[K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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[K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
 
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Hi all,
I realize that this is tangentially related to Elecraft gear since I'm using a K3 and experiencing this issue, but I thought someone else may have some knowledge to share with me to help me solve my problem. Recently I stopped using a 25' long extension cord to power my computer, power supply, and other accessories and installed a 2 gang box directly off of the main electrical panel, where my shack happens to be (in the basement). While our basement is waterproofed, it still has a concrete floor, which "requires" a GFI outlet (according to my electrician). To do my due diligence, I installed one GFI in the 2 gang box and 1 regular 3-prong grounded outlet. I have my shack computer, my power supply, and my transformer for my SGC SG-231 autotuner plugged into this. Last night I tuned up (15W) 20m and was hoping to work some DX. My SWR showed <2.0:1 on my SWR meter and on the K3. All is good. When I keyed down with 100W, the GFI tripped and my shack computer, power supply, etc. shut off. I'm using Leviton smartlockpro 20A GFCI outlets from Home Depot. They're not "cheap", but maybe they don't have adequate RFI protection (obviously). I suppose the first solution is to remove the GFI from the situation, but I thought using it was the "right thing to do". Any personal anecdotes or advice would be welcome. Thanks! -john W4PAH Madison, WI ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hi John,
Yes they can be sensitive but that's the beauty of Home Depot. Return it to the store and try another brand. Or better yet, take it out, replace it with a regular receptacle and save it for when you sell the house. 73, Mike K2MK
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Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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Code requirements are there for a reason and are only put in place
after much thought and discussion. I would take the GFI out only as a last resort. Also RF is not necessarily the problem. I had one unit that would trip every time I turned a large 21" CRT monitor on. Changed brands and all was OK. Mikes suggestion to try another unit or brand is sound. If that doesn't work then instead of going without GEI I would look at the station installation and how units are bonded and grounded. If there is RF in the shack cure it. Also make sure the wiring was done properly. Eliminating the GFI does not solve the problem, it only masks the symptom. David K0LUM At 6:42 AM -0700 7/28/12, Mike K2MK wrote: >Hi John, > >Yes they can be sensitive but that's the beauty of Home Depot. Return it to >the store and try another brand. Or better yet, take it out, replace it with >a regular receptacle and save it for when you sell the house. > >73, >Mike K2MK > > > >John Shadle wrote >> >> Hi all, >> I realize that this is tangentially related to Elecraft gear since I'm >> using a K3 and experiencing this issue, but I thought someone else may >> have some knowledge to share with me to help me solve my problem. >> >> Recently I stopped using a 25' long extension cord to power my >> computer, power supply, and other accessories and installed a 2 gang >> box directly off of the main electrical panel, where my shack happens >> to be (in the basement). While our basement is waterproofed, it still >> has a concrete floor, which "requires" a GFI outlet (according to my >> electrician). To do my due diligence, I installed one GFI in the 2 >> gang box and 1 regular 3-prong grounded outlet. I have my shack >> computer, my power supply, and my transformer for my SGC SG-231 >> autotuner plugged into this. >> >> Last night I tuned up (15W) 20m and was hoping to work some DX. My SWR >> showed <2.0:1 on my SWR meter and on the K3. All is good. When I keyed >> down with 100W, the GFI tripped and my shack computer, power supply, >> etc. shut off. >> >> I'm using Leviton smartlockpro 20A GFCI outlets from Home Depot. >> They're not "cheap", but maybe they don't have adequate RFI protection >> (obviously). >> >> I suppose the first solution is to remove the GFI from the situation, >> but I thought using it was the "right thing to do". Any personal >> anecdotes or advice would be welcome. >> >> Thanks! >> -john W4PAH > > Madison, WI >> Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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In reply to this post by John Shadle
You could also try moving the GFCI to the panel box by installing a GFCI breaker in the panel box and replacing the GFCI outlet with a normal one. This might solve the problem by increasing the distance between the RFI source and the breaker. Also the shielding provided by the panel box may help.
Of course this assumes you do not have anything on the circuit which you would not want GFCI for (like lights, smoke detectors etc.) Lou W2ROW
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Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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In reply to this post by John Shadle
On 7/28/2012 5:59 AM, John Shadle wrote:
> I'm using Leviton smartlockpro 20A GFCI outlets from Home Depot. > They're not "cheap", but maybe they don't have adequate RFI protection > (obviously). > > I suppose the first solution is to remove the GFI from the situation, > but I thought using it was the "right thing to do". Any personal > anecdotes or advice would be welcome. The first thing that I would check is the "green ground", i.e. the grounding wire. For something like this, it should go directly to the ground bus inside the entrance panel, not tied in with any other "green ground". Are you using metal conduit / "Thinwall" or PVC? If metal, check the grounding. They make "hubs" that have a screw terminal for just that purpose. Second, make sure that your station equipment is bonded to each other and grounded to a common ground that is bonded to the "house" ground. This is important both for RFI reduction and for safety. If that doesn't alleviate the problem, contact the Leviton technical assistance folks. This may be a known problem and they may have a "fix" for that model of GFCI, or s others have said, try a different brand or convert the circuit breaker to a GFCI type - maybe the best bet. Hard to diagnose this at long distance. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane (PE - Electrical) Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 VP - Engineering and General Counsel CSI Telecommunications, Inc. Consulting Engineers >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by John Shadle
We have this same problem every year using my RV for field day. The GFI's
in the RV control nearly every outlet. 100 watts to a nearby antenna, and the GFI's trip nearly every outlet. For this last June, I wired a special circuit to the main panel to give the operating position it's own GFI-free outlet. End of problems. Turns out the GFI's are a special kind, designed just for walls in RV's, and you're pretty much stuck with what you have. 73, Guy. On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 8:59 AM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi all, > I realize that this is tangentially related to Elecraft gear since I'm > using a K3 and experiencing this issue, but I thought someone else may > have some knowledge to share with me to help me solve my problem. > > Recently I stopped using a 25' long extension cord to power my > computer, power supply, and other accessories and installed a 2 gang > box directly off of the main electrical panel, where my shack happens > to be (in the basement). While our basement is waterproofed, it still > has a concrete floor, which "requires" a GFI outlet (according to my > electrician). To do my due diligence, I installed one GFI in the 2 > gang box and 1 regular 3-prong grounded outlet. I have my shack > computer, my power supply, and my transformer for my SGC SG-231 > autotuner plugged into this. > > Last night I tuned up (15W) 20m and was hoping to work some DX. My SWR > showed <2.0:1 on my SWR meter and on the K3. All is good. When I keyed > down with 100W, the GFI tripped and my shack computer, power supply, > etc. shut off. > > I'm using Leviton smartlockpro 20A GFCI outlets from Home Depot. > They're not "cheap", but maybe they don't have adequate RFI protection > (obviously). > > I suppose the first solution is to remove the GFI from the situation, > but I thought using it was the "right thing to do". Any personal > anecdotes or advice would be welcome. > > Thanks! > -john W4PAH > Madison, WI > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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In reply to this post by David Christ
On 7/28/2012 7:05 AM, David Christ wrote:
> Code requirements are there for a reason and are only put in place > after much thought and discussion. Absolutely. The engineers who write electrical codes are very smart, and engineers from many disciplines are part of the process. GFCIs are required because they make it SAFE -- people get KILLED by leakage currents. GFCIs detect the presence of leakage currents and disconnect power from the outlet if there is enough to hurt us. . > I would take the GFI out only as > a last resort. Also RF is not necessarily the problem. I had one > unit that would trip every time I turned a large 21" CRT monitor on. > Changed brands and all was OK. Agreed here too. A GFCI in the loft bathroom in the house I owned in Chicago was only about 15 ft from the dipole into which I transmitted 1.5kW, and it was prone to trip. I replaced it with another unit of the same type from the same mfr and that fixed the problem. I had installed them myself when I renovated the house, and I had some left over. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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Well I'm one of those so called "Smart" engineers that write the code, and I
can tell you that, while some of the things we turn into code sound good, they are hardly practical or work in real life. While GFCI outlets are a good idea and have saved countless lives because the implementation of the technology was proper, devices like arc-fault circuit breakers and tamper resistant receptacles have been a disaster for: 1) understanding where the technology should be deployed, and 2) implementing the technology properly. I blame this on us, the people writing the detail, but in some cases without any field understanding and experience. Sometimes I look around the table and all I see is dummies! If you are betting on these people to save you from electrical disaster, you're in big trouble! (nb. The arc faults trip on incoming arcs too... so any arc on your local drop trip them, and countless people have been hurt by breaking tamper resistant receptacles, forcing a plug into it because it won't open). Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ Owner - Operator Big Signal Ranch Staunton, Illinois email: [hidden email] -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:35 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?) On 7/28/2012 7:05 AM, David Christ wrote: > Code requirements are there for a reason and are only put in place > after much thought and discussion. Absolutely. The engineers who write electrical codes are very smart, and engineers from many disciplines are part of the process. GFCIs are required because they make it SAFE -- people get KILLED by leakage currents. GFCIs detect the presence of leakage currents and disconnect power from the outlet if there is enough to hurt us. . > I would take the GFI out only as > a last resort. Also RF is not necessarily the problem. I had one > unit that would trip every time I turned a large 21" CRT monitor on. > Changed brands and all was OK. Agreed here too. A GFCI in the loft bathroom in the house I owned in Chicago was only about 15 ft from the dipole into which I transmitted 1.5kW, and it was prone to trip. I replaced it with another unit of the same type from the same mfr and that fixed the problem. I had installed them myself when I renovated the house, and I had some left over. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5161 - Release Date: 07/28/12 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2
Phil, K2ASP said:
"... make sure that your station equipment is bonded to each other and grounded to a common ground that is bonded to the "house" ground." Each component of my entire station is bonded to a common point at the bulkhead to the shack via 1 3/8" wide copper straps. The bulkhead point is connected to an extensive ground field: 5 ground rods tied together in a ~5' radius arc with ~6-8 ga solid copper wire. All coax braid is connected to the bulkhead. The system also includes ground rods at the base of each tower and vertical. The house ground at the service entry point is a single rod with stranded ~8 ga into the house. The house ground and shack/antenna grounds are not directly connected except through grounded outlets, etc. At what point / where should the two be more robustly joined? 73 James / K1SD / Rhode Island -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Kane Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:44 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?) On 7/28/2012 5:59 AM, John Shadle wrote: > I'm using Leviton smartlockpro 20A GFCI outlets from Home Depot. > They're not "cheap", but maybe they don't have adequate RFI protection > (obviously). > > I suppose the first solution is to remove the GFI from the situation, > but I thought using it was the "right thing to do". Any personal > anecdotes or advice would be welcome. The first thing that I would check is the "green ground", i.e. the grounding wire. For something like this, it should go directly to the ground bus inside the entrance panel, not tied in with any other "green ground". Are you using metal conduit / "Thinwall" or PVC? If metal, check the grounding. They make "hubs" that have a screw terminal for just that purpose. Second, make sure that your station equipment is bonded to each other and grounded to a common ground that is bonded to the "house" ground. This is important both for RFI reduction and for safety. If that doesn't alleviate the problem, contact the Leviton technical assistance folks. This may be a known problem and they may have a "fix" for that model of GFCI, or s others have said, try a different brand or convert the circuit breaker to a GFCI type - maybe the best bet. Hard to diagnose this at long distance. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane (PE - Electrical) Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 VP - Engineering and General Counsel CSI Telecommunications, Inc. Consulting Engineers >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: [K3] GFI outlet, 100W on 20m, and *poof* (RFI?)
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James,
My understanding is that the station ground system and house service grounds should be connected, preferably very close to the service ground rod. I am down in Peace Dale (Wakefield), RI, if you want to come see my ground system. Brian, K1NW
Brian, op K1NW
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In reply to this post by James Setzler
On 8/6/2012 4:03 PM, James wrote:
> At what point / where should the two be more robustly joined? In general, MORE and SHORTER bonding paths are better. It is also best to make keep the shortest bonding path outside the house if that is practical. The rule is that we can have as many earth connections as we like, more is better, but ALL grounds must be bonded together. That includes power, antenna entry, ham shack operating desk, telephone entrance (the lightning protector), cable TV entry, satellite, lightning rods, etc. And, of course, the "green wire" in every AC outlet should be carried through to every equipment chassis, and there should be a bond between every chassis, and that combination of bonds is the "shack" ground. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Wow! RSGB has really run off the rails with this document in several
VERY critical ways. Look at the date of publication of this mess. Was it April 1? First, it totally misses the fact that the primary reason for a connection to the SOIL is LIGHTNING PROTECTION. Second, it mostly addresses BONDING related to the power system, and except for Paragraphs 10,11, and 13, it is quite good. Third, the TT system is not described in sufficient detail to clarify WHY one would want to use it, and I certainly would not because it does NOTHING for lightning protection. Fourth, no matter WHAT system is used, including TT, it is critical that all of those items listed in the regulations around Paragraph 7 be bonded for lightning safety. Fifth, the issue raised in Paragraph 11 is damage caused by a Pin One Problem (see my website), and safe power systems practice should NEVER be compromised to solve these issues. Sixth, there is nothing in this document that says that any "earths" (grounds) must be separated -- indeed, those regulations cited around Paragraph 7 say exactly the opposite. More important, the Laws of Physics say that to separate grounds is an invitation to someone being killed, a fire starting, or severe damage from a lightning strike. Seventh, Paragraph 13, which suggests that it is OK for antennas to not be bonded to earth is incredible folly. Eighth, the fact that you read this and think that grounds (earths) should be separated indicates a serious defect either in their writing or your reading. For a tutorial with a far more solid engineering basis, I suggest you study my White Paper on Power and Grounding, which includes power systems around the world. While specifically written for audio and video system professionals, the Laws of Physics that govern lightning safety and power system safety are independent of national borders. http://audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf 73, Jim Brown K9YC On 8/13/2012 9:23 AM, David Cutter wrote: > I've come in rather late on this, Jim, but here in the UK (and > possibly other Eu) the two "earths" must be separated. If you feel > like a read, here is the advice from the RSGB. > > http://www.rsgb.org/emc/docs/pdf/leaflets/emc-leaflet-07.pdf > > 73 > David > G3UNA ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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