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K3: Audio settings

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Bill-4

K3: Audio settings

I have been using my K3/P3 since new in early 2013. Initially, I had a
devil of a time getting the RX audio to sound pleasing. Understand -
that is pleasing to me. There was always a high percentage of background
white noise.

Eventually, after a lot of experimentation, I settled on various EQ,
AGC, ATT, RF Gain etc. All this was to make it comfortable for long-term
armchair copy on 40, 75, and 160 meters. I also bought a pair of
Behringer MS40 speakers to improve things. All told, I was relatively
pleased with the results - - - until...... I bought an Icom 7300.

The 7300 is quiet. Nearly zero background noise - signals just jump out.
During the daytime it is close to that of 2-meter FM. Understand that my
QTH has nearly zero noise.

Where am I going with this? Simple - I am looking for suggestions on
eliminating the K3's white noise problem. Please do not email, as I am
sure I am not the only K3 user similarly interested. Sharing would be great.

Thanks,

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3: Audio settings

Bill,

The AGC Threshold has a lot to do with it. Check out the "Noisy K3"
article on my website www.w3fpr.com. Set it to suit the noise at your
QTH, there is no 'one size to fit all'.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/3/2018 9:48 AM, Bill wrote:

> I have been using my K3/P3 since new in early 2013. Initially, I had a
> devil of a time getting the RX audio to sound pleasing. Understand -
> that is pleasing to me. There was always a high percentage of background
> white noise.
>
> Eventually, after a lot of experimentation, I settled on various EQ,
> AGC, ATT, RF Gain etc. All this was to make it comfortable for long-term
> armchair copy on 40, 75, and 160 meters. I also bought a pair of
> Behringer MS40 speakers to improve things. All told, I was relatively
> pleased with the results - - - until...... I bought an Icom 7300.
>
> The 7300 is quiet. Nearly zero background noise - signals just jump out.
> During the daytime it is close to that of 2-meter FM. Understand that my
> QTH has nearly zero noise.
>
> Where am I going with this? Simple - I am looking for suggestions on
> eliminating the K3's white noise problem. Please do not email, as I am
> sure I am not the only K3 user similarly interested. Sharing would be
> great.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Bill-4

I had assembled two K3 radios for friends that didn't believe they were
competent to do so. In doing this, I was able to use these radios for a
few weeks.   I noted some artifacts regarding the receive audio and
elected not to purchase one for my station at that time.

Then came along the K3S with its advertised improvements. Namely in
receive audio. I opted to purchase one and I am totally delighted that
I waited. The RX audio performance is outstanding in all respects.   I
know this is not the answer you wanted to read.   However, Don, W3FPR
has an excellent paper on his site that details adjustments regarding
the K3 and its "noisy audio". Without a doubt, a correctly configured
radio will offer outstanding performance.

My 55 year ham history comes from a long line of Tentec, Kenwood, ICOM,
and Yaesu radios.   Needless to say, I find the K3S is superior to
anything I've had access to use.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/3/2018 8:48 AM, Bill wrote:

> I have been using my K3/P3 since new in early 2013. Initially, I had a
> devil of a time getting the RX audio to sound pleasing. Understand -
> that is pleasing to me. There was always a high percentage of
> background white noise.
>
> Eventually, after a lot of experimentation, I settled on various EQ,
> AGC, ATT, RF Gain etc. All this was to make it comfortable for
> long-term armchair copy on 40, 75, and 160 meters. I also bought a
> pair of Behringer MS40 speakers to improve things. All told, I was
> relatively pleased with the results - - - until...... I bought an Icom
> 7300.
>
> The 7300 is quiet. Nearly zero background noise - signals just jump
> out. During the daytime it is close to that of 2-meter FM. Understand
> that my QTH has nearly zero noise.
>
> Where am I going with this? Simple - I am looking for suggestions on
> eliminating the K3's white noise problem. Please do not email, as I am
> sure I am not the only K3 user similarly interested. Sharing would be
> great.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
>
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Josh Fiden

Re: K3: Audio settings

I have two original K3. Wondering if I missed something. The "S" has improvements to receive audio? Or is this just referring to the new synthesizer?

Thanks & 73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX

> Then came along the K3S with its advertised improvements. Namely in receive audio.

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3: Audio settings

Josh,

Yes, the K3S has some improvement to the audio in that there is an extra
gain stage that distributes the audio gain a bit better. I do not
consider it worthwhile for my K3 - the DSP board would have to be
replaced. There was a change to the K3 DSP board much earlier that
added a low pass filter as well as lower frequency audio response to the
original K3 audio. For a time, there wa a DSP board swap program to
upgrade the DSP board, but that has now been retired, but you can still
purchase the low pass filter add-on. If you have the Rev D DSP board,
it is already installed.

The new synthesizer will get you the most "bang for the buck"
improvement in the K3 RF performance, and the new KXV3B adds the 20 dB
preamp for 17 meters and above. The KIO3B can add the USB interface
rather than the RS-232 as well as an internal soundcard.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/3/2018 10:56 AM, Josh Fiden wrote:
> I have two original K3. Wondering if I missed something. The "S" has improvements to receive audio? Or is this just referring to the new synthesizer?
>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Josh Fiden

Here is a link to the K3S as originally announced. Note that it has; "
Redesigned AF output circuitry for outstanding speaker audio" among
other added items.

http://www.elecraft.com/manual/k3s%20data%20sheet_Rev_A2%20.pdf

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/3/2018 9:56 AM, Josh Fiden wrote:

> I have two original K3. Wondering if I missed something. The "S" has improvements to receive audio? Or is this just referring to the new synthesizer?
>
> Thanks & 73,
> Josh W6XU
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>> On Sep 3, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX
>> Then came along the K3S with its advertised improvements. Namely in receive audio.
>

NK7Z

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Don,

I have some P3 displays of what happens when two stations upgrade to the
new Synthesizers at:

https://www.nk7z.net/

Just select the top blog entry. There are some P3 graphs there showing
just how much improvement the new synthesizers actually add. Two of us
upgraded, and we did it in stages, I managed to document most of the
changes in steps, showing the RX station, then the TX stations, etc. It
was all quite interesting, and a big improvement as the numbers show.

73s and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z/NNR0DC)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Technical Specialist

On 09/03/2018 08:40 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> The new synthesizer will get you the most "bang for the buck"
> improvement in the K3 RF performance

> 73,
> Don W3FPR
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Josh Fiden

Josh,
Theoretically, the answer is yes. From the FAQ blurb on the Elecraft site: "Redesigned speakeramplifier - Stereo speaker outputs now have lower total harmonic distortion(THD) for reduced listening fatigue".
Dick, K8ZTT
On Monday, September 3, 2018, 8:56:45 AM MDT, Josh Fiden <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have two original K3. Wondering if I missed something. The "S" has improvements to receive audio? Or is this just referring to the new synthesizer?

Thanks & 73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX

> Then came along the K3S with its advertised improvements. Namely in receive audio.

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Bill-4

Re: K3: Audio settings

In the real world, is that "theoretical" improvement noticeable? The
improvement I am looking for is significant - not small or incremental.
Perhaps it is more than the K3 can provide?

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3: Audio settings

Personally having used two different K3 radios and then my K3S, the
difference was enough for me to buy a new K3S. Small or
incremental........nah, very noticeable specially coming from someone
{me} who worked in professional audio and recording studio environment
most of my career. Of course you may have other objectives.   Operator
skill and correctly setting up the radio parameters is a major key to
ones overall success and satisfaction.   In fact, one can adjust the
various parameters where the radio sounds and performs poorly. That's
not the radio's fault.

  I'll say the overall performance enhancements and difference is indeed
a complication of improvements, not just solely the audio.

With a compilation of older and newer radios, a IC-756pro II, a
TS-590S, and an Orion at my disposal, they don't stand anywhere near the
performance and overall signal quality of the K3S.   As to whistles and
bells offered by the others.........toot toot and ding-a-ling. They
don't impress me.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/3/2018 1:46 PM, Bill wrote:

> In the real world, is that "theoretical" improvement noticeable? The
> improvement I am looking for is significant - not small or
> incremental. Perhaps it is more than the K3 can provide?
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>

Josh Fiden

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

The only thing I use the speaker for is monitoring digital modes where as long as I hear beeps, it's all good :)

My operating on CW & phone is exclusively headphones. So, if the improvement is exclusive to driving low impedance loads at higher power, doesn't matter.

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Here is a link to the K3S as originally announced. Note that it has; " Redesigned AF output circuitry for outstanding speaker audio" among other added items.
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/manual/k3s%20data%20sheet_Rev_A2%20.pdf
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>> On 9/3/2018 9:56 AM, Josh Fiden wrote:
>> I have two original K3. Wondering if I missed something. The "S" has improvements to receive audio? Or is this just referring to the new synthesizer?
>>
>> Thanks & 73,
>> Josh W6XU
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device
>>
>>> On Sep 3, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX
>>> Then came along the K3S with its advertised improvements. Namely in receive audio.
>>
>
>

Josh Fiden

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I have the new synth boards, since that was clearly worthwhile. Already have outboard preamp & don't care about USB since at this point seems like I've accumulated a herd of USB/RS232 converters that work fine, plus Tascam audio interface.

I'll have to check DSP board rev. Was there a specific serial number for that changeover?

Thanks for the info!

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 8:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Josh,
>
> Yes, the K3S has some improvement to the audio in that there is an extra gain stage that distributes the audio gain a bit better. I do not consider it worthwhile for my K3 - the DSP board would have to be replaced. There was a change to the K3 DSP board much earlier that added a low pass filter as well as lower frequency audio response to the original K3 audio. For a time, there wa a DSP board swap program to upgrade the DSP board, but that has now been retired, but you can still purchase the low pass filter add-on. If you have the Rev D DSP board, it is already installed.
>
> The new synthesizer will get you the most "bang for the buck" improvement in the K3 RF performance, and the new KXV3B adds the 20 dB preamp for 17 meters and above. The KIO3B can add the USB interface rather than the RS-232 as well as an internal soundcard.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>>

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Bill-4

Feed the line-out into a P-P 6V6 amp (e.g., Eico HF-20, Heath A-9x, an old 6V6 PA amp, etc.) and into a pair (or one if your’e not using both output channels) of bass reflex speakers or AR-somethings.

I did that with a string of pre-K3 “modern” radios (and quite a few vintage radios with puny audio output), including the K3 for a while, before a major downsizing of stuff. Worked and played great. Now I just use a pair of E’craft SP-3s on my K3, which work fine .. and are a lot easier to move around :-) I have no complaints about K3 audio.

Since the days of big 6V6 audio in vintage gear (think SX-28, NC-183D, etc), radio vendors have mostly paid attention to everything but audio stage quality. Maybe the new output stage in the K3S makes a big difference .. not owning one, (unfortunately, E’craft didn't make the new main board available for upgrade) I couldn’t say. But if you pick the audio up at line-out and amplify it with a decent amp and good speakers, you won’t be disappointed with the result.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091 KX3 #8342

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In the real world, is that "theoretical" improvement noticeable? The improvement I am looking for is significant - not small or incremental. Perhaps it is more than the K3 can provide?
>

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Josh Fiden

Don't shortchange yourself by looking at only 1 or 2 parameters.

Here's the list. Some items can be upgraded in a K3 to make it almost
to the level of a K3S.

** Ultra low-noise synthesizer for exceptional strong-signal receive
performance and transmit signal purity (KSYN3A)

** USB port–integrates remote control and line-level audio, eliminating
the need for a PC sound card and audio cables

** Second preamp for 12-6 m weak signal work (on included KXV3B module)

** Multiple attenuators, providing steps of -5/-10/-15 dB

** Enhanced look and feel, with new LCD bezel, soft-touch VFO knob

** Lower-Loss ATU option with true bypass relay (KAT3A)

** Redesigned AF output circuitry for outstanding speaker audio

** Accurate, high-speed CW transmit even in SPLIT mode

** Coverage of the 630-meter band (~470 kHz), and lower1

Yes, I'm convinced there is a difference.

73
Bob, K4TAX

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Josh Fiden

Re: K3: Audio settings

Embedded comments. I'm a contester & weak signal VHF exclusively. YMMV

Sent from my mobile device

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Don't shortchange yourself by looking at only 1 or 2 parameters.
>
> Here's the list. Some items can be upgraded in a K3 to make it almost to the level of a K3S.
>
>
> ** Ultra low-noise synthesizer for exceptional strong-signal receive performance and transmit signal purity (KSYN3A)
Agree, have the upgrade.
>
> ** USB port–integrates remote control and line-level audio, eliminating the need for a PC sound card and audio cables
Don't care, no performance improvement.
>
> ** Second preamp for 12-6 m weak signal work (on included KXV3B module)
Have outboard preamp. No performance improvement from what I have, yes? If I wanted to improve on this I'd get a better outboard preamp or use something mast mounted for 6m. However, already running fairly short 1-1/4 Heliax so minimal improvement doesn't justify the complexity.
>
> ** Multiple attenuators, providing steps of -5/-10/-15 dB
You got me here. Stock single setting attenuator seems fine, but maybe I'd love having 3 steps on HF?
>
> ** Enhanced look and feel, with new LCD bezel, soft-touch VFO knob
Function over form for me! Decidedly don't care!!
>
> ** Lower-Loss ATU option with true bypass relay (KAT3A)
The only time I've used internal ATU is at Field Day. Running LP I use KAT500 since it has my antennas memorized. Plus another outboard tuner for legal limit. Am I missing anything?
>
> ** Redesigned AF output circuitry for outstanding speaker audio
As noted only use the speaker for beeps (JT, RTTY, ..).
>
> ** Accurate, high-speed CW transmit even in SPLIT mode
I thought this came with the new synthesizer? Am I missing something here? High speed CW for me is low 30s ;)
>
> ** Coverage of the 630-meter band (~470 kHz), and lower1
I'm more a VHF guy than VLF, hi. Isn't this available with new synth? Are there any 630m contests?

73
Josh

>
>

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3: Audio settings

My uses are pretty similar to Josh's. As soon as they were available,I
added the new synth boards, and the KXVB board to get the better preamp
to my early (2008) K3s . Like Josh, I have several good USB audio
interfaces, including a Tascam US100 and Numark Stereo I/O.

73, Jim K9YC

On 9/3/2018 1:36 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:

> Embedded comments. I'm a contester & weak signal VHF exclusively. YMMV
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>> On Sep 3, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Don't shortchange yourself by looking at only 1 or 2 parameters.
>>
>> Here's the list. Some items can be upgraded in a K3 to make it almost to the level of a K3S.
>>
>>
>> ** Ultra low-noise synthesizer for exceptional strong-signal receive performance and transmit signal purity (KSYN3A)
> Agree, have the upgrade.
>> ** USB port–integrates remote control and line-level audio, eliminating the need for a PC sound card and audio cables
> Don't care, no performance improvement.
>> ** Second preamp for 12-6 m weak signal work (on included KXV3B module)
> Have outboard preamp. No performance improvement from what I have, yes? If I wanted to improve on this I'd get a better outboard preamp or use something mast mounted for 6m. However, already running fairly short 1-1/4 Heliax so minimal improvement doesn't justify the complexity.
>> ** Multiple attenuators, providing steps of -5/-10/-15 dB
> You got me here. Stock single setting attenuator seems fine, but maybe I'd love having 3 steps on HF?
>> ** Enhanced look and feel, with new LCD bezel, soft-touch VFO knob
> Function over form for me! Decidedly don't care!!
>> ** Lower-Loss ATU option with true bypass relay (KAT3A)
> The only time I've used internal ATU is at Field Day. Running LP I use KAT500 since it has my antennas memorized. Plus another outboard tuner for legal limit. Am I missing anything?
>> ** Redesigned AF output circuitry for outstanding speaker audio
> As noted only use the speaker for beeps (JT, RTTY, ..).
>> ** Accurate, high-speed CW transmit even in SPLIT mode
> I thought this came with the new synthesizer? Am I missing something here? High speed CW for me is low 30s ;)
>> ** Coverage of the 630-meter band (~470 kHz), and lower1
> I'm more a VHF guy than VLF, hi. Isn't this available with new synth? Are there any 630m contests?
>
> 73
> Josh
>
>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Bill-4

Bill,

Audio - If you are judging from the internal speaker, all I can say is
"don't do that", the audio is not representative of what the K3 can do.
Either use headphones or good quality external speakers for a good audio
sound from the K3.

The K3 to K3S options will not improve the K3 audio. The new synths
will improve the RX and TX phase noise (and usable sensitivity)
considerably, and the KXV3B will improve the preamp selection on the
higher bands. The KIO3B is more of an operating convenience IMHO by
virtue of its internal USB to USB converter and the internal soundcard.
Worthy of adding if you do not have RS-232 ports on your computer.

If your operation is mainly casual, you will not notice the difference,
but if you are into contesting and DXing, the ability to "saddle up" to
a strong station close to your operating frequency will be quite noticeable.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/3/2018 2:46 PM, Bill wrote:
> In the real world, is that "theoretical" improvement noticeable? The
> improvement I am looking for is significant - not small or incremental.
> Perhaps it is more than the K3 can provide?
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Bill-4

Re: K3: Audio settings

Don, you make me laugh. Internal speakers are a joke - never heard one,
since the 50s when I got started in radio, worth listening to. Why they
don't just leave it at a SPKR jack and a PHONES jack is beyond me.

Bill W2BLC - K-line

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3: Audio settings

Bill,

Yes, I agree. We had a phone station at Field Day where the operator
used his own rig with an internal speaker (I think it was an Icom), and
the sound was so grating to my ears that I thought about cutting his
coax! I don't know how the operator deciphered the calls and reports.
That is a "to be fixed" situation for next year's Field Day.

I was at the CW station where we used headphones with the internal
speaker turned up only enough to let others nearby hear what was going
on, and it sounded OK, but not great. I should have brought my external
speakers for the K3 CW station.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/4/2018 9:50 AM, Bill wrote:

> Don, you make me laugh. Internal speakers are a joke - never heard one,
> since the 50s when I got started in radio, worth listening to. Why they
> don't just leave it at a SPKR jack and a PHONES jack is beyond me.
>
> Bill W2BLC - K-line
>
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k6dgw

Re: K3: Audio settings

In reply to this post by Bill-4

A number of years ago, I inherited an SX-28 and the big bass reflex
speaker with the cut-out "h" in the center. It gave new meaning to the
term "armchair copy."

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 9/4/2018 6:50 AM, Bill wrote:
> Don, you make me laugh. Internal speakers are a joke - never heard
> one, since the 50s when I got started in radio, worth listening to.
> Why they don't just leave it at a SPKR jack and a PHONES jack is
> beyond me.
>
> Bill W2BLC - K-line
>

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