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K3 Audio routing question

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W8JI

Re: K3 Audio routing question

You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We
often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area
nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other
directions to scan for signals.

In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one
channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in
frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would
obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the
utility in what you do.

The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls
while in that mode. I would prefer a fast "balance" or fader that is easy to
grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are
asking for.

I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab.
Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode.

http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg

73 Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "g0afh" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question

> Hi Don,
>
> Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can
> achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX
> with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and
> stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I
> am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As
> the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on
> the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the
> audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both
> ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the
> filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to
> press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to
> diversity mode listening to both receivers again.
>
> Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked
> together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a
> given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would
> have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon.
>
> Hope this makes more sense.
> 73
> Ian
> G0AFH
>
> Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each
>> with their own antenna.
>> I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when
>> doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity.
>> Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> The Smiths wrote:
>>
>>> Lyle,
>>>
>>> As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person
>>> wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time.
>>> Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available
>>> for use when in Diversity...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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K5RC

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by g0afh

After using the diversity feature with two receiving arrays for the last
season on 160 and 80, I am with Joe 100% on this one. The fades and peaks I
experience in the two ears are summed in the brain far more effectively than
I would have imagined. On 80 meters (our RX arrays are 800' separated), we
actually hear different stations in each ear coming over different paths.
The really motivated operators have trained themselves to take advantage of
this "pileup separation filter."

You would have to add a computer programmed for Laplace Transforms to gain
the summing effect you desire. The audio mixer is not capable of summing
peaks and cancelling nulls.

The K3 diversity feature is unique and requires a paradigm shift when you
first start using it. It is like hearing surround-sound for the first time
and trying to correlate the spatial positions of the various musical
instruments. After a while, you can just relax and enjoy the effect without
dwelling on the technology.

Tom Taormina, K5RC

Virginia City NV

Home of W7RN and K7RC

<http://k5rc.cc> http://k5rc.cc FOC 1760

"Communication is the problem to the answer" - 10cc

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ON4WIX

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by W8JI

Tom,

about the "balance" control - my K3 is set up like the way you describe. The
inner knob (AF) controls the volume while the outer knob (SUB) determines
the balance between main and sub receivers. When placed totally CCW, I have
only the main RX in my phones. Fully CW yields only sub RX audio. I usually
have it placed in the center position so I hear both RXs at equal volume. I
can't remember how I set it up (it was added in an early firmware update)
but I'm sure someone will post the answer here.

73
Glenn ON4WIX / OR4W
----- Original Message -----
From: "W8JI Tom" <[hidden email]>
To: "g0afh" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question

> You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We
> often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area
> nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other
> directions to scan for signals.
>
> In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one
> channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in
> frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would
> obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the
> utility in what you do.
>
> The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls
> while in that mode. I would prefer a fast "balance" or fader that is easy
> to
> grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you
> are
> asking for.
>
> I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab.
> Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode.
>
> http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "g0afh" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
>
>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can
>> achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX
>> with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and
>> stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I
>> am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As
>> the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on
>> the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the
>> audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both
>> ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the
>> filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to
>> press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to
>> diversity mode listening to both receivers again.
>>
>> Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked
>> together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a
>> given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would
>> have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon.
>>
>> Hope this makes more sense.
>> 73
>> Ian
>> G0AFH
>>
>> Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each
>>> with their own antenna.
>>> I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when
>>> doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity.
>>> Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> The Smiths wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lyle,
>>>>
>>>> As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person
>>>> wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time.
>>>> Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it
>>>> available
>>>> for use when in Diversity...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by The Smiths

> For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY,
> but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my
> antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both
> headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over
> another.

In your case you don't have true diversity - you are not hearing the
same signal on both receivers. You could achieve the result you seek
simply by using the dual receive mode and locking the two VFOs on
the same frequency. Again, it does not require any programming
time and does not create the possibility for operator error in
diversity.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 7/5/2010 11:57 PM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> Okay Joe,
>
>
>
> Your point is very well taken.. I understand what you are saying very
> clearly. I have the scope, and I've set it to look at phase between
> the two channels. I guess I need to clarify something. When I'm in
> diversity mode I don't seem to have both signals on both antennas at
> the same time.
>
> This is where we are having a problem communicating. I'm not going
> to disagree with your theory that the signals WOULD cancel out the
> stereo imaging if I were to push one phase onto the other. I believe
> this is true, and I know it for fact.
>
>
>
> However, where I am having an issue is when my poor receiving
> Vertical antenna is NOT receiving a signal my Well receiving Horz
> antenna is, and then Some times reverse. I would like to be able to
> "mix" the main onto the sub, and the sub onto the main's earphone
>
>
>
> For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY,
> but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my
> antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both
> headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over
> another.
>
> Admittedly, I don't have the best "diversity" set up here at my QTH,
> so for me it's more important that I keep a constant signal in both
> ears rather than one at a time.
>
>
>
> Now, just for the sake of it, I would like you to tune to a signal
> that you are having the phasing sound with in diversity mode. Then,
> go to the utility and enter in !BEFF; in the terminal window. I
> would then like you to email me back and let me know that you didn't
> hear BOTH of your antennas at the same time, in both ears. I would be
> interested to know if you get NO signal at all from the same very
> station you were just listening to in both ears. Or even a reduced
> signal level. From my experience I've never had a signal cancel on
> me, I've only had it double in loudness. I'm sorry, I know this goes
> against what we both agree on when it comes to XY phase, but it's
> just the way it is. Do it for yourself and stop thinking theory.. Try
> reality. (I don't mean that as an insult, but rather a practical
> challenge.)
>
>
>
> Again, even if this was the worst idea, it's still not going to
> affect YOUR rig if you never turn it on. This isn't an argument.. I
> was merely backing up the reasoning that the other person made the
> request. So, other than your return email to me after you've
> completed my test, can we PLEASE end this thread? Were beating a dead
> horse.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts
> with Hotmail.
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George & Jan

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by ON4WIX

Config: Sub AF - set to BALANCE to have the SUB AF GAIN control to become a
main/sub AF balance control when the sub receiver is turned on.

George
AI4VZ

--------------------------------------------------
Tom,

about the "balance" control - my K3 is set up like the way you describe.

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P.B. Christensen

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by ON4WIX

> The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls
> while in that mode. I would prefer a fast "balance" or fader that is easy
> to grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you
> are asking for.

Tom,

You and others may want to consider this simple mod to the K3, that for me
has made a big ergonomic difference in the operation of the K3's balance
control during split operations. The balance control is now on the longer
inner concentric knob by keeping the AF and RF knobs together on the same
control.

Keep in mind that this mod could be done through firmware and although I
have not seen it as an optional menu feature, I may have overlooked it in
past firmware updates. So before anyone makes the hardware change, it would
be a good idea to see if Lyle had previously added it in firmware:

http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2009-September/115677.html

Of course, a couple panel legends require new labels. I used Brother
P-Touch labels that blend nicely against the existing silk-screened legends.
The link above references old URLs to photos of the modified PCB. They are
now at:

http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-1.jpg

http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-1.jpg

Paul, W9AC

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P.B. Christensen

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by g0afh

Sorry, duplication of links. The board before modification...

http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-1.jpg

And after...

http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-2.jpg

Paul, W9AC
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The Smiths

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by W8JI

There is a balance control on your rig, you have to assign the SUB AF Gain in the Config menu to "balance" mode, but without the AB BA Mixer on too, you would only have audio in the left or the right. With the mixing ON, AND balance control you can have mono audio in diversity mode with both speakers active.

Obviously others are seeing my point now. It can be a VERY useful tool, even for diversity mode.

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:22:45 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
>
> You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We
> often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area
> nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other
> directions to scan for signals.
>
> In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one
> channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in
> frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would
> obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the
> utility in what you do.
>
> The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls
> while in that mode. I would prefer a fast "balance" or fader that is easy to
> grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are
> asking for.
>
> I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab.
> Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode.
>
> http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "g0afh" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
>
>
> > Hi Don,
> >
> > Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can
> > achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX
> > with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and
> > stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I
> > am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As
> > the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on
> > the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the
> > audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both
> > ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the
> > filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to
> > press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to
> > diversity mode listening to both receivers again.
> >
> > Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked
> > together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a
> > given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would
> > have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon.
> >
> > Hope this makes more sense.
> > 73
> > Ian
> > G0AFH
> >
> > Don Wilhelm wrote:
> >> Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each
> >> with their own antenna.
> >> I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when
> >> doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity.
> >> Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> The Smiths wrote:
> >>
> >>> Lyle,
> >>>
> >>> As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person
> >>> wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time.
> >>> Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available
> >>> for use when in Diversity...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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The Smiths

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned on and this discussion would be over.
Some times it's just easier to let a feature go that others don't see the use for instead of policing how others use their radios. This is NOT a feature that would affect your operation if it were made available.

I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said exactly what I just did. However, what disappoints me more is the fact that Joe, you didn't even bother to try it out like I asked you too... You're mind is just made up before you've seen what it actually does on some weak signals.
There is more than just myself out here that don't have the perfect Diversity antenna set up. Many people in small QTH's have exactally what I have for a set up, and this feature would help them out greatly. You've already heard from others that have their ideas on how to use this feature too.

Yes, you're right, If I wanted to operate in Dual receive mode and track my VFO's together then make sure antennas were set up the way that they need to be, adjust all the other features, make sure the Width is set together... Or, I could just turn on the Mixer!

Now, this has become an argument. At this point we should STOP talking about this.. We're agreeing at the same time we're arguing....Enough said.

> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:17:59 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
>
>
> > For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY,
> > but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my
> > antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both
> > headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over
> > another.
>
> In your case you don't have true diversity - you are not hearing the
> same signal on both receivers. You could achieve the result you seek
> simply by using the dual receive mode and locking the two VFOs on
> the same frequency. Again, it does not require any programming
> time and does not create the possibility for operator error in
> diversity.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 7/5/2010 11:57 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> >
> > Okay Joe,
> >
> >
> >
> > Your point is very well taken.. I understand what you are saying very
> > clearly. I have the scope, and I've set it to look at phase between
> > the two channels. I guess I need to clarify something. When I'm in
> > diversity mode I don't seem to have both signals on both antennas at
> > the same time.
> >
> > This is where we are having a problem communicating. I'm not going
> > to disagree with your theory that the signals WOULD cancel out the
> > stereo imaging if I were to push one phase onto the other. I believe
> > this is true, and I know it for fact.
> >
> >
> >
> > However, where I am having an issue is when my poor receiving
> > Vertical antenna is NOT receiving a signal my Well receiving Horz
> > antenna is, and then Some times reverse. I would like to be able to
> > "mix" the main onto the sub, and the sub onto the main's earphone
> >
> >
> >
> > For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY,
> > but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my
> > antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both
> > headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over
> > another.
> >
> > Admittedly, I don't have the best "diversity" set up here at my QTH,
> > so for me it's more important that I keep a constant signal in both
> > ears rather than one at a time.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now, just for the sake of it, I would like you to tune to a signal
> > that you are having the phasing sound with in diversity mode. Then,
> > go to the utility and enter in !BEFF; in the terminal window. I
> > would then like you to email me back and let me know that you didn't
> > hear BOTH of your antennas at the same time, in both ears. I would be
> > interested to know if you get NO signal at all from the same very
> > station you were just listening to in both ears. Or even a reduced
> > signal level. From my experience I've never had a signal cancel on
> > me, I've only had it double in loudness. I'm sorry, I know this goes
> > against what we both agree on when it comes to XY phase, but it's
> > just the way it is. Do it for yourself and stop thinking theory.. Try
> > reality. (I don't mean that as an insult, but rather a practical
> > challenge.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Again, even if this was the worst idea, it's still not going to
> > affect YOUR rig if you never turn it on. This isn't an argument.. I
> > was merely backing up the reasoning that the other person made the
> > request. So, other than your return email to me after you've
> > completed my test, can we PLEASE end this thread? Were beating a dead
> > horse.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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The Smiths

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by The Smiths

On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 16:16:29 +0000, The Smiths wrote:

>Now, this has become an argument.

That happens when some of the people talking don't know what they're
talking about. Tom (JI), Tom (RC), Paul, Joe, and Guy know what they're
talking about. They not only have the experience, they understand the
physics. There is more to this than some folks understand. I urge them
to go back and study my most early in this thread.

Pete asks,

>Isn't the whole point of diversity reception in the K3
>that the receivers **are** synchronized to the same clock?

That puts them on VERY nearly the same frequency, but the RF inputs to
the two RXs are from different antennas. Think about what W8JI has said,
which is absolutely correct -- that is, to be effective in DIVERSITY
mode, antennas must be widely separated. WHY? Because MOST fading is
the result of cancellations between a direct wave and a reflected wave
arriving at some particular point. This is EXACTLY the same as picket-
fencing on VHF and UHF that we hear when we or the other station is
mobile, or when there is a reflection from an airplane completing the
path. When the signal peaks, the two delay between the two signals are
some multiple of wavelengths so that they are precisely in phase AT THAT
FREQUENCY. At some other frequency, they will be some degree of out of
phase, and for some delay they will be 180 degrees out of phase. That
fading is periodic, and is wavelength and frequency dependent. That's
why it's fast at VHF/UHF, and MUCH slower on 160M -- indeed, that's what
we're hearing when there's LONG, DEEP QSB on 160M.

Diversity helps this by having two RXs listening to two antenna that are
SPATIALLY separated from each other, so that when the null is at one
antenna, the peak is more likely to be at the other (or, with less
separation, the null is not so deep). But it is the TIME DIFFERENCE
between these antennas, plus the delay in the feedlines of the two
antennas, that produces the time offset between the two signals. And
that time offset produces a phase difference that depends on the time
and frequency. It is the relation of the time and frequency to phase
shift that produces the ROTATION that several guys have talked about.
That's the swimmy sound you hear in the headphones in diversity mode
with widely separated antennas.

73, Jim Brown K9YC

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Kok Chen

Re: K3 Audio routing question

On Jul 6, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> Because MOST fading is
> the result of cancellations between a direct wave and a reflected wave
> arriving at some particular point.

HF fading is actually a very interesting phenomenon, and definitely not just a case of signal cancellation.

If you decompose an RF signal into in-phase and the quadrature components, and then allow each component to go through a scattering function that has independent Gaussian statistics, the resultant signal vector has what is called the bivariate Gaussian distribution. The most interesting thing about this is the modulus of a bivariate Gaussian has a ta, da.... Rayleigh Distribution!

[Gaussian statistics (the "Bell curve") is something very common in science, being the direct consequence of something in mathematics called the Central Limit Theorem.]

Phenomena such as flat fading and selective fading (the reason why we need synchronous AM detection and why we use two tones in RTTY) that we encounter on HF occurs in a Rayleigh channel even when the signal is not multi-pathed.

Multipath fading (also called Rician fading) is the result of cancellation of signals from different paths. On HF, the scattering function of the ionosphere is enough to produce fading, without the need of multipath.

Now, if you want very rapid fading (which we commonly classify as "flutter"), that is a different story -- I have only been able to produce it by introducing multiple paths.

If you run an HF Channel Simulator such as PathSim (on Windows) or cocoaPath (on Mac OS X), you will notice that both flat fading and selective fading occur when the ionospheric model consists of only a single path. Both of these programs are free (and written by hams :-). Way back when, Johan KC7WW had written a channel simulator for Linux, but I haven't seen mention of it for a while now.

Russ AA7QU has made some recordings of what CW and SSB sound like through an HF channel simulator (you'll need to excuse Russ for some of his proselytizing, he is a good friend and a friend of the Mac OS :-):

http://adventure-radio.org/wiki/index.php?title=OOK_vs_21st_Century

Indeed, one way you can lab test a receiver for HF conditions and get repeatable results, is to run a signal (CW, RTTY, etc) through an HF Channel Simulator and into an SSB transmitter (use a dummy load, or people who listens would think there is a solar flare on :-). Then tap off the transmitter output into the receiver under test. Channel simulators not only can model the ionosphere but can add a known amount of noise to model different signal-to-noise ratios.

73
Chen, W7AY

Some quick references (you can find many more using Google):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_distribution
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BivariateNormalDistribution.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rician_fading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_distribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem
http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaPath/Contents/technical.html

If you have access to IEEE Transactions (libraries or if you are an IEEE member) I highly recommend reading the Watterson paper that I referenced in the cocoaPath site.

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David Woolley (E.L)

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by The Smiths

What you are trying to achieve is a (rather expensive) implementation of
a, single, non-steerable, phased array antenna. If there really is no
phase difference, you've effectively synthesised a diagonally polarized
antenna (although I can't work out why your signal polarisations should
only occupy one quadrant). You don't have a diversity system. You
could achieve the same effect by summing at the input frequency after a
buffer/pre-amplifier.

If you actually summed both with and without a 180 degree shift between
the two signals, you could feed them into the main and sub-rx and get
true diversity between (for the diagonal case) the + and - 45 degree
polarisations. Whether that is any better than true diversity between 0
and 90 degrees, I don't know.

Top quoted through policy, not belief.

The Smiths wrote:
>
> When I have phase shifting between the two antennas I don't have
> Phase shifting in my audio Left and right. In that I mean, if I look at the
> voltage on the o'scope I do not see the signal coming out of my head
> phones phasing from positive voltage to a negative voltage in the
> inverse between the two headphone outputs (L/R).
> Unlike AC where when one side swings negative, if you were to add the inverse you would cancel out the entire signal (as you guys keep saying is the case), this is not the case with the diversity reception here at my QTH (and no I don't live in the bermuda triangle). The phase is in the antenna reception.. Not the audio that we listen to. When my vertical is picking up a vertical phased signal it is very possible that my Horizontal antenna is not receiving any signal at all.. Therefore if I have Mix on so that the sub is placed in the Main's headphone I do not cancel out the audio in the both ears. I am simply adding AUDIO, not phase, to one side of my headphone or the other.
>

--
David Woolley
"we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we
encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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Scott Prather-2

6 Meter Output From KRC2

In reply to this post by The Smiths

I have a KRC2 that, among other things, I would like to use to switch
between an HF antenna below 30 MHz and a 6 M antenna when the 50 MHz band is
selected. My KRC2 microcontroller came with V1.5 from the factory.

Because the KRC2 was originally designed with the 10 HF bands in mind, I'm
finding that documentation concerning its use on 6 meters to be lacking.
After searching the reflector archives, I found an e-mail from 23 January,
2009, which states that KRC2s with V1.5 firmware include bandmaps which
allow 6 meters to appear as XV1. However, nothing I've tried in the
configuration menu will cause XV1 to change when 6 meters is selected.
Instead, XV1 changes when a transverter band is defined and selected (this
is what I would expect). The only way I can associate any switched output
with 6 meters is to set KRC2 Band6=b10 in the config menu. With this
setting, I see a switched output on the 10 meter contacts for both 6 and 10
meters. This will suffice for now, but I need a stand-alone switched output
for 6 meters.

I can't get the KRC2 configuration utility to work (it will connect long
enough to read the FW version then loose connectivity), so setting an
alternative bandmap isn't possible using this tool. Has anyone learned the
secret for setting a stand-alone switched output on 6 meters from the KRC2?
Will XV1 be enabled for 6 meters if a certain jumper is installed?

Tnx,

Scott
N7NB

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: 6 Meter Output From KRC2

Scott,

KRC2 firmware version 1.5 *should* include 6 meters? Have you tried to
see if the XV1 outputs activate when the K3 is set to 6 meters? It is
supposed to be activated by the AUXBUS.
Jack Brindle's post of 5/30/2010 makes a definitive statement:
-------------------------------------------------------

The latest KRC2 code adds 6-meter support for the K3. It enables the XV1 terminal when the K3 indicates it is on 6 meters, and when cycling through the band selections with the F1 and F2 keys.

Jack Brindle, W6FB

------------------------------------------------------

Have you tried downloading a fresh copy of the KRC2 Download Program?

73,
Don W3FPR

Scott Prather wrote:

> I have a KRC2 that, among other things, I would like to use to switch
> between an HF antenna below 30 MHz and a 6 M antenna when the 50 MHz band is
> selected. My KRC2 microcontroller came with V1.5 from the factory.
>
> snip...
>
> I can't get the KRC2 configuration utility to work (it will connect long
> enough to read the FW version then loose connectivity), so setting an
> alternative bandmap isn't possible using this tool. Has anyone learned the
> secret for setting a stand-alone switched output on 6 meters from the KRC2?
> Will XV1 be enabled for 6 meters if a certain jumper is installed?
>
>
>

W8JI

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

Hi David,

The Beverage and the vertical are both vertically polarized.

A single vertical is a very broad pattern with much less directivity than a
Beverage. Since for receiving signal-to-noise is closely tied to directive
pattern and not gain or antenna type, the vertical will have significantly
less signal-to-noise ratio.

By mixing them both in one channel the beverage is really being phased
against the vertical, and this will almost certainly be better than the
vertical alone. Anything quieter (more directive) mixed in would improve the
poor S/N of the vertical. This is because the combination of the vertical
and Beverage is more directional than the vertical alone, so being more
directional it has to be quieter.

I have no doubt the improvement seen by mixing the two is very real, but it
would be better accomplished by using a noise canceller or phasing unit that
allows adjustment of phase and levels, rather than random phase and level
mixing.

I'm not opposed in the least to having an ability to mix the main and sub
channels at the audio output in diversity mode. Even though it is not
diversity, it could have some uses for some people. For example, it could be
used when receiving multiple directions on SSB. It would not be good for
phasing two antennas, because the K3 slowly rotates phase shift between main
and sub as the dial is rotated to new frequencies. It would be better to use
a noise canceller to do that in front of the receivers if the receivers are
not being used for split directions.

I just strongly feel if allowed it should be something that can be locked
out to prevent it from accidentally being applied to a system that is true
diversity, since it would hurt that system. It could help people wanting to
receive different directions at the same time using common bandwidths and
other settings between both channels. maybe it is useful, but just under a
different name (not in diversity) and way to activate.

> What you are trying to achieve is a (rather expensive) implementation of
> a, single, non-steerable, phased array antenna.

It steers when the dial is turned, because main to sub phase rotates to a
new difference as the dial is turned.

If there really is no
> phase difference, you've effectively synthesised a diagonally polarized
> antenna (although I can't work out why your signal polarisations should
> only occupy one quadrant). You don't have a diversity system. You
> could achieve the same effect by summing at the input frequency after a
> buffer/pre-amplifier.

Both a Beverage and vertical are vertically polarized. It would not be
diagonal polarization in most directions, it would mostly be vertical in any
phase combination since both antennas primarily have vertical response.

73 Tom

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Craig Smith

Re: K3 Audio routing question

I've been following this discussion (at least the parts that aren't
super-technical) since I recently installed the sub RX and plan to use it
for CW contesting.

As a new sub RX user I may not understand all the ins and outs of it, but
here was my plan.

When running, I like to use Split with the xmit freq on VFO B. I then tune
the calling stations, if required, using VFO A. I normally use a fairly
wide BW (300-500 Hz) to avoid much tuning on strong signals. I was hoping
to use the "diversity" mode for this so that I could monitor two antennas at
once, one in each ear. If copy became difficult or if the other antenna was
creating more interference than help, it would be useful to use the
"balance" control to focus my attention on the signal I was trying to copy.
I understand this is not true diversity, at least in the extreme. But it
does seem useful, at least to my simple-minded way of looking at things.

I'm starting to prepare for the IARU contest this weekend, so if any of you
more experienced sub-RX users have any suggestions please share them.

73 Craig AC0DS

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The Smiths

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

" You could achieve the same effect by summing at the input frequency after a
buffer/pre-amplifier."

Or, I could just turn on the Mixer and do it all with one push of a button. Thank you for your input, I don't disagree with what you've said, I'm just suggesting that it's easier to push a single button on the rig instead of making buffer input mixers to do the same thing.

Something tells me that Wayne or Eric will implement this function some day in the feature. Like myself, I don't think that they feel it's necessary to "police" how others make use of their radios. After all, it's just a matter of turning it on along with the other modes the mixer can run in now. The code has already been written... Now, Can we end this thread? (for the 4th time)

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by The Smiths

> If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has
> already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned
> on and this discussion would be over.

That's about as sanctimonious and stupid as I've heard on this list
for a long time. It is obviously based in the ignorance of a long
time appliance operator who has no idea what he's talking about.

Wayne has regularly indicated that he has a very long list of
programming items for the K3 and that he does not like to spend
time on items that can already be accomplished, that create added
"options" ("lock out") or opportunities to confuse most users,
and most certainly can result in decreased or improper performance
of the K3. Your temper tantrum meets all three of those tests.

> This is NOT a feature that would affect your operation if it
> were made available.

This is most certainly a misfeature that would result in decreased
performance to my receiver if it were enabled.

> I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said
> exactly what I just did.

Lyle gave you one way to achieve your desired goals, I gave you
another ... both use existing capabilities of the K3 and neither
represent the potential for improper operation of diversity mode.

> However, what disappoints me more is the fact that Joe, you didn't
> even bother to try it out like I asked you too... You're mind is
> just made up before you've seen what it actually does on some weak
> signals.

I did not need to "try it out" this time. I've used diversity and
I know full well from experience what happens when one MIXES audio
rather than keeping each channel separate. You, on the other hand,
are so hell bent on getting your own way that you will insist on a
decrease in performance of the rig for every other user rather
than use the dual receive function which is more appropriate in
your case.

> Now, this has become an argument.

You're right - this has become an argument. That's generally
what happens when one party in a debate lacks is incapable of
realizing when their position is factually incorrect and
logically flawed. You're not arguing with my experience, you
continue to argue with W8JI, K9YC, W7AY and many other very
experienced engineers and operators.

Hell, if you want to mix audio in diversity, just set "Speakers
= 1" and plug your headphones into the speaker jack.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 7/6/2010 12:23 PM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has
> already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned
> on and this discussion would be over. Some times it's just easier to
> let a feature go that others don't see the use for instead of
> policing how others use their radios. This is NOT a feature that
> would affect your operation if it were made available.
>
> I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said
> exactly what I just did. However, what disappoints me more is the
> fact that Joe, you didn't even bother to try it out like I asked you
> too... You're mind is just made up before you've seen what it
> actually does on some weak signals. There is more than just myself
> out here that don't have the perfect Diversity antenna set up. Many
> people in small QTH's have exactally what I have for a set up, and
> this feature would help them out greatly. You've already heard from
> others that have their ideas on how to use this feature too.
>
> Yes, you're right, If I wanted to operate in Dual receive mode and
> track my VFO's together then make sure antennas were set up the way
> that they need to be, adjust all the other features, make sure the
> Width is set together... Or, I could just turn on the Mixer!
>
> Now, this has become an argument. At this point we should STOP
> talking about this.. We're agreeing at the same time we're
> arguing....Enough said.
>
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Richard Ferch

Re: K3 Audio routing question

In reply to this post by g0afh

Craig,

What you suggest is perfectly possible, but it has nothing whatsoever to
do with diversity reception. It is simply dual receive. You can use dual
receive either on two separate frequencies, as you suggest (listening to
the DX on one receiver and the pileup on the other), or on the same
frequency (e.g. listening to two antennas non-coherently and summing or
mixing the audio signals as desired).

In addition to the mode you have suggested (SPLIT on, main RX listening to
the DX, subRX listening to the pileup where you will be transmitting), you
can also turn SPLIT off and listen to the DX on the subRX and the pileup
on the main RX. With SPLIT off, the main tuning knob controls your
transmitter's frequency. I find this method easier to use than the other
method, but that's a personal preference. Either way, you can use the
balance control and mixing options to control how much of each receiver
you hear in each ear.

In dual receive mode, the two VFOs run independently. If you choose, the
K3 allows you to link the two VFO frequencies together by holding the SUB
button to enter LINK mode. What this actually does is allow the main
tuning encoder to change the two VFO frequencies in parallel. It does not
phase-lock the two VFOs, which still run independently (non-coherently).
If they started out on the same frequency at the time you linked them,
they will continue to stay together in frequency as you turn the main
tuning knob, but the VFO B knob can also be used to control VFO B
separately from VFO A. To "detach" the main tuning knob encoder from VFO
B, hold SUB again to UNLINK the two VFOs.

Diversity mode is different; in effect, what it means is that both
receivers are using a single VFO. The VFO B knob can control the
transmitter in SPLIT when you are in diversity mode, but whether you are
in SPLIT or not, the VFO B knob has no effect on either receiver. You
cannot listen on two different frequencies at once in diversity mode.

73,
Rich VE3KI

AC0DS wrote:

When running, I like to use Split with the xmit freq on VFO B. I then tune
the calling stations, if required, using VFO A. I normally use a fairly
wide BW (300-500 Hz) to avoid much tuning on strong signals. I was hoping
to use the "diversity" mode for this so that I could monitor two antennas at
once, one in each ear. If copy became difficult or if the other antenna was
creating more interference than help, it would be useful to use the
"balance" control to focus my attention on the signal I was trying to copy.
I understand this is not true diversity, at least in the extreme. But it
does seem useful, at least to my simple-minded way of looking at things.

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123