K3 Auto Notch distortion
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After a firmware update quite a while ago (I don't remember which one but it was more than a year ago) I have had bad distortion using the Auto Notch on SSB. I have heard others say the same - is there anything that can be done about this? Mine is bad enough to make the Auto Notch unusable and I use the manual notch instead. I'm primarily a CW op but my SSB use is for local nets on 75 meters and with a group every night on 160 phone and those are bands that Auto Notch would be very handy to have!
73 Bill NZ0T |
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I also find in SSB that this is the case, but it is also the case on my
other mfg radios that I use mobile. So maybe its the nature of the math that is used to remove it from the signal. Don ~73 Don KD8NNU On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:16 AM, NZ0T wrote: > After a firmware update quite a while ago (I don't remember which one > but it > was more than a year ago) I have had bad distortion using the Auto > Notch on > SSB. I have heard others say the same - is there anything that can be > done > about this? Mine is bad enough to make the Auto Notch unusable and I > use > the manual notch instead. I'm primarily a CW op but my SSB use is for > local > nets on 75 meters and with a group every night on 160 phone and those > are > bands that Auto Notch would be very handy to have! > > 73 Bill NZ0T > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Auto-Notch-distortion-tp7227087p7227087.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by NZ0T
* On 2012 26 Jan 08:18 -0600, NZ0T wrote:
> After a firmware update quite a while ago (I don't remember which one but it > was more than a year ago) I have had bad distortion using the Auto Notch on > SSB. I have heard others say the same - is there anything that can be done > about this? Mine is bad enough to make the Auto Notch unusable and I use > the manual notch instead. I'm primarily a CW op but my SSB use is for local > nets on 75 meters and with a group every night on 160 phone and those are > bands that Auto Notch would be very handy to have! While watching the effect of the autonotch on USB a CW signal in the passband on 20m with Fldigi, I see an interesting set of audio frequency bands that appear to be notches on either side of the desired notched signal but not on the signal itself. Meanwhile the manual notch is a nice ~200 Hz wide band of notched audio. First, a screenshot with no notch enabled: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/N0NB/Ham%20radio/k3-no-notch.png Second, the auto-notch: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/N0NB/Ham%20radio/k3-auto-notch.png Finally, the manual notch: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/N0NB/Ham%20radio/k3-manual-notch.png It must be noted that the sensitivity of the waterfall is affected by the values in the lower left corner of each image. The -16 sets the upper signal level in dB and the 60 sets the range of the display. Adjusting the upper signal level higher (more positive) makes the manual notch appear wider and adjusting it lower (more negative) makes it appear to be more narrow. These controls are analogous to the P3's Ref Level and Scale settings. 73, de Nate N0NB >> -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 1/26/2012 11:08 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> I have had bad distortion using the Auto Notch onSSB. ANY filter, whether it uses analog components or DSP (which is a simulation of analog components) has a phase response associated with the amplitude response, and the greater the amplitude response changes, the greater will be the phase response changes. These changes in amplitude and phase are simply another form of DISTORTION, and the greater the distortion, the more likely we are to HEAR it. For example, when the crystal filters in the K2 are aligned for narrow SSB bandwidth, the amplitude response is QUITE bumpy, and the resulting phase distortion makes it hard to listen to. Now, it is POSSIBLE to detect a single frequency and reproduce it, then carefully add it precisely equal in amplitude and 180 degrees out of phase with the interfering signal without adding distortion. I don't know what method(s) Elecraft is using. Another point. NO audio stage is ideal -- there is SOME distortion, which consists of harmonics and even intermod products -- and a strong heterodyne can produce fairly strong harmonics. If the fundamental is there, it MASKS the harmonics (within our ear/brain) so that we don't hear them, but if the fundamental is removed, they can be quite audible. Audio engineers have learned to recognize various kinds of distortion products by listening to the distortion output of a distortion analyzer, which is essentially a notch filter. Bottom line -- ALL notch filters have audible artifacts. I use the notch only when I need it, and leave it off when I don't. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by NZ0T
Nate, thanks for confirming the RX Notch distortion, and also for the input on the TX audio report on MCU 4.47.
I have just gone back to 4.39 and made a contact with a friend, and the problem I was having is gone now. The audio is normal. Yesterday, he said it was not so great. AS far as the Notch, I will just use the manual notch. Looking at your screen shot of what the auto notch is doing, I am scratching my head trying to figure out what is happening. The manual notch looked great. I am used to having a auto notch and manual notch which is inside the AGC loop, and it worked very well compared to what I am experiencing now with the K3. Toby W4CAK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Nate Bargmann
I've noticed and observed this exact same thing while using MixW or DM780.
The auto notch doesn't kill the desired signal like it should - it appears that it's "missing" on either side of the signal. The manual notch works as it should. On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Nate Bargmann <[hidden email]> wrote: > > While watching the effect of the autonotch on USB a CW signal in > the passband on 20m with Fldigi, I see an interesting set of audio > frequency bands that appear to be notches on either side of the desired > notched signal but not on the signal itself. Meanwhile the manual notch > is a nice ~200 Hz wide band of notched audio. > > First, a screenshot with no notch enabled: > > http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/N0NB/Ham%20radio/k3-no-notch.png > > Second, the auto-notch: > > http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/N0NB/Ham%20radio/k3-auto-notch.png > > Finally, the manual notch: > > > http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/N0NB/Ham%20radio/k3-manual-notch.png > ------------------------------------------- Owner, worldwidedx.com AE6LX, Amateur Radio NNN0ITA, Navy MARS NNN0GAF FOUR, Southern CA Training Director, Navy MARS ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Tim Tucker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've noticed and observed this exact same thing while using MixW or DM780. > The auto notch doesn't kill the desired signal like it should - it appears > that it's "missing" on either side of the signal.... ========== Yep, it's really clear when you watch it on a waterfall. I see exactly the same thing Nate and Tim are seeing. It takes only a minute to test this and see the very clear result. It appears that the auto-notch is correctly finding the offending carrier, because there are equally-spaced attenuations on either side. But for whatever reason, it's not notching the same way the manual notch is doing. This is probably something that will get addressed in firmware in due course. Tony KT0NY ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I can't seem to find this problem with 4.42. The Auto-notch seems to work
well. Sometimes on 40M SSB I leave it on to get rid of the broadcast carriers. No complaints. 73, N2TK, Tony -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony Estep Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:49 PM To: Tim Tucker Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Auto Notch distortion On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Tim Tucker <[hidden email]> wrote: > I've noticed and observed this exact same thing while using MixW or DM780. > The auto notch doesn't kill the desired signal like it should - it > appears that it's "missing" on either side of the signal.... ========== Yep, it's really clear when you watch it on a waterfall. I see exactly the same thing Nate and Tim are seeing. It takes only a minute to test this and see the very clear result. It appears that the auto-notch is correctly finding the offending carrier, because there are equally-spaced attenuations on either side. But for whatever reason, it's not notching the same way the manual notch is doing. This is probably something that will get addressed in firmware in due course. Tony KT0NY ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I loaded 4.47 and note no difference. I am not using any external software,
just external stereo speakers. 73, Bill K9YEQ -----Original Message----- I can't seem to find this problem with 4.42. The Auto-notch seems to work well. Sometimes on 40M SSB I leave it on to get rid of the broadcast carriers. No complaints. 73, N2TK, Tony -----Original Message----- On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Tim Tucker <[hidden email]> wrote: > I've noticed and observed this exact same thing while using MixW or DM780. > The auto notch doesn't kill the desired signal like it should - it > appears that it's "missing" on either side of the signal.... ========== Yep, it's really clear when you watch it on a waterfall. I see exactly the same thing Nate and Tim are seeing. It takes only a minute to test this and see the very clear result. It appears that the auto-notch is correctly finding the offending carrier, because there are equally-spaced attenuations on either side. But for whatever reason, it's not notching the same way the manual notch is doing. This is probably something that will get addressed in firmware in due course. Tony KT0NY ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by KD8NNU
On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:59 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > I also find in SSB that this is the case, but it is also the case on my > other mfg radios that I use mobile. > > So maybe its the nature of the math that is used to remove it from the > signal. I have the K2/100 with the KDSP2. In SSB, I leave the auto-notch on all the time. I've never noticed any distortion. However, on the K3/100, the auto-notch appears to produce a barely noticeable distortion. Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email] Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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It is more than barely noticeable or you would not have mentioned it! I
too have noticed it and it really bugs me - very unlike the fine auto-notch filters found on the Kenwood, Icom, and Yaesu rigs. The nay sayers in this group will quickly tell you they don't hear it or give excuses for its existence. Don't buy into it - the distortion does exist and it is very annoying. To me, there is no excuse for the notch filter distortion to exist on the expensive K3 - when it does not exist on $1000 rigs. As a work around, I have found the following settings go a long way to eliminate the distortion. Be advised - these settings are for armchair copy on 75, 40, and 160 meters. I don't know if they would do well for contesting or DXing - of which I do neither. **K3 settings (Config Menu): AGC DLY - NORM AGC HLD - 0 AGC PLS - NORM AGC SLP - 4 AGC THR - 12 AGC F - 120 AGC S - 20 Shift - 1.4 Width - 2.7 RF Gain - 90 ATT - ON RX EQ 1 -2 2 0 3 +9 4 +12 5 +11 6 +14 7 -16 8 -16 Be sure to read the "Noisy K3" section on http://www.w3fpr.com/ - excellent information! The disclaimer: Your mileage for the above settings may vary - depending upon speaker selection, personal preferences, and your hearing acuity. Note: I made all of my settings by hand, using the K3 menus. I did NOT use K3 EZ as that program will sometimes upset the AGC settings. ** ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 Auto Notch distortion
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Several months ago I did a commentary about autonotch noisy effect and
compare it with autonotch of cheapy radios. Responses I got was elecraft is working on solution, but time have passed and all those months autonotch is practically unusable. I'm sure that problem is only a aspect of software optimization Edu (yy4gmj) On Mar 12, 2013 6:02 AM, "Bill Clarke" <[hidden email]> wrote: > It is more than barely noticeable or you would not have mentioned it! I > too have noticed it and it really bugs me - very unlike the fine auto-notch > filters found on the Kenwood, Icom, and Yaesu rigs. The nay sayers in this > group will quickly tell you they don't hear it or give excuses for its > existence. Don't buy into it - the distortion does exist and it is very > annoying. To me, there is no excuse for the notch filter distortion to > exist on the expensive K3 - when it does not exist on $1000 rigs. > > As a work around, I have found the following settings go a long way to > eliminate the distortion. Be advised - these settings are for armchair copy > on 75, 40, and 160 meters. I don't know if they would do well for > contesting or DXing - of which I do neither. > > **K3 settings (Config Menu): > AGC DLY - NORM > AGC HLD - 0 > AGC PLS - NORM > AGC SLP - 4 > AGC THR - 12 > AGC F - 120 > AGC S - 20 > Shift - 1.4 > Width - 2.7 > RF Gain - 90 > ATT - ON > RX EQ 1 -2 > 2 0 > 3 +9 > 4 +12 > 5 +11 > 6 +14 > 7 -16 > 8 -16 > > Be sure to read the "Noisy K3" section on http://www.w3fpr.com/ - > excellent information! > > The disclaimer: Your mileage for the above settings may vary - depending > upon speaker selection, personal preferences, and your hearing acuity. > > Note: I made all of my settings by hand, using the K3 menus. I did NOT > use K3 EZ as that program will sometimes upset the AGC settings. > > > ** > ______________________________**______________________________**__ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm<http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> > Post: mailto:[hidden email].**net <[hidden email]> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill Clarke
Well truth be told I have been using my first K3/# 5299 since July of last
it was a basic model I bought used, then a fully loaded one K3/# 6730 I bought the last 1/4 of 12. I have not really noticed this all that much it does what I want it to remove carriers most of all. But what do I know I only listen to the 8-12 hrs a day in my spare time the rest I listen to my KX3, K2, IC-9100 or one of my old FT-101 lines of radios now 4 of those 8>). But since I sold my FTDX-5000MP that I owned for 2 years 90+% of my time has been spent using my K3's although sometimes it is hard to figure which Elecraft radio I want to use that day. Fred/N0AZZ -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Clarke Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:32 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Auto Notch distortion It is more than barely noticeable or you would not have mentioned it! I too have noticed it and it really bugs me - very unlike the fine auto-notch filters found on the Kenwood, Icom, and Yaesu rigs. The nay sayers in this group will quickly tell you they don't hear it or give excuses for its existence. Don't buy into it - the distortion does exist and it is very annoying. To me, there is no excuse for the notch filter distortion to exist on the expensive K3 - when it does not exist on $1000 rigs. As a work around, I have found the following settings go a long way to eliminate the distortion. Be advised - these settings are for armchair copy on 75, 40, and 160 meters. I don't know if they would do well for contesting or DXing - of which I do neither. **K3 settings (Config Menu): AGC DLY - NORM AGC HLD - 0 AGC PLS - NORM AGC SLP - 4 AGC THR - 12 AGC F - 120 AGC S - 20 Shift - 1.4 Width - 2.7 RF Gain - 90 ATT - ON RX EQ 1 -2 2 0 3 +9 4 +12 5 +11 6 +14 7 -16 8 -16 Be sure to read the "Noisy K3" section on http://www.w3fpr.com/ - excellent information! The disclaimer: Your mileage for the above settings may vary - depending upon speaker selection, personal preferences, and your hearing acuity. Note: I made all of my settings by hand, using the K3 menus. I did NOT use K3 EZ as that program will sometimes upset the AGC settings. ** ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6165 - Release Date: 03/11/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6165 - Release Date: 03/11/13 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Eduardo González
I love my K3. It's the best rig I've ever used, let alone owned. But the auto notch is a weak point. Yes, it does find and eliminate carriers but it introduces significant distortion. The manual notch is superb and does not introduce any distortion so that's what I use. What is perplexing to me is that the Icom IC-7200 I recently acquired as a back up rig has an auto notch that works very well while introducing little to no distortion. The 7200 is a nice entry level rig but no where near a match for the K3 except for the auto notch. I'll just keep hoping for an auto notch fix.
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