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K3 DSP processor speed

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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Wow, so much for a non-kool aid question...You comments give up my friend!
I have a K3, KX3 and TS-590. It's well documented that the nr in the K3 is poor and leave a lot to be desired. Also, in an effort to fix it by making it more adjustable, Elecraft overcomplicated its implementation. I love Elecraft products, but also love the simplicity and effectiveness of nr implementation in the TS-590 (in my opinion even better than the one in KX3). Regarding warranty and service, I totally agree Elecraft is hand down #1 in this area. However, Kenwood just fixed the ALC issue in my TS-590 free of charge after 4 years. The question is, can I send my 3 yrs old (early production) KX3 to Elecraft to get all the latest corrections/improvements (e.g. tuning noise) free of charge. After all, I paid about the same amount of money that someone is paying today for a better product. ;) I'm a big fan of Elecraft, but resist drinking the Kool aid in order to encourage competition.
Robert-KP4Y

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 12:00 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'll make a few comments with information you likely already know and drop
the thread.
1. audio hiss is common with the largest contributor being particles
traversing the substrate layers of semi-conductors (you get it in tubes as
well, just not as much). The design keys being S/N ratio, dynamic range, and
gain. Any solution to remove hiss without consideration to S/N ratio and
gain results in loss of signal level. Hard to complain about weak signal
work if the system is degraded by mods/adjustments.
2. By default the K3S receive audio isn't optimal for everyone's ears and
dynamic range. That's likely why there's an audio equalizer for both receive
and transmit audio. If you've not adjusted that to optimize the audio to
your tastes then you're missing out.

I have different hearing issues in each ear. My wish is to be able to adjust
left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the sub
installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals on
my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being
more sensitive than my left.

Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's ample
signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless of
the radio you use.

Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support.

Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
To: [hidden email]; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jer,

Perceived audio is just that. Perception. And to the individual, it is
*everything*.

Op skill does come into play, no doubt.

Types of noise come into play, no doubt.

The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
to "work" under different noise condx.

The K3 is an excellent radio. I bought one after using a friends at
Sweepstakes CW two years ago. The only time I looked back was when I had to

hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.

BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
fully CCW. Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they
compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer. I
also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
would induce this hiss. Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.

The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S. I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable ;>)

.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jim,
Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work.

You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert
feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this.
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play.
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise.

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time.

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do.

You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You
typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they
know what they are doing and do more good than harm.

Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR. Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM

<cut>

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Jim Low man

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wow, I didn't think anyone coded in assembly language any longer.
Live and learn!

73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 11/9/2015 6:46 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also extremely compact.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>

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Gary Gregory-2

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I agree with Jerry, I have found several instances when i need to adjust RF
Gain, slope, athr etc, example, early mornings here I can pull a couple
VK2's, some 2500 kilometers away on 40M. When there are storms around, I
can take away most if not all of the static crashes and they are a clear
copy and easily understood. In the afternoons, again on 40M, with stations
no more thank 600 kilometers away, I change a couple of my settings BUT
still use NR at 5.1 or 5.2 and I have TX EQ set up diferently on TX ESSB
(set at 3Kz wide) and I have an armchair copy.

I had the "hiss" appear but over time I seem to have been able to fine tune
the receive so that I am not noticing it like it was. Is this after mods
done by Elecraft recently and the new Synth board?, maybe, but I have
learned to operate the K3 better since I went over many of the posts on the
reflector and noted what öthers"had tried. The end result, I now listen to
the K3 on speaker without grinding my teeth and the CM500 headphones are
perfect for my fractured hearing.

This was not always the case, recently Elecraft conducted surgery on my K3
(#679) and I have a totally different wireless (intentionally used TIC)
today to the one I purchased in 2007.

I had a TS-480S and found the DSP was mostly ineffective (to my ears) and I
had other issues with it so I sold it. As an ex-dealer for Yaesu and
Kenwood, I can say with some certainty here that their service regimen is
quite different to Elecraft and size of the companies does play a role
here. I am not going to slam any company, nor am I heaping unwarranted
praise, I know from my experience, Elecraft not only back up their products
well, they show keen interest in each customer who reports an issue and
work very hard to resolve the problem. I don't know that we can expect
more.

I think Jerry Moore is on the right track here, there are many things that
can be adjusted on a K3 and I have been shown a K3 some time ago that the
operator had lost interest in. I had a listen, made it sound like mine and
the smile on his face was great to see. I have to admit, just abut every
setting was changed, I wrote down what I had done and he is now back on air
with his K3.

The reason I won't be rushing to a K3S is simple, My K3 is too good to
sell, and I have never owned a Ham rig for this long, no need to continue
the search, I found the right tool for the job I want it to do.
73

Gary

On 11 November 2015 at 03:28, Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wow, so much for a non-kool aid question...You comments give up my friend!
> I have a K3, KX3 and TS-590. It's well documented that the nr in the K3 is
> poor and leave a lot to be desired. Also, in an effort to fix it by making
> it more adjustable, Elecraft overcomplicated its implementation. I love
> Elecraft products, but also love the simplicity and effectiveness of nr
> implementation in the TS-590 (in my opinion even better than the one in
> KX3). Regarding warranty and service, I totally agree Elecraft is hand down
> #1 in this area. However, Kenwood just fixed the ALC issue in my TS-590
> free of charge after 4 years. The question is, can I send my 3 yrs old
> (early production) KX3 to Elecraft to get all the latest
> corrections/improvements (e.g. tuning noise) free of charge. After all, I
> paid about the same amount of money that someone is paying today for a
> better product. ;) I'm a big fan of Elecraft, but resist drinking the Kool
> aid in order to encourage competition.
> Robert-KP4Y
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 12:00 PM, "[hidden email]" <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I'll make a few comments with information you likely already know and drop
> the thread.
> 1. audio hiss is common with the largest contributor being particles
> traversing the substrate layers of semi-conductors (you get it in tubes as
> well, just not as much). The design keys being S/N ratio, dynamic range,
> and
> gain. Any solution to remove hiss without consideration to S/N ratio and
> gain results in loss of signal level. Hard to complain about weak signal
> work if the system is degraded by mods/adjustments.
> 2. By default the K3S receive audio isn't optimal for everyone's ears and
> dynamic range. That's likely why there's an audio equalizer for both
> receive
> and transmit audio. If you've not adjusted that to optimize the audio to
> your tastes then you're missing out.
>
> I have different hearing issues in each ear. My wish is to be able to
> adjust
> left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the
> sub
> installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals
> on
> my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being
> more sensitive than my left.
>
> Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
> level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's
> ample
> signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
> edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
> respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless
> of
> the radio you use.
>
> Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
> from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
> talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support.
>
> Jerry Moore
> CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
> http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
> An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
> To: [hidden email]; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Jer,
>
> Perceived audio is just that. Perception. And to the individual, it is
> *everything*.
>
> Op skill does come into play, no doubt.
>
> Types of noise come into play, no doubt.
>
> The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
> to "work" under different noise condx.
>
> The K3 is an excellent radio. I bought one after using a friends at
> Sweepstakes CW two years ago. The only time I looked back was when I had
> to
>
> hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.
>
> BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
> fully CCW. Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised
> they
> compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer. I
> also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
> would induce this hiss. Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.
>
> The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
> gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
> P.S. I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable ;>)
>
>
>
> .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> [hidden email]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
> To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Jim,
> Here's a non-KookAid question for you.
>
> Just like in school..
> Show your work.
>
> You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert
> feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
> Please provide the data upon which you base this.
> What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill
> comes
> into play.
> I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
> it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal
> out
> of the noise.
>
> Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
> parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
> compared to a system that allows for granular control.
>
> Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.
>
> Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of
> which
> are out of the operators control and change over time.
>
> No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
> receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
> dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..
>
> On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
> filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
> NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
> I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
> (e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
> play with settings to see what I can do.
>
> You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair.
> You
> typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes
> they
> know what they are doing and do more good than harm.
>
>
> Jerry Moore
> CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
> http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
> An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
> To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR. Even with just two
> different, fixed, settings.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
> <cut>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Edward R Cole

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Robert Sands

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question. Is all this feedback on how good or how bad NR
works about reception of CW (or does it apply to SSB?). Only time I
really need NR is when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB
(e.g. signal is running S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9. I find NR
will lower the s-meter to about S6-S7 under those conditions but the
audio is distorted by NR such that intelligibility is lowered - ergo
no help to copy the signal. I've tried several NR settings with some
being better but none helping me understand speech better than
running without NR. Often NB works better than NR, but NB also tends
to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never helpful for
improving intelligibility (for me). I will admit that I have extreme
hearing issues that make ordinary speech a challenge. So any
processing that imparts distortion reduces my ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with other brand radios,
either. The only NR that works for me is in my expensive Bose
airline headset. That is working on different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that NR probably is
ineffective. I have it selectable in my hearing aids and often find
it is not helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but clarity
of sound is impacted. In a crowded room full of babble of the
multitude, I select the TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency
response and I turn vol up to max. <helps a little>

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Gary Gregory-2

I have my hearing checked every year. My hearing is good. I have 2)K3 and 1)K3S. I have never had a hiss problem with any.
George, W6GF
PS Having worked with TMS320xxxx processors, the only way to go is assembly.

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:39 AM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with Jerry, I have found several instances when i need to adjust RF
Gain, slope, athr etc, example, early mornings here I can pull a couple
VK2's, some 2500 kilometers away on 40M. When there are storms around, I
can take away most if not all of the static crashes and they are a clear
copy and easily understood. In the afternoons, again on 40M, with stations
no more thank 600 kilometers away, I change a couple of my settings BUT
still use NR at 5.1 or 5.2 and I have TX EQ set up diferently on TX ESSB
(set at 3Kz wide) and I have an armchair copy.

I had the "hiss" appear but over time I seem to have been able to fine tune
the receive so that I am not noticing it like it was. Is this after mods
done by Elecraft recently and the new Synth board?, maybe, but I have
learned to operate the K3 better since I went over many of the posts on the
reflector and noted what öthers"had tried. The end result, I now listen to
the K3 on speaker without grinding my teeth and the CM500 headphones are
perfect for my fractured hearing.

This was not always the case, recently Elecraft conducted surgery on my K3
(#679) and I have a totally different wireless (intentionally used TIC)
today to the one I purchased in 2007.

I had a TS-480S and found the DSP was mostly ineffective (to my ears) and I
had other issues with it so I sold it. As an ex-dealer for Yaesu and
Kenwood, I can say with some certainty here that their service regimen is
quite different to Elecraft and size of the companies does play a role
here. I am not going to slam any company, nor am I heaping unwarranted
praise, I know from my experience, Elecraft not only back up their products
well, they show keen interest in each customer who reports an issue and
work very hard to resolve the problem. I don't know that we can expect
more.

I think Jerry Moore is on the right track here, there are many things that
can be adjusted on a K3 and I have been shown a K3 some time ago that the
operator had lost interest in. I had a listen, made it sound like mine and
the smile on his face was great to see. I have to admit, just abut every
setting was changed, I wrote down what I had done and he is now back on air
with his K3.

The reason I won't be rushing to a K3S is simple, My K3 is too good to
sell, and I have never owned a Ham rig for this long, no need to continue
the search, I found the right tool for the job I want it to do.
73

Gary

On 11 November 2015 at 03:28, Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

--

*Gary - VK1ZZ, K3NHLSkype: Gary.VK1ZZhttp://www.qsl.net/vk1zz
<http://www.qsl.net/vk1zz>Motorhome Portable*
*Miss Behavin'*

*Elecraft K3KPA500FT #18KAT500FT #007*
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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Jim Bolit

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

What is SSB an acronym for???

Jim
W6AIM

.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward
R Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:44 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question. Is all this feedback on how good or how bad NR works about
reception of CW (or does it apply to SSB?). Only time I really need NR is
when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB (e.g. signal is running
S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9. I find NR will lower the s-meter to
about S6-S7 under those conditions but the audio is distorted by NR such
that intelligibility is lowered - ergo no help to copy the signal. I've
tried several NR settings with some being better but none helping me
understand speech better than running without NR. Often NB works better
than NR, but NB also tends to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never helpful for improving
intelligibility (for me). I will admit that I have extreme hearing issues
that make ordinary speech a challenge. So any processing that imparts
distortion reduces my ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with other brand radios, either.
The only NR that works for me is in my expensive Bose airline headset. That
is working on different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that NR probably is
ineffective. I have it selectable in my hearing aids and often find it is
not helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but clarity of sound is
impacted. In a crowded room full of babble of the multitude, I select the
TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency response and I turn vol up to
max. <helps a little>

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Jim Bolit

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

Everybody stop, I hit the send button to soon.

I know what it stands for.

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: jim [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:01 AM
To: 'Edward R Cole'; '[hidden email]'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

What is SSB an acronym for???

Jim
W6AIM

.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward
R Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:44 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question. Is all this feedback on how good or how bad NR works about
reception of CW (or does it apply to SSB?). Only time I really need NR is
when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB (e.g. signal is running
S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9. I find NR will lower the s-meter to
about S6-S7 under those conditions but the audio is distorted by NR such
that intelligibility is lowered - ergo no help to copy the signal. I've
tried several NR settings with some being better but none helping me
understand speech better than running without NR. Often NB works better
than NR, but NB also tends to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never helpful for improving
intelligibility (for me). I will admit that I have extreme hearing issues
that make ordinary speech a challenge. So any processing that imparts
distortion reduces my ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with other brand radios, either.
The only NR that works for me is in my expensive Bose airline headset. That
is working on different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that NR probably is
ineffective. I have it selectable in my hearing aids and often find it is
not helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but clarity of sound is
impacted. In a crowded room full of babble of the multitude, I select the
TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency response and I turn vol up to
max. <helps a little>

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Grant Youngman

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Jim Bolit

It seems to me that “drowning in Kool Aid” is no worse than what are little more than anecdotal comments about how one radio is better than another one in regards to noise reduction. Especially because essentially the same “leaky LMS” algorithm is used by most if not all of them. And it doesn’t have very much to do with how many Tera-hertz the DSP chips run or how much the radio weighs.

On another list, at another time, for a for a very good radio made by another American manufacturer, we had all the same never ending arguments. I’m sure if we took those posts and changed the name of the radio, you couldn't tell them from the current crop. Someone always thought their IC-xxx or TS-yyyy was sooooo much better. Anyone saying anything positive about the radio in question (on just about any topic) was immediately accused of being a fan of Kool Aid and having gone to the dark side. It took actual measurements of (S+N)/N to make the point that — oh, by the way — NR on that radio did what it was supposed to do — raise (S+N)/N on the signal of interest — quite well, regardless of how much or how little it sounded your favorite “other” radio.

Perhaps someone would like to offer up one or more actual facts, or make some actual confirmable measurements. It isn’t that hard to do.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

>
>
> They were drowning in Kool Aide.
>

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Administrator

Folks, we closed this thread earlier today.

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 11/10/2015 12:06 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

> It seems to me that “drowning in Kool Aid” is no worse than what are little more than anecdotal comments about how one radio is better than another one in regards to noise reduction. Especially because essentially the same “leaky LMS” algorithm is used by most if not all of them. And it doesn’t have very much to do with how many Tera-hertz the DSP chips run or how much the radio weighs.
>
> On another list, at another time, for a for a very good radio made by another American manufacturer, we had all the same never ending arguments. I’m sure if we took those posts and changed the name of the radio, you couldn't tell them from the current crop. Someone always thought their IC-xxx or TS-yyyy was sooooo much better. Anyone saying anything positive about the radio in question (on just about any topic) was immediately accused of being a fan of Kool Aid and having gone to the dark side. It took actual measurements of (S+N)/N to make the point that — oh, by the way — NR on that radio did what it was supposed to do — raise (S+N)/N on the signal of interest — quite well, regardless of how much or how little it sounded your favorite “other” radio.
>
> Perhaps someone would like to offer up one or more actual facts, or make some actual confirmable measurements. It isn’t that hard to do.
>
> Grant NQ5T
> K3 #2091, KX3 #8342
>
>
>>
>> They were drowning in Kool Aide.
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Jim Bolit

Simple Slop Bucket.

Something Seems Broken.

Sure Sounds Bad.

Start Sending Better.

73, Charlie k3ICH

What is SSB an acronym for???

Jim
W6AIM

.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Edward R Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:44 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question. Is all this feedback on how good
or how bad NR works about reception of CW (or does
it apply to SSB?). Only time I really need NR is
when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB
(e.g. signal is running
S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9. I find NR will
lower the s-meter to about S6-S7 under those
conditions but the audio is distorted by NR such
that intelligibility is lowered - ergo no help to
copy the signal. I've tried several NR settings
with some being better but none helping me
understand speech better than running without NR.
Often NB works better than NR, but NB also tends
to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never
helpful for improving intelligibility (for me). I
will admit that I have extreme hearing issues that
make ordinary speech a challenge. So any
processing that imparts distortion reduces my
ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD
with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with
other brand radios, either.
The only NR that works for me is in my expensive
Bose airline headset. That is working on
different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that
NR probably is ineffective. I have it selectable
in my hearing aids and often find it is not
helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but
clarity of sound is impacted. In a crowded room
full of babble of the multitude, I select the
TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency
response and I turn vol up to max. <helps a
little>

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman

There are no bad radios currently on the market. Some are better
radios, but better is in the eyes {ears} of the beholder. However,
those radios of yesteryear, as compared to the current breed of radios
from Elecraft, Kenwood, Yaesu, ICOM, Flex and Tentec and ????? are
really in the back seat in terms of overall performance. Yes we do have
our favorite because of our operation preferences, our QTH, our antenna
farm restricted or not, our personal type of noise and a host of other
variables.

I agree with Rob Sherwood...........If it fits your needs and budget and
you enjoy using it, then it is a good radio. Look no further. However,
as technology moves forward at present at lightning speed, I believe if
a radio is approaching 10 years old or more, one should consider
replacing it.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10163

On 11/10/2015 2:06 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:
> It seems to me that “drowning in Kool Aid” is no worse than what are little more than anecdotal comments about how one radio is better than another one in regards to noise reduction. Especially because essentially the same “leaky LMS” algorithm is used by most if not all of them. And it doesn’t have very much to do with how many Tera-hertz the DSP chips run or how much the radio weighs.
>
> On another list, at another time, for a for a very good radio made by another American manufacturer, we had all the same never ending arguments. I’m sure if we took those posts and changed the name of the radio, you couldn't tell them from the current crop. Someone always thought their IC-xxx or TS-yyyy was sooooo much better. Anyone saying anything positive about the radio in question (on just about any topic) was immediately accused of being a fan of Kool Aid and having gone to the dark side. It took actual measurements of (S+N)/N to make the point that — oh, by the way — NR on that radio did what it was supposed to do — raise (S+N)/N on the signal of interest — quite well, regardless of how much or how little it sounded your favorite “other” radio.
>
> Perhaps someone would like to offer up one or more actual facts, or make some actual confirmable measurements. It isn’t that hard to do.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

On Tue,11/10/2015 2:35 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
> There are no bad radios currently on the market.

Obviously you've never operated a contest with a neighbor running an
FTDX5000, IC7600, IC706, or others in that class. All occupy a lot more
than their fair share of CW bandwidth and TX lots of phase noise. I
would call them bad radios.

73, Jim K9YC
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David Gilbert

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

What on earth would cause you to make a statement like that? A large
number of rigs still on the market have fundamental and inexcusably bad
key clicks and phase noise that pollute the bands, not to mention the
ones with wide front ends that pound the bejeezus out of the AGC from 10
KHz away.

Dave AB7E

> On Tue,11/10/2015 2:35 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
>> There are no bad radios currently on the market.
>

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Administrator

Guys - This thread is closed.

Eric
Moderator - really!
/elecraft.com/

On 11/10/2015 3:00 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>
> What on earth would cause you to make a statement like that? A large number
> of rigs still on the market have fundamental and inexcusably bad key clicks
> and phase noise that pollute the bands, not to mention the ones with wide
> front ends that pound the bejeezus out of the AGC from 10 KHz away.
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