOX is very fast on attack and can be set to very fast on release as well. It should be just as fast for data modes as for voice modes. This means you can test it by simply putting the radio into SSB mode: set the VOX delay to something small (say 0.05, or 50 ms). Set the VOX gain using the menu. If it’s slow, *then* it’s our problem.... but it shouldn’t be slow.

PTT should work equally well.

Wayne
N6KR

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 7:32 AM, brian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Agree. Have exclusively used VOX for FT8 and JT65.
> The 100+ countries worked apparently saw no issue either.
> Don't hear any predominant "others transmitting earlier". Occasionally but that may be their clock.
>
> This is with a K3 not K3S. WSJT-X has no radio chosen. I could never get WSJT-X (or JT65) to attach to the K3 via a LPBRIDGE virtual port.
> If I directly connect to a dedicated serial port rig/wsjtx rig connects OK. Can't live with that.
>
> Note: This is WIN7 32 bit and a slightly older version of LPBRIDGE, the latest version of WSJT-X and the computer's internal sound card.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
>
>
>
> On 2/23/2018 14:19 PM, Ted Bryant wrote:
>> Hardly. There is no delay adjustment for VOX activation, just sensitivity.
>> if the VOX sensitivity is set correctly, activation is virtually
>> instantaneous. It is the VOX release where the delay is adjustable.
>>
>> 73, Ted W4NZ
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole (NK7Z)
>> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 8:55 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing
>>
>> Yes! I never use VOX for that reason.
>>
>> 73s and thanks,
>> Dave
>> NK7Z
>> https://www.nk7z.net
>>
>> On 02/23/2018 05:48 AM, John Harper wrote:
>>> He's using VOX. Does that not introduce an additional delay over what
>>> PTT would have?
>>>
>>> John AE5X
>>> https://ae5x.blogspot.com
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> delivered to [hidden email]
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> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

In reply to this post by Richard-6

Richard,

The most common cause of "not coming out of transmit" is that you have 2
sources of PTT.
VOX and CAT, or VOX and RTS, or CAT and RTS, or any other combination.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/23/2018 10:14 AM, Richard wrote:
> Initially, I was using CAT. Now I’m trying RTS.
>
> Just called CQ and the K3S never came out of transmit.
>
>> On Feb 23, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Ted Bryant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I find the same transmit delay when using my Icom 756ProIII as when using my K3. That indicates the transmit delay is coming from the software, not the radio.
>> The delay is consistent, ~ 1 second. Even so, to me a 1 second delay is not a problem. On both radios manual PTT is instantaneous.
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3 And WSJT-X FT8 Timing

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

To save work, I'm going to copy and paste a portion of a message I sent to my DX
club back in September 2017. In it I slightly facetiously coined the term
"imaginary modes" for the WSJT-X suite and explained it in the footnotes copied
here:

"* I call them imaginary because the programs actually decode signals that
aren't there (1), or use databases of callsigns as lookup tables to guess
received calls (2).

In a discussion I had with one of the FT8 developers about the TX delay in
Elecraft radios causing transmission to be delayed until after the decode window
opened, he opined that it might not matter because the decoder can "decode"
signals that it never heard.

(1) Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that
up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still
be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or
parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8
message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle
and end so missing the start or end may have less impact
than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be
lost and they contain no message information."

(2) Another compelling paper discusses JT65 as used on EME.
http://www.sm2cew.com/Digital%20communications%20using%20minimal%20transfer.pdf "

So not to worry, your computers can continue to work each other without
worrying about VOX delay.

Wes N7WS
On 2/23/2018 7:57 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> My concern with using VOX is that the radio has to receive audio before it
> goes into transmit. Thus one can almost be assured some data will be lost.
> Hence I find the better PTT choice is CAT with a 0.1 second TX delay before
> audio is sent to the radio from the software. This is all available from the
> F2 Setup menu in WSJT-X.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>