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K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

On 2/1/2012 2:23 PM, W7GJ, Lance wrote:
> One thing that disappointed me is that this very useful cross-mode
> feature (at least on 6m, where I do most of my operating), is
> available only if you are running VOX mode.
>
> I am not sure why it has been excluded when you run with a footswitch
> or sequencer to trigger the PTT line.

The answer is quite simple, the PTT line engages transmit in the mode
set by the "mode switch". In order to switch modes, only the CW input
(straight key or paddles) can be activated. Given the changes needed
in synthesizer/VCO settings, etc. between SSB and CW, I doubt that it
would be possible to change modes (SSB to CW) once the K3 is already
in transmit.

> Unless there is some special reason why can only ever work in VOX
> mode, those of us using amplifiers and PTT mode would sure like
> to see this feature included in future firmware updates!

While it might be possible to modify control to allow CW in SSB with
PTT if PTT and CW were activated at the very same instant (by adding
diodes from key in, dit in and dah in to PTT In), that would not fix
your issue with a sequencer since the sequencer (and foot switch) will
generally set PTT some fraction of a second *before* CW in any case.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2/1/2012 2:23 PM, W7GJ, Lance wrote:

> One thing that disappointed me is that this very useful cross-mode feature (at least
> on 6m, where I do most of my operating), is available only if you are running VOX mode.
>
> I am not sure why it has been excluded when you run with a footswitch or sequencer to
> trigger the PTT line. I NEVER run VOX mode here, so I have been forced to use macros
> to invoke SPLIT mode operation on different modes and different frequencies to try to
> simulate the operation of the built-in cross mode feature.
>
> Unless there is some special reason why can only ever work in VOX mode, those of us
> using amplifiers and PTT mode would sure like to see this feature included in future
> firmware updates!
>
> Thanks for the bandwidth! VY 73, Lance
>
>
>
> On 2/1/2012 7:09 PM, Gary Hinson [via Elecraft] wrote:
>> <Resent as the original didn't appear - sri if this is a dupe>
>>
>> Mmm, interesting.
>>
>> Prompted by other comments, I tested CW-in-SSB band-by-band. Starting at
>> 10m and working systematically down to 160m, the K3 would go into transmit
>> mode but produce no power out on any band. However, after moving 'down'
>> from 160m to 6m, it mysteriously started working again - and now works
>> correctly on every band.
>>
>> So, it seems that merely by changing bands and hitting the paddle, I have
>> cleared whatever it was that blocked the transmitter in CW-in-SSB. How odd!
>>
>> Frank (or anyone else whose CW-in-SSB doesn't work): perhaps you would try
>> the same thing?
>>
>> It still smells of a firmware bug to me.
>>
>> 73
>> Gary ZL2iFB
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [hidden email]</user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7244038&i=0>
>> [mailto:elecraft-
>> > [hidden email]</user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7244038&i=1>] On Behalf Of iain
>> macdonnell - N6ML
>> > Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2012 11:17 a.m.
>> > To: N3XX
>> > Cc: [hidden email]</user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7244038&i=2>
>> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: CW in SSB mode broken?
>> >
>> > For one thing, it's quite useful on 6m, where DX will often switch
>> > back and forth between CW and SSB on the same frequency).
>> >
>> > 73,
>> >
>> > ~iain / N6ML
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:11 PM, N3XX<[hidden email]
>> </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7244038&i=3>> wrote:
>> > > I must be missing something. Â Can someone explain why you would want
>> > > to send CW in SSB mode?
>> > > I did go and find the setting, changed it to SSB +CW, and it works
>> > > fine here, using firmware 4.36.
>> > >
>> > > Tnx& 73,
>> > > Tim - N3XX
>> > >
>> > > On 1/31/12, Frank R. Oppedijk<<mailto:[hidden email]
>> </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7244038&i=4>>[hidden email]
>> </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=7244038&i=5>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > Hi group,
>> > > Some time ago, I used to be able to send CW while in SSB mode, but
>> > > it no longer works. I do have the SSB +CW option on (press 1 in
>> > > CONFIG:CW WGHT), and do have the CW sidetone when I key my paddle
>> > > while in SSB mode. But the K3 does not produce RF output. I'm using
>> > > firmware version 04.39.
>> > > Did anyone else notice this? Have I missed something?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > __________________________________________________________
>> > ____
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Donehrlich@q.com

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

My K3 with Firmware 4.39 has the CW in SSB feature on all bands
including 6 meters in VOX or non-VOX mode. I use it a lot and have
never had a problem.

Don K7FJ

On 2/1/2012 1:48 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> On 2/1/2012 2:23 PM, W7GJ, Lance wrote:
>> One thing that disappointed me is that this very useful cross-mode
>> feature (at least on 6m, where I do most of my operating), is
>> available only if you are running VOX mode.
>>
>> I am not sure why it has been excluded when you run with a footswitch
>> or sequencer to trigger the PTT line.
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Lance,

It would be wise IMHO, for those using CW in SSB (or any other VHF/UHF
gear) and also having a sequencer, to use the TX INH input on the ACC
jack to inhibit transmit rather than asserting PTT at the end of the
sequence.

Yes, the K3 works a little differently than many other transceivers, but
the TX Inhibit function was well thought out explicitly for use with a
VHF/UHF sequencer.

You will likely have to add a pullup resistor to +5 volts the TX INH
line, but that should be an easy task, especially if a source of +5
volts is available in the sequencer logic.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/1/2012 4:48 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> On 2/1/2012 2:23 PM, W7GJ, Lance wrote:
>> One thing that disappointed me is that this very useful cross-mode
>> feature (at least on 6m, where I do most of my operating), is
>> available only if you are running VOX mode.
>>
>> I am not sure why it has been excluded when you run with a footswitch
>> or sequencer to trigger the PTT line.
> The answer is quite simple, the PTT line engages transmit in the mode
> set by the "mode switch". In order to switch modes, only the CW input
> (straight key or paddles) can be activated. Given the changes needed
> in synthesizer/VCO settings, etc. between SSB and CW, I doubt that it
> would be possible to change modes (SSB to CW) once the K3 is already
> in transmit.
>

Oliver Dröse

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

> While it might be possible to modify control to allow CW in SSB with
> PTT if PTT and CW were activated at the very same instant (by adding
> diodes from key in, dit in and dah in to PTT In), that would not fix
> your issue with a sequencer since the sequencer (and foot switch) will
> generally set PTT some fraction of a second *before* CW in any case.

Well, it actually depends on the sequencer, I'd say. ;-))

Within the "FA station manager" (http://www.dh8bqa.de/fa-sm/fa-sm-en.html) I
designed the sequencer to only switch input trigger = output trigger. That
means if you trigger the sequencer by PTT (i.e. from the mic) it will switch
all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc. and then PTT to TRX as the last stage. If
the trigger is CW then it will switch all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc. but
*not* PTT to TRX but just opens the CW interlock to TRX so the radio will
not see a PTT signal, only the CW signal. Therefor CW in SSB with the K3
works perfectly well even using a sequencer. ;-))

Nevertheless using TX-INH is probably the easier solution for K3's that
already have a DVR built in (plus CW anyway). I've designed a solution for
that case, too, but not yet up on my website.

Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
http://www.dh8bqa.de/

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

Olli,

While your intention may have been for PTT use, and your documentation
may be directed at PTT, the output from the sequencer is effectively an
open circuit (sequence not complete) or a circuit closure (sequence
complete). That is simply a signal - it can be applied to the K3 TX INH
input just as easily as being applied to the K3 PTT.

If you have an example of how your sequencer output is better applied to
PTT than to TX INH, please tell us. IMHO, the use of TX INH offers a
much greater range of control over the switching events and the emission
of RF from the K3.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/2/2012 7:17 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

>> While it might be possible to modify control to allow CW in SSB with
>> PTT if PTT and CW were activated at the very same instant (by adding
>> diodes from key in, dit in and dah in to PTT In), that would not fix
>> your issue with a sequencer since the sequencer (and foot switch) will
>> generally set PTT some fraction of a second *before* CW in any case.
> Well, it actually depends on the sequencer, I'd say. ;-))
>
> Within the "FA station manager" (http://www.dh8bqa.de/fa-sm/fa-sm-en.html) I
> designed the sequencer to only switch input trigger = output trigger. That
> means if you trigger the sequencer by PTT (i.e. from the mic) it will switch
> all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc. and then PTT to TRX as the last stage. If
> the trigger is CW then it will switch all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc. but
> *not* PTT to TRX but just opens the CW interlock to TRX so the radio will
> not see a PTT signal, only the CW signal. Therefor CW in SSB with the K3
> works perfectly well even using a sequencer. ;-))
>
> Nevertheless using TX-INH is probably the easier solution for K3's that
> already have a DVR built in (plus CW anyway). I've designed a solution for
> that case, too, but not yet up on my website.
>
> Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
> http://www.dh8bqa.de/
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Oliver Dröse

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

Hi Joe,

indeed, there are a lot of (but luckily not all) LNAs and PAs needing too
much switching time. That's why you will get into trouble with CW with a
sequencer behind the K3 even using the TX-INH feature. Therefor we designed
the CW buffer into our sequencer as well as a holdtime to avoid relay
chatter between CW characters. Then no problems with both problems anymore.
The pay-off is you can't use BK anymore, only Semi-BK. But your signal sure
sounds much better without truncated CW signs. ;-))

Basically a sequencer should always be installed before the TRX in the chain
(so mic/cw-key, then sequencer + LNA/PA, then transceiver). But the TX-INH
functions quite well with the K3 and some (most?) Yaesu radios so if LNA/PA
switching times are not too high using TX-INH is the more comfortable
solution as you still can use the TRX's built-in voice/cw-keyer which is not
possible with a sequencer up-front (that's why we designed those right into
the box, too, and of course 'cause not every transceiver has those built in
;-)).

So to repeat myself: it always depends! ;-))

73, Olli - DH8BQA

PS: Let me also say a big thanks especially to you to you and Don (W3FPR)
for your great replays to questions here on the list. A lot of stuff to
learn from you guys ... :-))

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Oliver Dröse" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

>
> Oliver,
>
> > Well, it actually depends on the sequencer, I'd say. ;-))
>
> Very good! Unfortunately, most stations I've seen require an
> excessive delay (generally the LNA Bypass is far too slow) which
> really means "paddle break-in" is not particularly effective
> due to truncated/missing initial characters.
>
> Where intelligent switching is possible it's certainly the right
> way to handle the problem.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2/2/2012 7:17 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>>> While it might be possible to modify control to allow CW in SSB with
>>> PTT if PTT and CW were activated at the very same instant (by adding
>>> diodes from key in, dit in and dah in to PTT In), that would not fix
>>> your issue with a sequencer since the sequencer (and foot switch) will
>>> generally set PTT some fraction of a second *before* CW in any case.
>>
>> Well, it actually depends on the sequencer, I'd say. ;-))
>>
>> Within the "FA station manager"
>> (http://www.dh8bqa.de/fa-sm/fa-sm-en.html) I
>> designed the sequencer to only switch input trigger = output trigger.
>> That
>> means if you trigger the sequencer by PTT (i.e. from the mic) it will
>> switch
>> all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc. and then PTT to TRX as the last stage.
>> If
>> the trigger is CW then it will switch all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc.
>> but
>> *not* PTT to TRX but just opens the CW interlock to TRX so the radio will
>> not see a PTT signal, only the CW signal. Therefor CW in SSB with the K3
>> works perfectly well even using a sequencer. ;-))
>>
>> Nevertheless using TX-INH is probably the easier solution for K3's that
>> already have a DVR built in (plus CW anyway). I've designed a solution
>> for
>> that case, too, but not yet up on my website.
>>
>> Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>> http://www.dh8bqa.de/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
> -----
> eMail ist virenfrei.
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> 02.02.2012

Oliver Dröse

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Hi Don,

indeed one of the sequencer outputs could also be applied to the TX-INH pin.
When we first designed the FA station manager I did not have my K3 yet so
did not know much about TX-INH (and never thought about that on my old Yaesu
radios, hi). Besides the solution should be usable with *any* available
transceiver that's why we chose to go for PTT (or to be more precise:
MIC-PTT, Digimode-PTT and CW, depending on the trigger).

Yes, TX-INH is quite comfortable as you can still use the K3's internal
voice/cw-keyer and do not need to use some external devices before the
sequencer. One of the reasons I designed (and use it myself) another
sequencer exclusively for K3 use (including the needed pull-up, etc.). But
that only works reasonably well as long as the switching times of LNA/PA are
not too high as you will loose/truncate the first cw signs when you need
higher switching delays (and thus need to prevent K3 output using TX-INH for
longer time then the first cw sign needs). Then it would be better again to
use the FA-SM with it's built-in CW buffer that will just send the dits and
dahs after everything has switched.

But well, isn't it nice to have choices? ;-))

Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
http://www.dh8bqa.de/

PS: Also see my comment in my reply to Joe - thanks for your great knowledge
sharing, guys! :-))

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: "Oliver Dröse" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

> Olli,
>
> While your intention may have been for PTT use, and your documentation may
> be directed at PTT, the output from the sequencer is effectively an open
> circuit (sequence not complete) or a circuit closure (sequence complete).
> That is simply a signal - it can be applied to the K3 TX INH input just as
> easily as being applied to the K3 PTT.
>
> If you have an example of how your sequencer output is better applied to
> PTT than to TX INH, please tell us. IMHO, the use of TX INH offers a much
> greater range of control over the switching events and the emission of RF
> from the K3.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 2/2/2012 7:17 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>>> While it might be possible to modify control to allow CW in SSB with
>>> PTT if PTT and CW were activated at the very same instant (by adding
>>> diodes from key in, dit in and dah in to PTT In), that would not fix
>>> your issue with a sequencer since the sequencer (and foot switch) will
>>> generally set PTT some fraction of a second *before* CW in any case.
>> Well, it actually depends on the sequencer, I'd say. ;-))
>>
>> Within the "FA station manager"
>> (http://www.dh8bqa.de/fa-sm/fa-sm-en.html) I
>> designed the sequencer to only switch input trigger = output trigger.
>> That
>> means if you trigger the sequencer by PTT (i.e. from the mic) it will
>> switch
>> all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc. and then PTT to TRX as the last stage.
>> If
>> the trigger is CW then it will switch all stages for pre-amp, amp, etc.
>> but
>> *not* PTT to TRX but just opens the CW interlock to TRX so the radio will
>> not see a PTT signal, only the CW signal. Therefor CW in SSB with the K3
>> works perfectly well even using a sequencer. ;-))
>>
>> Nevertheless using TX-INH is probably the easier solution for K3's that
>> already have a DVR built in (plus CW anyway). I've designed a solution
>> for
>> that case, too, but not yet up on my website.
>>
>> Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>> http://www.dh8bqa.de/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
> -----
> eMail ist virenfrei.
> Von AVG überprüft - www.avg.de
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virendatenbank: 2112/4781 - Ausgabedatum:
> 02.02.2012

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

Olli,

Fine on all of that. I did not think of using a CW buffer - in
instances where a sequencer is appropriate, QSK operation is not usually
a goal, so if the operator has to send 2 or 3 dits that will not be
heard on the air, I would think that is a reasonable compromise. Of
course, each to his own - if a CW buffer is added to the sequencer
operation, how does the operator "keep up"? Is all the CW delayed by
the sequencer time, and the sidetone sent to the operator in real time
with his input? I would think that would really "boggle the mind" if
the operator were to listen to his transmitted CW signal on another
receiver.

Maybe I missed something in the exchange, but do remember that I usually
defer to the KISS principle - where the operator may have to make some
decisions based on the circumstances rather than trying to have
automated equipment make decisions for the operator. Too many computer
applications try to tell me how to do things, but often their preferred
paths do not produce what I want - keeping to the KISS principle means
less automation, but it also means getting the results that I want.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/3/2012 6:05 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> indeed one of the sequencer outputs could also be applied to the TX-INH pin.
> When we first designed the FA station manager I did not have my K3 yet so
> did not know much about TX-INH (and never thought about that on my old Yaesu
> radios, hi). Besides the solution should be usable with *any* available
> transceiver that's why we chose to go for PTT (or to be more precise:
> MIC-PTT, Digimode-PTT and CW, depending on the trigger).
>
> Yes, TX-INH is quite comfortable as you can still use the K3's internal
> voice/cw-keyer and do not need to use some external devices before the
> sequencer. One of the reasons I designed (and use it myself) another
> sequencer exclusively for K3 use (including the needed pull-up, etc.). But
> that only works reasonably well as long as the switching times of LNA/PA are
> not too high as you will loose/truncate the first cw signs when you need
> higher switching delays (and thus need to prevent K3 output using TX-INH for
> longer time then the first cw sign needs). Then it would be better again to
> use the FA-SM with it's built-in CW buffer that will just send the dits and
> dahs after everything has switched.
>
> But well, isn't it nice to have choices? ;-))
>
> Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
> http://www.dh8bqa.de/
>
> PS: Also see my comment in my reply to Joe - thanks for your great knowledge
> sharing, guys! :-))
> 02.02.2012
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Tony Estep

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>...Is all the CW delayed by
> the sequencer time, and the sidetone sent to the operator in real time
> with his input? I would think that would really "boggle the mind"...
================
It depends on the amount of delay, of course, and I don't know about
Olli's gadget, but I can tell you that this is a problem for
software-defined radios that display significant latency. For example,
the internal keyer in the Power SDR program is useless for CW for
exactly this reason. To operate CW, you have to turn off the sidetone
and the keyer, set it to the straight-key setting, and use an external
keyer. Otherwise trying to listen to your own sending will drive you
nuts.

Tony KT0NY

--
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Oliver Dröse

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Hi Don,

> Of course, each to his own - if a CW buffer is added to the sequencer
> operation, how does the operator "keep up"? Is all the CW delayed by the
> sequencer time, and the sidetone sent to the operator in real time with
> his input? I would think that would really "boggle the mind" if the
> operator were to listen to his transmitted CW signal on another receiver.

Yes, if you choose to use the CW buffer (it's user selectable) then all CW
will be delayed. That works quite well for speeds up to +/- 80 wpm even with
the transceiver's sidetone. Going higher in speed will indeed put your brain
into "nuts-mode" (at least mine ;-)) that's why there is also a small piezo
inside the box and the availability to also connect an external speaker if
you prefer. Both will give direct feedback to what you actually send, the
internal sidetone is generated before the delay. In this case you'd have to
switch of the transceiver's sidetone, of course.

Anyway, enough on that topic on the mailing list I suggest, don't want to
bore people with those details that are usually only relevant to VHF+ guys
who really need a sequencer. ;-)) If anyone has anymore questions please
feel free to contact me off-list, I will be glad to answer them.

Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
http://www.dh8bqa.de/

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Edward R Cole

Re: FW: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Gary Hinson

My solution for CW is by using a manual PTT on the sequencer when
using CW mode sent by hand. This always on VHF or higher with
transverters, preamps, ext TR relays and Tx amplifiers
involved. When CW is generated by computer (keyboard) the sw I use
has built-in TR delay in the PTT command. PTT is controlled by RTS
and keying is via DTR. I have the same options selected for my digital sw.

On HF I have none of these so sequencing is not engaged and CW keying
is not an issue. I suppose some day there will be an HF amplifier
for my K3 so not sure how one controls PTT with CW. I suppose the TX
DLY setting handles normal situations for this. I guess one needs to
check the transfer delay in amp or relays if relying on the delay
function. If a long delay is needed QSK might not be usable. I don't
use CW on HF enough for that to be a problem for me.

73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
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BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
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Frank R. Oppedijk-3

Re: K3: CW in SSB mode broken?

In reply to this post by Gary Hinson

Hi Gary, group, Elecraft support,

I think I have found a strong correlation between CW in SSB not
working and the QRQ setting. Here follows:

To make CW in SSB work: set CONFIG:QRQ to OFF, power-cycle the K3.

To break CW in SSB: set CONFIG:QRQ to ON, power-cycle the K3.

73,

Frank PA4N

At 21:36 31/01/2012, Gary Hinson wrote:

>Hi Frank.
>
>I have the same problem: CW in SSB no longer works on K3#2887 running
>firmware 4.39. I raised this on the reflector some months back and went
>around the loop changing config settings, PTT, QRQ etc. I did manage to fix
>it temporarily by restoring the K3 firmware configs, but annoyingly it has
>packed up again since then.
>
>I *think* CW-in-SSB it might still work on some bands, not others. At
>least, that's what I found last time I checked - I haven't checked lately.
>
>I suspect there might be a cryptic bug in the firmware (the best kind!).
>
>73
>Gary ZL2iFB