K3 Firmware upload

[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

I have to say it sounds like the daily, more or less,
firmware uploads execute flawlessly. Haven't seen a
negative word on the subject...

I'm wondering what the process involves. Is it similar
to say the Ten Tec Pegasus or AmQRP micro908 uploads?

Would it require a direct connection to the web or
could you download the upgrade (like N1MM) and install
it via any computer connected to the rig?

73,
Julius
n2wn
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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

> I have to say it sounds like the daily, more or less,
> firmware uploads execute flawlessly. Haven't seen a negative
> word on the subject...

It does work smoothly and effortlessly.  When I see a new MCU or DSP
firmware file on the share (or, the firmware team announces such), I
download to the K3 with a couple clicks and 2-3 minutes of time.

> I'm wondering what the process involves. Is it similar to say
> the Ten Tec Pegasus or AmQRP micro908 uploads?

It is most similar to the Windows Update mechanism.  It uses the same RS232
cable connecting your K3 to your PC for rig control.

> Would it require a direct connection to the web or could you
> download the upgrade (like N1MM) and install it via any
> computer connected to the rig?

The PC interfaces to the K3 also needs an Internet connection.  The K3 Field
Test shared server is live all the time and updates the local K3 folder on
your PC when any files are added to the share, e.g., new firmware,
documentation, etc.  You open the K3 Firmware Loader application (or, leave
it open) and it shows you what revision firmware in currently installed in
your K3 vs. what the latest version is available on the server.  If you want
to download, simply click the 'Download' button, wait 2-3 minutes and that's
it.

Future versions might work differently, e.g., even more automated like
Windows Update, if you prefer, or more traditional methods for those without
Internet connections, e.g., CD-ROM from the factory.

73,
Ed - W0YK

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[AJSOENKE]

This brings up an interesting question in my  mind.  I have noticed in many
flash upgrades for computer bios that the  upgrades often involve changes that
I would not necessarily want to make to the  BIOS. Some manufacturers would
require (force) the change if you wanted to  install any version of the flash
BIOS - not allow you to skip versions.  

Will the K3 version changes support retrograde installation ( I would  
imagine that is supported by a clean refresh ) will version  .x3  automatically
include version .x2 if you are currently running .x1? Or, will  there be any
selective process that will allow the operator to not install some  changes?  If my
guess is not too far off, all versions will be sequential  and any "opt out"
would require turning a feature 'off' or 'on' manually after  the version
upgrade.

AL WA6VNN  




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[Julian, G4ILO]

On 7/25/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This brings up an interesting question in my  mind.  I have noticed in many
> flash upgrades for computer bios that the  upgrades often involve changes that
> I would not necessarily want to make to the  BIOS. Some manufacturers would
> require (force) the change if you wanted to  install any version of the flash
> BIOS - not allow you to skip versions.

Most manufacturers recommend that you don't upgrade a BIOS unless you
actually need to, because there's a small risk that if something goes
wrong during the update (like your PC crashes or there's a power
failure) the BIOS becomes unusable and you can't restart the update.
Does the K3 have a non-programmable boot loader that cannot be
overwritten so that it is always able to receive an update no matter
what goes wrong? Or would a power hiccup mean a dead radio that would
have to be shipped back to Elecraft?
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
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[KK7P]

> Does the K3 have a non-programmable boot loader that cannot be
> overwritten so that it is always able to receive an update no matter
> what goes wrong?

The MCU has a protected memory space where the bootloader resides, so if
power drops or other untoward events occur, you should be able to reload
the firmware in the radio after the event has passed.

Put another way, the update process for firmware does *not* overwrite
the bootloader.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[dj7mgq]

Hallo,

Not sure if this is dealt with in the FAQ.

 > The PC interfaces to the K3 also needs an Internet connection.

Does PC mean Windows, or are other operating systems supported? Which
Windows versions are supported?

If the protocols are available, a loader could be programmed using Mono,
DotGNU Portable.NET or Python which should be able to work well with
various systems.

vy 73 de toby

PS:
http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
http://www.gnu.org/software/dotgnu/

--
DD5FZ, 4N6FZ (ex dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #??? (< #200)
DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG
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[KK7P]

> Will the K3 version changes support retrograde installation ( I would  
> imagine that is supported by a clean refresh ) will version  .x3  automatically
> include version .x2 if you are currently running .x1?

The K3 is not a general purpose computer, so it doesn't have all sorts
of DLLs, OS service packs, and other frustrating dependencies.  The MCU
code, which runs the radio, is a single block of code, complete in itself.

Similarly, the DSP code is a single block of code, complete in itself.

All you need to do, if you do not want to use the current version, is
ensure that the DSP and MCU code you choose to load are compatible with
each other.  You probably would not want to run this year's DSP with a
two year old MCU load, for example... or maybe you would? :-)

Lyle

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[KK7P]

>  > The PC interfaces to the K3 also needs an Internet connection.
>
> Does PC mean Windows, or are other operating systems supported? Which
> Windows versions are supported?

More specifically, the program which updates the K3 needs access to the
updated files.  If the computer that is used to update the K3 is also on
the Internet, then the process is very simple - the program
automatically looks in the right place on the 'net.

If not, you have to copy the files from the 'net -- or wherever else
they may be found -- to the computer that will be used to update the K3.

The *current* version of the update application requires Windows XP with
.NET 2.0.  This has been the standard distribution of Windows since
2001, and is still an available distribution.  .NET 2.0 is available for
free from Microsoft via their website and is already loaded on a very
large percentage of Windows XP computers already.

This was the most expedient way to get the update application written
and deployed to the development team and field testers.  Support is
planned for other Windows versions, as well as other OSes, but right now
the engineering effort is going into making the K3 better.

However, I doubt there will ever be a version for my Acorn RISC PC
running RISCOS 3.70...

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[dj7mgq]

Hi Lyle,

> The *current* version of the update application requires Windows XP with
> .NET 2.0.  This has been the standard distribution of Windows since

This sounds good. Mono, a .Net implementation, runs under Linux and MAC
OS-X among others. Porting from the Microsoft framework should be fairly
easy, I would think.

> However, I doubt there will ever be a version for my Acorn RISC PC
> running RISCOS 3.70...

Ah an Acorn fan... They were/are fun machines.


vy 73 de toby
--
DD5FZ, 4N6FZ (ex dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #??? (< #200)
DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG
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[n6wg]

My internet connection is on my main computer in my
workroom in the house, and my K2 (to be a K3 eventually)
is in my station out in the garage, connected to an older
DOS computer running TRLOG.  Are the update files small
enough to be copied to a floppy disk and moved to the DOS
computer?  Is any specific program needed to download the
new data into the K3?  Is it Windows specific?

It sounds like I may need to bring the K3 into the house to
download upgrades whenever they are needed.
Thanks and 73
Bob N6WG

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Edward (Ed) Muns" <[hidden email]>
To: "'J F'" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "'Elecraft Discussion List'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Firmware upload

> > I have to say it sounds like the daily, more or less,
> > firmware uploads execute flawlessly. Haven't seen a negative
> > word on the subject...
>
> It does work smoothly and effortlessly.  When I see a new MCU or DSP
> firmware file on the share (or, the firmware team announces such), I
> download to the K3 with a couple clicks and 2-3 minutes of time.
>
> > I'm wondering what the process involves. Is it similar to say
> > the Ten Tec Pegasus or AmQRP micro908 uploads?
>
> It is most similar to the Windows Update mechanism.  It uses the same

RS232
> cable connecting your K3 to your PC for rig control.
>
> > Would it require a direct connection to the web or could you
> > download the upgrade (like N1MM) and install it via any
> > computer connected to the rig?
>
> The PC interfaces to the K3 also needs an Internet connection.  The K3
Field
> Test shared server is live all the time and updates the local K3 folder on
> your PC when any files are added to the share, e.g., new firmware,
> documentation, etc.  You open the K3 Firmware Loader application (or,
leave
> it open) and it shows you what revision firmware in currently installed in
> your K3 vs. what the latest version is available on the server.  If you
want
> to download, simply click the 'Download' button, wait 2-3 minutes and
that's
> it.
>
> Future versions might work differently, e.g., even more automated like
> Windows Update, if you prefer, or more traditional methods for those
without

> Internet connections, e.g., CD-ROM from the factory.
>
> 73,
> Ed - W0YK
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
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[David Fleming-2]

Bob, you have made a very good point. There are a
great many folks out there with older machines. Many
are still using dial-up internet access. Using the
.NET framework for a relatively simple application
like this would be superfluous. Downloading the .NET
framework would be a major problem for many. A small
executable that can be quickly and easily downloaded
is key.

-David, W4SMT

--- Robert Tellefsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My internet connection is on my main computer in my
> workroom in the house, and my K2 (to be a K3
> eventually)
> is in my station out in the garage, connected to an
> older
> DOS computer running TRLOG.  Are the update files
> small
> enough to be copied to a floppy disk and moved to
> the DOS
> computer?  Is any specific program needed to
> download the
> new data into the K3?  Is it Windows specific?
>
> It sounds like I may need to bring the K3 into the
> house to
> download upgrades whenever they are needed.
> Thanks and 73
> Bob N6WG
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J. Edward (Ed) Muns" <[hidden email]>
> To: "'J F'" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "'Elecraft Discussion List'"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:50 AM
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Firmware upload
>
>
> > > I have to say it sounds like the daily, more or
> less,
> > > firmware uploads execute flawlessly. Haven't
> seen a negative
> > > word on the subject...
> >
> > It does work smoothly and effortlessly.  When I
> see a new MCU or DSP
> > firmware file on the share (or, the firmware team
> announces such), I
> > download to the K3 with a couple clicks and 2-3
> minutes of time.
> >
> > > I'm wondering what the process involves. Is it
> similar to say
> > > the Ten Tec Pegasus or AmQRP micro908 uploads?
> >
> > It is most similar to the Windows Update
> mechanism.  It uses the same
> RS232
> > cable connecting your K3 to your PC for rig
> control.
> >
> > > Would it require a direct connection to the web
> or could you
> > > download the upgrade (like N1MM) and install it
> via any
> > > computer connected to the rig?
> >
> > The PC interfaces to the K3 also needs an Internet
> connection.  The K3
> Field
> > Test shared server is live all the time and
> updates the local K3 folder on
> > your PC when any files are added to the share,
> e.g., new firmware,
> > documentation, etc.  You open the K3 Firmware
> Loader application (or,
> leave
> > it open) and it shows you what revision firmware
> in currently installed in
> > your K3 vs. what the latest version is available
> on the server.  If you
> want
> > to download, simply click the 'Download' button,
> wait 2-3 minutes and
> that's
> > it.
> >
> > Future versions might work differently, e.g., even
> more automated like
> > Windows Update, if you prefer, or more traditional
> methods for those
> without
> > Internet connections, e.g., CD-ROM from the
> factory.
> >
> > 73,
> > Ed - W0YK
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
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>

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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

> My internet connection is on my main computer in my workroom
> in the house, and my K2 (to be a K3 eventually) is in my
> station out in the garage, connected to an older DOS computer
> running TRLOG.  Are the update files small enough to be
> copied to a floppy disk and moved to the DOS computer?  Is
> any specific program needed to download the new data into the
> K3?  Is it Windows specific?

All of this has been discussed and additional alternatives are being
considered for cases like yours where (1) a non-Windows CPU, and/or (2) no
Internet connection is (are) available at the K3.

> It sounds like I may need to bring the K3 into the house to
> download upgrades whenever they are needed.

That's certainly an alternative, but there may be better solutions available
for you.

73,
Ed - W0YK

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[David Woolley (E.L)]

J. Edward (Ed) Muns wrote:
> your K3 vs. what the latest version is available on the server.  If you want
> to download, simply click the 'Download' button, wait 2-3 minutes and that's
> it.

This thread concerns me. The download mechanism seems seriously
over-engineered and to have built in obsolescence.

Whilst one might provide more user friendly wrappers for the upload
protocol, I can see no sound reason why it should not have been designed
so that one can upload updates using almost any off the shelf terminal
emulator program, preferably as simply as a straight dump of an Intel
hex file to the K3.

By forcing people to use a Windows application, Elecraft are requiring
the use of a specific brand of software and the use of hardware that is
orders of magnitude more powerful than actually needed to do the job,
when the former should never be a requirement for using the K3 and the
latter is not a requirement.

The built in obsolescence arises because the Microsoft revenue
generation model depends on forcing people to continually update
software to stand still.  This tends to mean that any Windows dependent
software must be regularly updated.

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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

This thread has gone on too long and information previously provided is
being lost in subsequent posts.  Elecraft is well aware of the varying needs
of its customers for easy updating of K3 firmware.  The current method being
used in Field Test may or may not be ONE of the methods available to
customers.  Under consideration are a number of different options from which
a customer can choose what works best for his individual situation.  The
important point is that the K3 firmware is very easily updated, regardless
of which method is used.  Stay tuned for more information on the actual
customer updating options when Elecraft is able to provide it.

73,
Ed - W0YK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Woolley
> Sent: Thursday, 26 July, 2007 14:42
> To: 'Elecraft Discussion List'
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Firmware upload
>
> J. Edward (Ed) Muns wrote:
> > your K3 vs. what the latest version is available on the server.  If
> > you want to download, simply click the 'Download' button, wait 2-3
> > minutes and that's it.
>
> This thread concerns me. The download mechanism seems
> seriously over-engineered and to have built in obsolescence.
>
> Whilst one might provide more user friendly wrappers for the
> upload protocol, I can see no sound reason why it should not
> have been designed so that one can upload updates using
> almost any off the shelf terminal emulator program,
> preferably as simply as a straight dump of an Intel hex file
> to the K3.
>
> By forcing people to use a Windows application, Elecraft are
> requiring the use of a specific brand of software and the use
> of hardware that is orders of magnitude more powerful than
> actually needed to do the job, when the former should never
> be a requirement for using the K3 and the latter is not a requirement.
>
> The built in obsolescence arises because the Microsoft
> revenue generation model depends on forcing people to
> continually update software to stand still.  This tends to
> mean that any Windows dependent software must be regularly updated.
>
> _______________________________________________
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[AJSOENKE]

Don't lose sight of the original intent of the  system as originally
explained. It was for the Developers and the Beta Testers  to have a readily available
method of staying in sync with each other.   From what I have read I don't
see any indication that by the time we need an  update we won't have a plethora
of options.

Also, we are all behaving as  though Elecraft won't be able to deliver a
product without our having a way to  upgrade it before the shipping container is
separated from the  contents.

BTW,  with all the clamor to get the technologically  newest rig it amazes me
that there is such a debate on the cheapest and least  technologically
advanced way to acquire upgrade data. I'm sure the rigs will  work while we wait for
a delivery in the mail if we must  ;) ( PS I've  wasted many more hours
chasing drivers for linux software than any other system  I've used in 51 years of
computing - Royal-McBee LGP-30 grad)

Al WA6VNN  




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