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[K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

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Phil Hystad-3

[K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

A while back I raised the question of whether others had the same symptoms I had been hearing of the CW sidetone pitch of a received signal all of a sudden changing by so-many Hz (maybe up to 50 Hz but just guessing). It appears to happen when there is a slight pause in the senders signal and it almost sounds like some other station, a few Hz away has jumped into the party but that is not the case -- only a single station sending.

Several responses commented that they had heard the same thing whereas some others said they never heard this problem.

And, about two weeks ago or so someone sent me a message or maybe posted it to the Elecraft reflector asking if I still had the problem after installing the latest firmware (or, beta?). I have lost that message and I would like to know if this problem was specifically addressed by a firmware update. I am up to date on firmware with the exception of the latest beta that I have now installed yet. However, I still have this problem (it seems to happen with stronger signals, maybe S8 or better, and it seems to only happen in the pause between words for example and never to my knowledge in a string of characters of a word).

73, phil, K7PEH

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Guy, K2AV

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

Phil, what is the pitch you are using when this happens? Is it a
multiple of 50 Hz? Or one of the in-betweens?

73, Guy

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A while back I raised the question of whether others had the same symptoms I had been hearing of the CW sidetone pitch of a received signal all of a sudden changing by so-many Hz (maybe up to 50 Hz but just guessing). It appears to happen when there is a slight pause in the senders signal and it almost sounds like some other station, a few Hz away has jumped into the party but that is not the case -- only a single station sending.
>
> Several responses commented that they had heard the same thing whereas some others said they never heard this problem.
>
> And, about two weeks ago or so someone sent me a message or maybe posted it to the Elecraft reflector asking if I still had the problem after installing the latest firmware (or, beta?). I have lost that message and I would like to know if this problem was specifically addressed by a firmware update. I am up to date on firmware with the exception of the latest beta that I have now installed yet. However, I still have this problem (it seems to happen with stronger signals, maybe S8 or better, and it seems to only happen in the pause between words for example and never to my knowledge in a string of characters of a word).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

I have no idea what the pitch is -- I will have to look the next time.

On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> Phil, what is the pitch you are using when this happens? Is it a
> multiple of 50 Hz? Or one of the in-betweens?
>
> 73, Guy
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> A while back I raised the question of whether others had the same symptoms I had been hearing of the CW sidetone pitch of a received signal all of a sudden changing by so-many Hz (maybe up to 50 Hz but just guessing). It appears to happen when there is a slight pause in the senders signal and it almost sounds like some other station, a few Hz away has jumped into the party but that is not the case -- only a single station sending.
>>
>> Several responses commented that they had heard the same thing whereas some others said they never heard this problem.
>>
>> And, about two weeks ago or so someone sent me a message or maybe posted it to the Elecraft reflector asking if I still had the problem after installing the latest firmware (or, beta?). I have lost that message and I would like to know if this problem was specifically addressed by a firmware update. I am up to date on firmware with the exception of the latest beta that I have now installed yet. However, I still have this problem (it seems to happen with stronger signals, maybe S8 or better, and it seems to only happen in the pause between words for example and never to my knowledge in a string of characters of a word).
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Guy, K2AV

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

It is my recollection that Wayne is doing something extra to have all
the non-50 Hz things work on CW, e.g. if this is CW then add this
number kind of thing. Since some (a lot?) of people will use a 50 Hz
multiple, this would explain why some see and some don't. Also is a
pointer to where to look in the code.

73, Guy.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have no idea what the pitch is -- I will have to look the next time.
>
> On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
>> Phil, what is the pitch you are using when this happens? Is it a
>> multiple of 50 Hz? Or one of the in-betweens?
>>
>> 73, Guy
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> A while back I raised the question of whether others had the same symptoms I had been hearing of the CW sidetone pitch of a received signal all of a sudden changing by so-many Hz (maybe up to 50 Hz but just guessing). It appears to happen when there is a slight pause in the senders signal and it almost sounds like some other station, a few Hz away has jumped into the party but that is not the case -- only a single station sending.
>>>
>>> Several responses commented that they had heard the same thing whereas some others said they never heard this problem.
>>>
>>> And, about two weeks ago or so someone sent me a message or maybe posted it to the Elecraft reflector asking if I still had the problem after installing the latest firmware (or, beta?). I have lost that message and I would like to know if this problem was specifically addressed by a firmware update. I am up to date on firmware with the exception of the latest beta that I have now installed yet. However, I still have this problem (it seems to happen with stronger signals, maybe S8 or better, and it seems to only happen in the pause between words for example and never to my knowledge in a string of characters of a word).
>>>
>>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>
>

Phil Hystad-3

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

Guy,

Thanks for the comments. Tonight I will experiment a little by changing the tone Hz value and see what happens. It may take a few days to determine if anything is changed as I do not hear this problem all the time.

peh

On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> It is my recollection that Wayne is doing something extra to have all
> the non-50 Hz things work on CW, e.g. if this is CW then add this
> number kind of thing. Since some (a lot?) of people will use a 50 Hz
> multiple, this would explain why some see and some don't. Also is a
> pointer to where to look in the code.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have no idea what the pitch is -- I will have to look the next time.
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>
>>> Phil, what is the pitch you are using when this happens? Is it a
>>> multiple of 50 Hz? Or one of the in-betweens?
>>>
>>> 73, Guy
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> A while back I raised the question of whether others had the same symptoms I had been hearing of the CW sidetone pitch of a received signal all of a sudden changing by so-many Hz (maybe up to 50 Hz but just guessing). It appears to happen when there is a slight pause in the senders signal and it almost sounds like some other station, a few Hz away has jumped into the party but that is not the case -- only a single station sending.
>>>>
>>>> Several responses commented that they had heard the same thing whereas some others said they never heard this problem.
>>>>
>>>> And, about two weeks ago or so someone sent me a message or maybe posted it to the Elecraft reflector asking if I still had the problem after installing the latest firmware (or, beta?). I have lost that message and I would like to know if this problem was specifically addressed by a firmware update. I am up to date on firmware with the exception of the latest beta that I have now installed yet. However, I still have this problem (it seems to happen with stronger signals, maybe S8 or better, and it seems to only happen in the pause between words for example and never to my knowledge in a string of characters of a word).
>>>>
>>>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>
>>

N5GE

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:20:13 -0700, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Phil,

I'm confused.

You say that your side tone pitch is changing, but from your statement
below it sounds to me as though you are talking about the received
signal from the station you are working. If that is true, then the
problem would not be with the K3 side tone, but with the stability of
the transmitter at the other end. When this occurs after "a slight
pause in the senders signal", then it would mean that the sender's
transmitted frequency has changed during the pause. Many older tube
type rigs exhibit this behavior for many reasons. You will hear this
sort of behavior from many of the Cuban stations on the air, because
they have no access to modern radio equipment (unless they are a "good
Party Member").

TOM, N5GE BT 73 ES GUD LUK
AR DE N5GE SK

http://www.n5ge.com

>A while back I raised the question of whether others had the same symptoms I had been hearing of the CW sidetone pitch of a received signal all of a sudden changing by so-many Hz (maybe up to 50 Hz but just guessing). It appears to happen when there is a slight pause in the senders signal and it almost sounds like some other station, a few Hz away has jumped into the party but that is not the case -- only a single station sending.
[snip]

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Bill W4ZV

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

Radio Amateur N5GE wrote

You say that your side tone pitch is changing, but from your statement
below it sounds to me as though you are talking about the received
signal from the station you are working. If that is true, then the
problem would not be with the K3 side tone, but with the stability of
the transmitter at the other end.

I believe Phil is referring to the pitch of received signals over ~S9. Here's his original post and thread from over a month ago:

http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Subtle-Change-in-CW-monitor-tone-td4717926.html#a4721510

The pitch change is very subtle (<1 Hz change) and seems to occur mainly on strong received signals. Rather than being a transmit artifact of the external signal, it seems to be something inside the K3...noticeable only if you can discern very slight frequency changes. It's not annoying to me but more of a curiosity as to what may be causing it.

73, Bill

73, Bill

Rick Prather-2

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

Wow <1Hz change?

You guys violinists for the SF Symphony?

I'm impressed!

Rick
K6LE

On 4/29/2010, at 8:40 , Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
> The pitch change is very subtle (<1 Hz change)
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

More likely the low level distortion created in the analog audio path
typically occurring with the stronger signals. That distortion is therefore
multiples of the fundamental and the human hearing will allow the higher
frequency components to be dominate, often described as masking effect thus
perceived to be louder. It is the combination of F + Fx2 + Fx3 and etc.
This is usually the result of the dither component of digitally processed
signals. A 2nd point with stronger signals the background noise, always
higher in frequency content, will be suppressed thus the timbre of the
signal will change as the reference point of hearing changes.

A very common psychoacoustic condition with two legged folks referred to as
human.

73
Bob, K4TAX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Prather" <[hidden email]>
To: "Bill W4ZV" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

> Wow <1Hz change?
>
> You guys violinists for the SF Symphony?
>
> I'm impressed!
>
> Rick
> K6LE
>
> On 4/29/2010, at 8:40 , Bill W4ZV wrote:
>>
>> The pitch change is very subtle (<1 Hz change)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill W4ZV

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

In reply to this post by Rick Prather-2

Rick Prather-2 wrote

Wow <1Hz change?

You guys violinists for the SF Symphony?

I'm impressed!

It's a gift from God and you could have it too! Click "Adaptive Pitch" to the right here:

http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/

"This adaptive pitch test will play a series of two short tones and ask you if the second tone is higher or lower than the first tone. This test measures your pitch perception abilities by adapting to your responses: The better you are, the closer and closer the stimuli will become. As you advance in the test, it may sound as if the two tones are identical. This is never the case: they will always be a different pitch, even if that difference is imperceptible."

I forget the exact histogram breakpoints but I believe ~20% of folks can resolve <1 Hz. If you take the test, you'll see the histogram and where you fall on it.

Have fun!

73, Bill

alsopb

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

Rick Prather-2 wrote:

>>Wow <1Hz change?
>>
>>You guys violinists for the SF Symphony?
>>
>>I'm impressed!
>>
>>
>>
Yeah that's the good news. The bad news is that they can only hear from
500- 600 Hz.

It would seem that the lower the frequency the better one should be able
to resolve pitch differences.
Wonder if that is so.

73 de Brian/K3KO
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Rick Johnson-2

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Haa.... I guess .1875 isn't too bad for a 72 year old goat....And I can also hear the occasional pitch change in sidetone...about 2 hz I guestimate.It does not bother me tho.

Rick W3BI~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:44:16 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem
>
>
>
> Rick Prather-2 wrote:
> >
> > Wow <1Hz change?
> >
> > You guys violinists for the SF Symphony?
> >
> > I'm impressed!
> >
>
> It's a gift from God and you could have it too! Click "Adaptive Pitch" to
> the right here:
>
> http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
>
> "This adaptive pitch test will play a series of two short tones and ask you
> if the second tone is higher or lower than the first tone. This test
> measures your pitch perception abilities by adapting to your responses: The
> better you are, the closer and closer the stimuli will become. As you
> advance in the test, it may sound as if the two tones are identical. This is
> never the case: they will always be a different pitch, even if that
> difference is imperceptible."
>
> I forget the exact histogram breakpoints but I believe ~20% of folks can
> resolve <1 Hz. If you take the test, you'll see the histogram and where you
> fall on it.
>
> Have fun!
>
> 73, Bill
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-CW-Sidetone-Pitch-Change-Problem-tp4975385p4981305.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Rick Prather-2

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

That's very interesting.

Thanks,

Rick
K6LE

On 4/29/2010, at 10:44 , Bill W4ZV wrote:

>
>
> Rick Prather-2 wrote:
>>
>> Wow <1Hz change?
>>
>> You guys violinists for the SF Symphony?
>>
>> I'm impressed!
>>
>
> It's a gift from God and you could have it too! Click "Adaptive Pitch" to
> the right here:
>
> http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
>
> "This adaptive pitch test will play a series of two short tones and ask you
> if the second tone is higher or lower than the first tone. This test
> measures your pitch perception abilities by adapting to your responses: The
> better you are, the closer and closer the stimuli will become. As you
> advance in the test, it may sound as if the two tones are identical. This is
> never the case: they will always be a different pitch, even if that
> difference is imperceptible."
>
> I forget the exact histogram breakpoints but I believe ~20% of folks can
> resolve <1 Hz. If you take the test, you'll see the histogram and where you
> fall on it.
>
> Have fun!
>
> 73, Bill
>

paulb

Re: [K3] CW Sidetone Pitch Change Problem - key clicks

Good morning folks

Noticed the odd pitch change a while ago, it is
on strong sigs over s9.
It is heard on some signals more
than others. The only thing I have found is
CW with moderate to bad key clicks seem to have this
odd tonal shift, compared to clean CW at the same
received level.

regards

Paul
zl1ajy