Elecraft

K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

Classic

List

Threaded

11 messages Options

Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

Administrator

On p.31, the K3 manual says that the CW abbreviation ES isn't used in
data modes and might lead to confusion.

Why not recognize it in CW-to-Data and send an ampersand?

I believe I read somewhere that ES is actually from American Morse, and
was one of those characters with a half-space in it (like the old C,
didit-dit).

73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

wayne burdick

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

Administrator

On Oct 10, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote:

> On p.31, the K3 manual says that the CW abbreviation ES isn't used in
> data modes and might lead to confusion.
>
> Why not recognize it in CW-to-Data and send an ampersand?

We'll put this on the wish list, Leigh. Good idea.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

---

http://www.elecraft.com

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

Do you really want to remap words/abbreviations (like the 2 character
word "es" which is the symbol for the element einsteinium) in this
way? It's quite all right for prosigns like BT and the "..--"
mentioned in the operator's manual, but to me it violates the
principle of "least surprise" - is "es" is a word in other languages
expressed using International Morse?

Bob NW8L

On 10/10/07, wayne burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Oct 10, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote:
>
> > On p.31, the K3 manual says that the CW abbreviation ES isn't used in
> > data modes and might lead to confusion.
> >
> > Why not recognize it in CW-to-Data and send an ampersand?
>
> We'll put this on the wish list, Leigh. Good idea.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ---
>
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Kevin Rock

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

If I remember my history correctly ES was the American Morse method of
sending an ampersand. Leigh was quite correct in mentioning this proword
as using the half step much like DE uses. My favorite drift was the
original HO HO to HEE HEE to HI HI. Much like the great vowel shift of
Middle English which was still sliding while William Shakespeare was
writing his plays and sonnets. Some of his rhymes no longer work in our
English but they did then.

My vote is to use the old methods and allow the ampersand its due.
73,
Kevin. KD5ONS

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:17:01 -0700, Bob Cunnings <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Do you really want to remap words/abbreviations (like the 2 character
> word "es" which is the symbol for the element einsteinium) in this
> way? It's quite all right for prosigns like BT and the "..--"
> mentioned in the operator's manual, but to me it violates the
> principle of "least surprise" - is "es" is a word in other languages
> expressed using International Morse?
>
> Bob NW8L
>
> On 10/10/07, wayne burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote:
>>
>> > On p.31, the K3 manual says that the CW abbreviation ES isn't used in
>> > data modes and might lead to confusion.
>> >
>> > Why not recognize it in CW-to-Data and send an ampersand?
>>
>> We'll put this on the wish list, Leigh. Good idea.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

Sure, but we're not using American Morse here - there's no "half step"
in International Morse. Whatever - I'm the communications protocol
design guy at work, and can't avoid a purist attitude about gateways
(CW to ASCII in this case). I can see prosigns used as link control
characters since they are distinct codes, but think that International
Morse text, numeric, and punctuation characters should pass through
untouched - why second guess the intention of the sender?

Bob NW8L

On 10/10/07, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If I remember my history correctly ES was the American Morse method of
> sending an ampersand. Leigh was quite correct in mentioning this proword
> as using the half step much like DE uses. My favorite drift was the
> original HO HO to HEE HEE to HI HI. Much like the great vowel shift of
> Middle English which was still sliding while William Shakespeare was
> writing his plays and sonnets. Some of his rhymes no longer work in our
> English but they did then.
>
> My vote is to use the old methods and allow the ampersand its due.
> 73,
> Kevin. KD5ONS

AC7AC

RE: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

dj7mgq

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

> principle of "least surprise" - is "es" is a word in other languages

"es" means "it" in German.

Es ist schön = It is beautiful.

vy 73 de toby
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

Administrator

In reply to this post by Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Thank you. And to mention the concerns of others, I agree this would be
a good idea only if it can be enabled/disabled or if it can be reliably
distinguished from the letter sequence "es" via the half space.
73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 9:53 pm, wayne burdick wrote:

Kevin Rock

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

International Morse code does not use certain half spaces like the
American Morse code does. However there are still half spaces in well
formed code in certain prowords such as DE and ES. If you send them
without the half space they don't mean the same thing. Therefore you can
sense meaning from the spacing. Since that is the way it has been used
and still is being used why should we change the protocol?
Kevin.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:02:01 -0700, Bob Cunnings <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Sure, but we're not using American Morse here - there's no "half step"
> in International Morse. Whatever - I'm the communications protocol
> design guy at work, and can't avoid a purist attitude about gateways
> (CW to ASCII in this case). I can see prosigns used as link control
> characters since they are distinct codes, but think that International
> Morse text, numeric, and punctuation characters should pass through
> untouched - why second guess the intention of the sender?
>
> Bob NW8L
>
> On 10/10/07, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If I remember my history correctly ES was the American Morse method of
>> sending an ampersand. Leigh was quite correct in mentioning this
>> proword
>> as using the half step much like DE uses. My favorite drift was the
>> original HO HO to HEE HEE to HI HI. Much like the great vowel shift of
>> Middle English which was still sliding while William Shakespeare was
>> writing his plays and sonnets. Some of his rhymes no longer work in our
>> English but they did then.
>>
>> My vote is to use the old methods and allow the ampersand its due.
>> 73,
>> Kevin. KD5ONS
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

David Pratt-2

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

In a recent message, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>International Morse code does not use certain half spaces like the
>American Morse code does. However there are still half spaces in well
>formed code in certain prowords such as DE and ES. If you send them
>without the half space they don't mean the same thing.

I never use half-spaces in ES or DE but I do use di-dah-di-di-dah-dit
for inverted commas and di-dah-dah-di-dah-dit for @ which I presume will
be included in the K3 character set.
--
David G4DMP
Leeds, England, UK
------

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Thom LaCosta

Re: K3 CW to Data and "ES" for ampersand?

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, David Pratt wrote:

> I never use half-spaces in ES or DE but I do use di-dah-di-di-dah-dit for
> inverted commas and di-dah-dah-di-dah-dit for @ which I presume will be
> included in the K3 character set.

Never understood half-spaces....maybe I just leanred how to do it w/o
understanding...but I think es an de feel and sound different than
those letters within a word.

I guess I need to read the manual more to determine if I need to learn new
code(or unlearn old code).

73 - k3hrn
Thom,EIEIO
Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer

www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon
www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com