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[K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

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Alan - G4GNX

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.

I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might
be the way to go. :-)

73,

Alan. G4GNX

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Coleman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Alan - G4GNX" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 14/10/2020 13:39:06
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

>I was not seeing any SWR shifts on this antenna. A check with an ohmmeter shows no shorts.
>This antenna is currently on the ground due to other work on the tower. I’m considering replacing the antenna entirely. It’s been up over 10 years, and the traps could use re-work.
>

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Jim Brown-10

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

On 10/14/2020 6:19 AM, Alan - G4GNX wrote:
> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
> the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
> see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.

Here's an example of where the word "balun" blows up our thinking about
problem solving. The "balun" you're describing is a transformer,
sometimes called a voltage balun. Other things commonly called a "balun"
are a common mode choke, which should look like an open circuit at both
DC and RF.

The word "balun" should be eliminated from our use. I know of at least
ten very different things that are called a "balun."

73, Jim K9YC
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Alan - G4GNX

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

Jim. I agree about the MISS-use of the word balun. As the word is
actually supposed to represent a balanced to unbalanced TRANSFORMER, I
have used it in its correct sense.

If I had meant common mode choke, I would have said so.

If the OP is not using a balun in the true sense of the word, then he
should say so.

Sorry, but I can't be held responsible for others' misuse of the terms.

I don't see why the word "balun" should be eliminated. That's like
saying the word "resistor" should be eliminated because I actually mean
to describe a capacitor, but can't be bothered to learn the correct
terminology. :-)

73,

Alan. G4GNX

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 14/10/2020 17:57:31
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

>On 10/14/2020 6:19 AM, Alan - G4GNX wrote:
>>I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>
>Here's an example of where the word "balun" blows up our thinking about problem solving. The "balun" you're describing is a transformer, sometimes called a voltage balun. Other things commonly called a "balun" are a common mode choke, which should look like an open circuit at both DC and RF.
>
>The word "balun" should be eliminated from our use. I know of at least ten very different things that are called a "balun."
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>

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john@kk9a.com

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by Bill Coleman-2

AA4LR is using #43 ferrite beads on RG-313 coax. I am not sure what
RG-313 is however there should be no ohm meter short unless he is
using a hairpin match. Perhaps there is a flaky connection somewhere
in his system. I had a lot of RF feedback problems with my K3S when
using a corroded station in the Caribbean but no current warnings.

John KK9A

Alan - G4GNX wrote:

I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.

I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might
be the way to go. :-)

73,

Alan. G4GNX

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Bill Coleman-2

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by Alan - G4GNX

It’s a current (choke) 1:1 balun. Ferrite beads over coax. There are no turns, there is no primary.

> On Oct 14, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Alan - G4GNX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>
> I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might be the way to go. :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Bill Coleman" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Alan - G4GNX" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 14/10/2020 13:39:06
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m
>
>> I was not seeing any SWR shifts on this antenna. A check with an ohmmeter shows no shorts.
>> This antenna is currently on the ground due to other work on the tower. I’m considering replacing the antenna entirely. It’s been up over 10 years, and the traps could use re-work.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email]
Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
-- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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Alan - G4GNX

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Not wishing to pick a fight, but he said that he is using a balun rated
at 1KW.

What you describe is a common mode choke and as I'm sure you know, that
is not a transformer which is what I described.

I can see Jim's frustration. Folks really need to get to grips and
properly understand the terms they are using, otherwise we get into
meaningless arguments and false advice.

RG213 is a commonly used co-axial cable:
https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg213-coaxial-cable

73,

Alan. G4GNX

------ Original Message ------
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 14/10/2020 18:17:00
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

>AA4LR is using #43 ferrite beads on RG-313 coax. I am not sure what RG-313 is however there should be no ohm meter short unless he is using a hairpin match. Perhaps there is a flaky connection somewhere in his system. I had a lot of RF feedback problems with my K3S when using a corroded station in the Caribbean but no current warnings.
>
>John KK9A
>
>
>
>Alan - G4GNX wrote:
>
>
>I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
>the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
>see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>
>I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might
>be the way to go. :-)
>
>73,
>
>Alan. G4GNX
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Bill Coleman-2

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Isn’t the name apt, though?

A feedpoint choke like this does manage the interface from the unbalanced coax to the balanced antenna by inhibiting the flow of common-mode currents. Hence, Bal-Un.

Agree that the term is insufficiently descriptive.

> On Oct 14, 2020, at 12:57 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 10/14/2020 6:19 AM, Alan - G4GNX wrote:
>> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>
> Here's an example of where the word "balun" blows up our thinking about problem solving. The "balun" you're describing is a transformer, sometimes called a voltage balun. Other things commonly called a "balun" are a common mode choke, which should look like an open circuit at both DC and RF.
>
> The word "balun" should be eliminated from our use. I know of at least ten very different things that are called a "balun."
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bill Coleman-2

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

I’ve had other problems with this antenna when the 17m traps broke down about three years ago.

Looking back at my station notes, I’m wrong. It wasn’t RG-313, it was RG-303. Sorry for the error. This is a small diameter (0.170”) coax with a solid teflon dielectric.

> On Oct 14, 2020, at 1:17 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> AA4LR is using #43 ferrite beads on RG-313 coax. I am not sure what RG-313 is however there should be no ohm meter short unless he is using a hairpin match. Perhaps there is a flaky connection somewhere in his system. I had a lot of RF feedback problems with my K3S when using a corroded station in the Caribbean but no current warnings.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
>
> Alan - G4GNX wrote:
>
>
> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
> the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
> see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>
> I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might
> be the way to go. :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bill Coleman-2

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by Alan - G4GNX

In this case, it wasn’t RG-213, but RG-303. The author regrets the error.

> On Oct 14, 2020, at 1:45 PM, Alan - G4GNX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not wishing to pick a fight, but he said that he is using a balun rated at 1KW.
>
> What you describe is a common mode choke and as I'm sure you know, that is not a transformer which is what I described.
>
> I can see Jim's frustration. Folks really need to get to grips and properly understand the terms they are using, otherwise we get into meaningless arguments and false advice.
>
> RG213 is a commonly used co-axial cable: https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg213-coaxial-cable
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: 14/10/2020 18:17:00
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m
>
>> AA4LR is using #43 ferrite beads on RG-313 coax. I am not sure what RG-313 is however there should be no ohm meter short unless he is using a hairpin match. Perhaps there is a flaky connection somewhere in his system. I had a lot of RF feedback problems with my K3S when using a corroded station in the Caribbean but no current warnings.
>>
>> John KK9A
>>
>>
>>
>> Alan - G4GNX wrote:
>>
>>
>> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
>> the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
>> see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>>
>> I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might
>> be the way to go. :-)
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Alan. G4GNX
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Alan - G4GNX

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by Bill Coleman-2

Sorry to pick you up on this Bill, but you've been rather misleading on
your description. A current choke (common mode choke) is not even 1:1 as
in a transformer, there is no ratio, primary to secondary. You rightly
say that you're using a CHOKE which is NOT a balun "balanced to
unbalanced transformer".

In the light of that, I apologise. My information regarding a balun is
useless to you. Sorry to have wasted your time.

BTW I also don't understand where the 1KW rating came from.

73,

Alan. G4GNX

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Coleman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Alan - G4GNX" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 14/10/2020 18:45:11
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

>It’s a current (choke) 1:1 balun. Ferrite beads over coax. There are no turns, there is no primary.
>
>> On Oct 14, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Alan - G4GNX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>>
>> I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might be the way to go. :-)
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Alan. G4GNX
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Bill Coleman" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Alan - G4GNX" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: 14/10/2020 13:39:06
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m
>>
>>> I was not seeing any SWR shifts on this antenna. A check with an ohmmeter shows no shorts.
>>> This antenna is currently on the ground due to other work on the tower. I’m considering replacing the antenna entirely. It’s been up over 10 years, and the traps could use re-work.
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email]
>Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com
>Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
> -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
>

Alan - G4GNX

Re: [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

In reply to this post by Bill Coleman-2

No sweat Bill. Sh*t happens. :-D

73,

Alan. G4GNX

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Coleman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Alan - G4GNX" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 14/10/2020 18:55:01
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m

>In this case, it wasn’t RG-213, but RG-303. The author regrets the error.
>
>> On Oct 14, 2020, at 1:45 PM, Alan - G4GNX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not wishing to pick a fight, but he said that he is using a balun rated at 1KW.
>>
>> What you describe is a common mode choke and as I'm sure you know, that is not a transformer which is what I described.
>>
>> I can see Jim's frustration. Folks really need to get to grips and properly understand the terms they are using, otherwise we get into meaningless arguments and false advice.
>>
>> RG213 is a commonly used co-axial cable: https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg213-coaxial-cable
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Alan. G4GNX
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: 14/10/2020 18:17:00
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Issue with HI CUR on 12m
>>
>>> AA4LR is using #43 ferrite beads on RG-313 coax. I am not sure what RG-313 is however there should be no ohm meter short unless he is using a hairpin match. Perhaps there is a flaky connection somewhere in his system. I had a lot of RF feedback problems with my K3S when using a corroded station in the Caribbean but no current warnings.
>>>
>>> John KK9A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alan - G4GNX wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I presume that you disconnected the feeder from the balun when you did
>>> the DC Ohms test? If not, there is something wrong because you should
>>> see almost a dead (DC) short through the primary of the balun.
>>>
>>> I must admit I put off replacing my antenna until I was forced to. Might
>>> be the way to go. :-)
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Alan. G4GNX
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email]
>Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com
>Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
> -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
>