K3 ESD

[Don Wilhelm-4]

  As in my prior post - ground both to the *same* grounding point.
It does not have to be a good ground in the sense of RF or lightning
ground, but it must be the *same* ground point.  Remember that the "name
of the game" is that everything should be at the same potential - and
that need not necessarily be "zero volts = ground".
It is the *difference* in potential between the points that you are
working with or touching that should be zero, not that absolute
potential with respect to "mother earth ground".

Does that not make sense considering that you are connecting the work
surfaces to ground through a 1 megohm resistor.

Gradual discharge of charged leads and surfaces is important to keep
damage to an absolute minimum - so muffin tins connected to ground
through a high value resistor are OK, and the anti-static foam placed on
your anti-static mat before removing the ICs all will work fine.

While I cannot dispute the advice to "touch a grounded metallic surface"
offered in some of the Elecraft manuals (it is better than nothing),
that does create an immediate discharge which can cause damage if the
item being touched to the grounded surface is a lead of the IC device
itself - the intent of that statement is to use the resistivity of your
body to dissipate the charge - in other words, touch your hand to the
grounded surface, but do not touch the lead of the IC directly to it.

It is better to wear a wrist strap, and to work on an anti-static mat.  
Touch tools, free-floating conductors and the ICs to the mat before
handling.

The same goes for boards that have been removed from their native
assemblies - those may have sensitive inputs which are not connected to
their normal circuits, and can be a static-prone area.
Once the components are assembled into their working (complete) circuit,
the static damage concern should go away - except in extreme cases like
lightning damage.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/18/2010 7:37 PM, david m wrote:

> Yes. If you are using a commercially available wrist strap, the 1M
> resistor is built in.  An anti-static mat will also have a surface
> resistivity of at least 1Mohm/sq.  Ground both and you'll be safe, and
> your equipment will be safe as well.
>
> On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 15:08 -0500, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> NOT a direct ground - through a high value (1 megohm) resistor, YES.
>> That is basic SAFETY.
>>
>> Connecting your body directly to ground can cause bodily harm or even
>> death if you accidentally come in contact with a source of voltage.
>> Even low voltages can be dangerous if the source is capable of high
>> current (such as a battery).
>>
>> For the same reasons, do not work on a fully conducting work surface -
>> that may be fine for auto mechanic work, but should never be used to
>> work on any electrical or electronic circuits.  It is a matter of
>> personal safety.
>

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[Alan Bloom]

On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 15:55 -0800, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
...
> If the part comes in ESD packaging, it's smart to treat it as ESD sensitive.

Some distributors put all parts in ESD envelopes whether they are
sensitive or not.  I have had CONNECTORS come in ESD packaging!

Alan N1AL


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[Don Cunningham]

Mouser does it all the time.  My Amphenol PL-259's were even in ESD
packaging.  Good thing is they arrived with no static damage :>)
73,
Don

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[David Gilbert]

Yes ... I just said the same thing in response to another message.  If
you or the parts are moving around the room, being connected to a common
reference point as you or they do so makes a lot of sense, and "ground",
while sometimes not as perfect as we'd like to believe, is better than
just about anything else.  It greatly minimizes the equalizations that
have to be protected against.

Any common reference point would do just as well, though ... I could
have a copper floor that floated 1,000 volts above "ground" and as long
as I did everything within the confines of that floor I'd be in good
shape.  I could be in the gondola of a hot air balloon 1,000 feet above
"ground" and if everything in that gondola was at the same potential I'd
be in good shape.  If I have a conductive mat laid out in front of me,
and all my parts are lying on it, and I am connected to that mat while
I'm working, and the first thing I do when I return to the mat after
going somewhere else is to connect myself back to the mat (standard ESD
protocol), there is no additional advantage of any of it being connected
to "ground".

Having everything connected to a common reference point is the important
part of all of this, and the reason I keep yapping about it is that some
folks (like the guy who earned my initial response) seem to think that
being connected to ground is the important part.  It isn't.

Dave   AB7E



On 12/18/2010 5:49 PM, david m wrote:

> No, it is not false.  The problem is that when you get up, and move
> around, your potential will change from that of the equipment.   Touch
> it again, and you can have an ESD event.  Ground the equipment and
> yourself (through a high value resistor) and it will ensure that
> everything will remain at the same potential no matter
>
> There are different ways that ESD events can occur: the human body model
> is where a charged person discharged into a device at a lower potential,
> which is the most common,  The charged device model, which is not as
> common but still equally valid, is where a device is charged through
> either contact with another charged object, or through tribocharging of
> itself.  When this device contacts a surface of lower or ground
> potential, a discharge can occur and damage it.
>
> I've been working with ESD protection for more than 25 years, so, I'll
> keep doing what has been proven to work, has been scientifically
> accepted by the EOS/ESD Association, the electronics industry and the
> military.  You're free to do what you want, of course.
>
> AJ4TF
>
>
>
> On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 14:04 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
>> Wrong.
>>
>> First off, the guy never said anything about connecting the item to
>> ground ... he stated that as long as you were connected to ground you
>> were OK.  That's false.
>>
>> It is also false that both of you need to be connected to ground for
>> ESD, although that may be good practice for other reasons.  All that
>> is necessary is that you and the stuff you're working on be connected
>> to the same potential.  It's basic Ohm's Law 101.
>>
>> Dave   AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/18/2010 12:49 PM, david m wrote:
>>> YES YES YES.  Ground both yourself and the item you're working on.  It's
>>> basic ESD prevention 101.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:16:07 -0700
>>>> From: David Gilbert<[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 ESD
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NO no no ... you don't want to connect yourself to ground.  You want to
>>>> connect yourself to whatever semi-conducting surface you are working on
>>>> (the one that the K3 and it's components are resting on).  Connecting
>>>> yourself to ground merely increases the chance that there will be a
>>>> potential between you and the rig.
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>

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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

  Ron,

While we all agree that screws in an anti-static package is overkill, I
hope that all will consider the essential content of this thread.

It does not matter whether everything is a "ground" or whether it is at
1000 volts above ground.  What is important is that everything in your
working environment is at the same potential.  Connecting your wrist
strap and the anti-static mat (on your work area) to the same "ground"
point will assure that condition.

Open the ESD prevention packages on the anti-static mat and let your
hands linger on the antistatic mat a bit before picking up any component
and all will be well.

As for "touching a grounded metal surface", my prior comments will
suffice - it is better than nothing, but there is a "better way".

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/18/2010 10:58 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> I've gotten spare screws from Elecraft in ESD packages too, Hi!
>
> But, if a newbie isn't sure, it's not a bad "rule of thumb".
>
> Gad, I'm glad that thread is over!
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Cunningham [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:06 PM
> To: [hidden email]; Ron D'Eau Claire
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 ESD
>
> Mouser does it all the time.  My Amphenol PL-259's were even in ESD
> packaging.  Good thing is they arrived with no static damage :>)
> 73,
> Don
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

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[John-483]

Perhaps instead of using the word "ground", we should use the word "common".

John
k7up


>It does not matter whether everything is a "ground" or whether it is at
>1000 volts above ground.  What is important is that everything in your
>working environment is at the same potential.  Connecting your wrist
>strap and the anti-static mat (on your work area) to the same "ground"
>point will assure that condition.
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[ynkedragon]

Phil,

I too have had the experience of feeling liquid solder on bare skin, but in a less dramatic part of my body.  

When I was young and dumb, about 35 years ago, I was attempting a repair of a wire antenna with the broken connection about 6" above eye level.  A large drop of solder fell on the inside of my forearm and sizzled as it cooled and hardened--then had to be dug out of burned flesh,   I NEVER made that or a similar mistake again, always asking myself, if some solder falls . . . where will it fall?  

You have quite a gift for teaching an important lesson in a funny and dramatic way.  Thanks for making me laugh
until my sides hurt.

73,  Blair K3YD






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[AC7AC]

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[Craig - AE6RR]

On the serious side of this, I highly recommend wearing glasses or safety
glasses when soldering.  On more than one occasion in the past (when radios
had terminal strips with soldered wires) I have sprayed little blobs of
solder on myself when removing a wire from a wrapped connection.  The wire
strands can sometimes spring back and fling solder.  I have had to remove
solder bits from the lens' of my glasses.

Of course these days many of us need glasses to find the radio...

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Gregory
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Steve Ellington
Cc: Barry; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Soldering Naked

'Chuckle'...OK...I guess the 'blob' of metal from the MIG welder that
entered my boot and caused me to star in an unscripted episode of 'Dancing
with the Sparks' pales into insignificance.

My wife is still laughing at my antics but at least Mr. Happy is remains
undamaged in my case the embarrassment level is somewhat less than yours.

Enjoy the Xmas break all....:-)

73's

Gary


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[k6dgw]

On 12/19/2010 2:31 PM, Craig - AE6RR wrote:
> On the serious side of this, I highly recommend wearing glasses or safety
> glasses when soldering.  On more than one occasion in the past (when radios
> had terminal strips with soldered wires) I have sprayed little blobs of
> solder on myself when removing a wire from a wrapped connection.  The wire
> strands can sometimes spring back and fling solder.  I have had to remove
> solder bits from the lens' of my glasses.
>
> Of course these days many of us need glasses to find the radio...

You beat me to it but I was going to urge the same thing.  We don't see
many terminal strips Craig described these days, but we do solder to
terminals on jacks, plugs, connectors, and the like, and pulling the
wire off can spray solder back on you.  My soldering station had a
little fine bristled brush you used to clean the tip.  I discovered that
over time, it was spraying back molten solder in tiny little drops.  I
wear glasses in order to find my radio, so my eyes were protected but I
was surprised at how far out on the desk the solder went.  I replaced
the brush with a small wet sponge.

And, while we're at it, if you're using Pb-Sn solder, wash your hands
before doing anything with food.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org
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[daleputnam]

It seems to me that some may remember that glasses were recommended to keep the smokin rosin from coating our eyes too?
Or, that when looking close at a soldering connection, the smoke would burn a bit?
Flyin' solder was the least of our worries, making a good solid physical connection properly soldered, was of prime concideration,
and one would be proud, when the connection held up under stress....even if the stress was the result of a pair of electrolitics wired ...... in reverse. But.. that is a story for another time. But.. the solder held.

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy


 
     
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[AC7AC]

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[Vic K2VCO]

Oh boy, another thing to watch out for. I've been breathing solder fumes for so many
years...who knew?

What really should have killed me was spraying solvent from an air gun on tractors and
other machinery to get the oil and grease off. I think I still have some in my hair almost
30 years later.

Before that it was the carbon tet. We used it to clean all kinds of things. When I was a
kid I had a tube of it in my chemistry set. When my Mom's roast chicken caught fire in the
oven, I threw the contents on it to put it out. Worked great. No, she didn't let me eat
the chicken.

Of course we are not even talking about "RF exposure" like you get from climbing an AM/FM
BC tower while the station is on the air to change a bulb!

Then there was the time that the guys in the shop where I worked decided to save a bunch
of money by using asbestos pipes that they had on hand...so what if the flanges were a
little big, just chuck them in the lathe and turn them down.

Life is so safe these days I will probably live another 68 years.

On 12/19/2010 8:09 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> The rules get tighter as the years wear on. Nowadays the fumes from
> soldering are considered dangerous because there are lead oxide vapors in
> them, and inhaling too much can lead to lead poisoning.
>
> Symptoms include loss of appetite, indigestion, nausea, vomiting,
> constipation, headache, abdominal cramps, nervousness, and insomnia. Lead is
> absorbed through the mucous membranes of the lung, stomach, or intestines
> and then enters the bloodstream.
>
> Sheesh, and all these years I thought it was work causing those symptoms!
>
> Seriously, it is worth paying close attention to the toxins in our
> environment. Every year there seem to be more and more of them and the
> cumulative effect is not well understood.
>
> I don't use a ventilator hood for my route soldering, but I do position the
> work so I'm alongside it, not above it, and the fumes rise up and away from
> both the work and me.
>
> I readily handle wire solder but wash my hands as soon as I'm done.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> It seems to me that some may remember that glasses were recommended to keep
> the smokin rosin from coating our eyes too?
> Or, that when looking close at a soldering connection, the smoke would burn
> a bit?
> Flyin' solder was the least of our worries, making a good solid physical
> connection properly soldered, was of prime concideration,
> and one would be proud, when the connection held up under stress....even if
> the stress was the result of a pair of electrolitics wired ...... in
> reverse. But.. that is a story for another time. But.. the solder held.
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Phillip Lontz]

I started slinging solder when I was about ten or so... Thats 66-10.... Uh........
56 years. Knight kits... ( were they mean to built at night? )(I built them at night) i really thought there were made to be built at night... knight Kits...
Solder smells very different than it in the 50's it's more nasty now.
The sweet smell of burning rosin never bothered me. I liked it! We all knew it had lead and it was a bad idea to eat it. No one said the fumes were bad for you. (although I am sure those nasty solder makers, those evil corporation chiefs...they knew! They have always known)(just like the tobacco boys.)( Nd of course the GMO gene guys)
But like cigarettes, rosin is very addictive. One sniff and your done. Why else would you spend a lifetime breathing it in? Do they talk about it... No, that's how they "hook" us E.E,s
It happened to me.
Now we have safety features like exhaust fans, lead free solder...SMT and wave soldering. Kids today can't get hooked on rosin. But they sure have plenty of other mind bending Substances to fool with.
So do a kid a favor... get him hooked.
I am the pusher man.
And yeah...lead is toxic... But what the hell most things are.


Sent from my iPad...full of toxins and parts of Steven Jobs.
Oh and btw I have all of those symptom listed below. plus a few others which I will not mention.p
Thank God I'm rich enough to quit work.


On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The rules get tighter as the years wear on. Nowadays the fumes from
> soldering are considered dangerous because there are lead oxide vapors in
> them, and inhaling too much can lead to lead poisoning.
>
> Symptoms include loss of appetite, indigestion, nausea, vomiting,
> constipation, headache, abdominal cramps, nervousness, and insomnia. Lead is
> absorbed through the mucous membranes of the lung, stomach, or intestines
> and then enters the bloodstream.
>
> Sheesh, and all these years I thought it was work causing those symptoms!
>
> Seriously, it is worth paying close attention to the toxins in our
> environment. Every year there seem to be more and more of them and the
> cumulative effect is not well understood.
>
> I don't use a ventilator hood for my route soldering, but I do position the
> work so I'm alongside it, not above it, and the fumes rise up and away from
> both the work and me.
>
> I readily handle wire solder but wash my hands as soon as I'm done.  
>
> Ron AC7AC
> P
> -----Original Message-----
>
> It seems to me that some may remember that glasses were recommended to keep
> the smokin rosin from coating our eyes too?
> Or, that when looking close at a soldering connection, the smoke would burn
> a bit?
> Flyin' solder was the least of our worries, making a good solid physical
> connection properly soldered, was of prime concideration,
> and one would be proud, when the connection held up under stress....even if
> the stress was the result of a pair of electrolitics wired ...... in
> reverse. But.. that is a story for another time. But.. the solder held.
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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[Gary Hinson]

> > On the serious side of this, I highly recommend wearing
> glasses or safety
> > glasses when soldering.  

And one of those nostril clips that divers use.

Don't ask me how I know.  

The smell of burning flesh became noticeable after the sizzle and the yelp
subsided.

Not a patch on Phil's story tho.

73 MRX
Gary  ZL2iFB

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[K2QI]

Toxins are a good point raised, and I on more than one occasion have felt the effects of lead poisoning as you've described. I do not have ventilator hood either, but now try to work with the window open and have small desktop fan which attempts to blow most of the fumes and smoke out of that window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  

73,
James K2QI
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 20:09:02
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Soldering Naked - Toxic Effects

The rules get tighter as the years wear on. Nowadays the fumes from
soldering are considered dangerous because there are lead oxide vapors in
them, and inhaling too much can lead to lead poisoning.

Symptoms include loss of appetite, indigestion, nausea, vomiting,
constipation, headache, abdominal cramps, nervousness, and insomnia. Lead is
absorbed through the mucous membranes of the lung, stomach, or intestines
and then enters the bloodstream.

Sheesh, and all these years I thought it was work causing those symptoms!

Seriously, it is worth paying close attention to the toxins in our
environment. Every year there seem to be more and more of them and the
cumulative effect is not well understood.

I don't use a ventilator hood for my route soldering, but I do position the
work so I'm alongside it, not above it, and the fumes rise up and away from
both the work and me.

I readily handle wire solder but wash my hands as soon as I'm done.  

Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----

It seems to me that some may remember that glasses were recommended to keep
the smokin rosin from coating our eyes too?
Or, that when looking close at a soldering connection, the smoke would burn
a bit?
Flyin' solder was the least of our worries, making a good solid physical
connection properly soldered, was of prime concideration,
and one would be proud, when the connection held up under stress....even if
the stress was the result of a pair of electrolitics wired ...... in
reverse. But.. that is a story for another time. But.. the solder held.

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy


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[Milt -- N5IA]

James,

I am sure you are in violation of one or more state and federal laws.
Obviously you are polluting the neighborhood at large and the world as a
whole!!!!!!!!    :-)  :-)

Now you have incriminated yourself.  Oh well.

73, and Merry Christmas to all.

Milt, N5IA


> Toxins are a good point raised, and I on more than one occasion have felt
> the effects of lead poisoning as you've described. I do not have
> ventilator hood either, but now try to work with the window open and have
> small desktop fan which attempts to blow most of the fumes and smoke out
> of that window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
>
> 73,
> James K2QI

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[Samuel Strongin]

  Dam I should be dead by now from lead poisoning .!!
             Sam Strongin kf4yox

-----Original Message-----
From: Milt, N5IA
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:12 AM
To: [hidden email] ; Ron D'Eau Claire ; [hidden email]
; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Soldering Naked - Toxic Effects

James,

I am sure you are in violation of one or more state and federal laws.
Obviously you are polluting the neighborhood at large and the world as a
whole!!!!!!!!    :-)  :-)

Now you have incriminated yourself.  Oh well.

73, and Merry Christmas to all.

Milt, N5IA


> Toxins are a good point raised, and I on more than one occasion have felt
> the effects of lead poisoning as you've described. I do not have
> ventilator hood either, but now try to work with the window open and have
> small desktop fan which attempts to blow most of the fumes and smoke out
> of that window. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
>
> 73,
> James K2QI

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Fun thread, but time to put it to bed. :-)

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft List Moderator

On 12/20/2010 7:12 AM, Milt, N5IA wrote:

> James,
>
> I am sure you are in violation of one or more state and federal laws.
> Obviously you are polluting the neighborhood at large and the world as a
> whole!!!!!!!!    :-)  :-)
>
> Now you have incriminated yourself.  Oh well.
>
> 73, and Merry Christmas to all.
>
> Milt, N5IA

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