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[K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

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W5UXH

[K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

Apparently my mailman subscription disappeared, so this is a second attempt to get this query out there:

Can anyone comment on the performance of the remote rig setup for higher speed CW? If I use a keyboard keyer on the K3/0 end and CW+ QRQ mode, other than the latency that of course is network dependent, can I expect the performance to be close to that when operating the K3 directly?

On the K3/0 end I assume I would hear a local sidetone from the K3/0 and there would not be a sidetone coming back from the remote end? Can I expect the keying quality from the remote K3 to be the same as when operating the K3 directly?

I would really like to hear from someone who actually operates QRQ speeds on the order of 50+ WPM who has used this setup, but perhaps that is wishing for too much.

But how about 30 wpm or so in a "QSK style" QSO?

Chuck, W5UXH

Vic Rosenthal

Re: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

Please answer him on-list. I would like to know, too!

On 9/19/2013 10:30 AM, W5UXH wrote:

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Mitch Wolfson, DJØQN / K7DX

Re: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

In reply to this post by W5UXH

Chuck,

Your answer is, "it depends".

Basically, the limiting factor is the quality of the two internet
providers being used plus the inherent latency in any kind of internet
situation.

You will have to add:
the internet latency between the two points (basically ping the other
router from the control location)
+ the latency inherent in the SIP connection between the two RRC's
(about 20 ms)
+ the latency you add to your RRC settings in the keyer and/or advanced
settings (which can be from zero to another 20-30 ms if needed)

The RemoteRig RRC gets around the sidetone and latency issue on the user
end by having its own internal keyer that provides your sidetone. It
then sends a command stream in its own protocol to the radio RRC where
in turn the radio RRC keys the transmitter. You have no apparent latency
from the user side, but obviously this advantage decreases as you
increase code speed. You can also key the RRC's keyer using a paddle,
which is otherwise difficult to do in a remote situation. You can also
key the RRC using an external keyer if you wish.

One of our users has used this system at about 40 wpm QSK and I work a
lot of DX at 30+ with no problem, but your mileage will vary.

73,
Mitch DJ0QN

On 19.09.2013 19:30, W5UXH wrote:

> Apparently my mailman subscription disappeared, so this is a second attempt
> to get this query out there:
>
> Can anyone comment on the performance of the remote rig setup for higher
> speed CW? If I use a keyboard keyer on the K3/0 end and CW+ QRQ mode, other
> than the latency that of course is network dependent, can I expect the
> performance to be close to that when operating the K3 directly?
>
> On the K3/0 end I assume I would hear a local sidetone from the K3/0 and
> there would not be a sidetone coming back from the remote end? Can I expect
> the keying quality from the remote K3 to be the same as when operating the
> K3 directly?
>
> I would really like to hear from someone who actually operates QRQ speeds on
> the order of 50+ WPM who has used this setup, but perhaps that is wishing
> for too much.
>
> But how about 30 wpm or so in a "QSK style" QSO?
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-K3-0-Remote-Rig-QRQ-QSK-performance-tp7579062.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> --
> Mitch Wolfson
> DJØQN / K7DX
> Neubiberger Str. 21, 85640 Putzbrunn
> Skype: mitchwo - Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436
> Echolink: 3001 - IRLP: 5378

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

David Windisch

Re: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

In reply to this post by W5UXH

If you get a 'net speed test from
http://www.megapath.com/speedtestplus/
you will see latency and jitter stats.
In my experience, they make QSK not an option, running, as they do, 30-60ms latency and 1-30ms jitter.
Oh well.
I use an MFJ422 (Curtis chip) keyer to get better control over other issues, eg, "proper" weighting, rather than dot/dash ratio masquerading as weight control, as in the keyer built in to the remoterig box. The delay in sidetone from the far end will drive you nuts trying to send with the delay; I turn the volume down so local sidetone predominates.
You might be able to get sorta-QSK at slow hand-key speeds.

Hth.
Brgds,
Dave, N3HE

Brgds,
Dave, N3HE
Cincinnati OH

W5UXH

Re: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

Thanks for the interesting comments so far. I guess it is difficult to get a clear picture without "hands on", but I have wondered about this for a long time.

Regarding latency effects on QSK, I have a daily qso with a friend, typically at 60 wpm, where we are basically operating two paths in parallel: 20M RF and an "internet CW" VOIP path. The total latency for the full path from each of us through the server to the other (he is in Berkeley, CA, the server is in San Jose, CA and I am in southern NM) is such that one of us can listen to the "real time" RF path and the other can listen to the internet path or we can both listen to the internet path and it is easy to forget which path you are listening to. Of course if one of us pauses, intending to continue, the other may start to respond resulting if a brief doubling of a character or two, but with the full QSK in the K3 and the full duplex on the VOIP path, this is not a problem.

Mitch mentions an external keyer can be used which is what I would require, so it is good to know that. Does the RRC still generate a local sidetone, with that audio mixed in the RRC with the remote audio, and the remote sidetone turned off? David mentions the remote sidetone "will drive you nuts", but hopefully it can be set to zero.

A third reply (offline) commented: "On CW I can hear the band between characters at 25-28 WPM but I would think when you approach 30-35 WPM you wont hear much band.". Perhaps this is with the "slow" CW mode, not "CW+". I would hope that the remote audio coming back would have the same CW+ QSK performance that I experience at 60 wpm. The QSK does degrade a bit starting at 65 wpm, but is excellent up to that point. Above 65 wpm, the QSK is "variable" depending on the exact stream of characters being sent, it is a bit strange actually. I think Wayne has said this is not the case if you send a string of dits using the internal keyer at 80 wpm, but with an external keyer things are not quite the same. Still I am very pleased with the CW+ mode performance up to 65 wpm. At 70 wpm, I actually prefer the VOIP path, but it is very rare to be pushing that hard, and we usually do not even creep up to 65.

Thanks all,

Chuck, W5UXH

Dave Anderson, K4SV

Fw: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

In reply to this post by W5UXH

Previously answered direct...

Dave Anderson, K4SV
Tryon, NC
828 777-5088

www.K4SV.net

----- Forwarded Message -----

>From: "Dave Anderson, K4SV" <[hidden email]>
>To: W5UXH <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 2:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance
>
>
>
>Hi Chuck,
>
>
>My experience with the K3/0 is essentially like operating directly my K3 at home. This assumes a good Internet connection.
>
>
>On CW I can hear the band between characters at 25-28 WPM but I would think when you approach 30-35 WPM you wont hear much band.
>
>
>Side tone is local but the receive audio is live.
>
>
>I am unaware of any function that is not brought forward through the K3/0, it just works very well.
>
>
>I will have my remote operating over the weekend of the 27th and 28th in Pigeon Forge TN at the W4DXCC convention. Not sure where you live but it will be available for operators to use and operate my station back home in NC. http://www.w4dxcc.com/Home.aspx
>
>
>It just works great.
>
>
>Best 73
>
>Dave Anderson, K4SV
>Tryon, NC
> 828 777-5088
>
>www.K4SV.net
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>> From: W5UXH <[hidden email]>
>>To: [hidden email]
>>Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 1:30 PM
>>Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance
>>
>>
>>Apparently my

mailman subscription disappeared, so this is a second attempt

>>to get this query out there:
>>
>>Can anyone comment on the performance of the remote rig setup for higher
>>speed CW? If I use a keyboard keyer on the K3/0 end and CW+ QRQ mode, other
>>than the latency that of course is network dependent, can I expect the
>>performance to be close to that when operating the K3 directly?
>>
>>On the K3/0 end I assume I would hear a local sidetone from the K3/0 and
>>there would not be a sidetone coming back from the remote end? Can I expect
>>the keying quality from the remote K3 to be the same as when operating the
>>K3 directly?
>>
>>I would really like to hear from someone who actually operates QRQ speeds on
>>the order of 50+ WPM who has used this setup, but perhaps that is wishing
>>for too much.
>>
>>But how about 30 wpm or so in a "QSK style" QSO?
>>
>>Chuck, W5UXH
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>View this message in

context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-K3-0-Remote-Rig-QRQ-QSK-performance-tp7579062.html

>>Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>______________________________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Mitch Wolfson, DJØQN / K7DX

Re: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

In reply to this post by W5UXH

Chuck,

You must set the rig's sidetone to zero to keep from driving yourself
crazy. This is possible with virtually any rig (at least any modern rig
I have used), not only the K3. You will have sidetone generated locally.

For attaching an external keyer, refer to appendix B on page 228 of the
RemoteRig manual on how to interface an external keyer directly to the
RRC's I/O jack:
<http://www.remoterig.com/downloads/RemoteRig_RRC1258-MkII_Users_manual.pdf>

73,
Mitch DJ0QN

On 19.09.2013 20:55, W5UXH wrote:

> Thanks for the interesting comments so far. I guess it is difficult to get a
> clear picture without "hands on", but I have wondered about this for a long
> time.
>
> Regarding latency effects on QSK, I have a daily qso with a friend,
> typically at 60 wpm, where we are basically operating two paths in parallel:
> 20M RF and an "internet CW" VOIP path. The total latency for the full path
> from each of us through the server to the other (he is in Berkeley, CA, the
> server is in San Jose, CA and I am in southern NM) is such that one of us
> can listen to the "real time" RF path and the other can listen to the
> internet path or we can both listen to the internet path and it is easy to
> forget which path you are listening to. Of course if one of us pauses,
> intending to continue, the other may start to respond resulting if a brief
> doubling of a character or two, but with the full QSK in the K3 and the full
> duplex on the VOIP path, this is not a problem.
>
> Mitch mentions an external keyer can be used which is what I would require,
> so it is good to know that. Does the RRC still generate a local sidetone,
> with that audio mixed in the RRC with the remote audio, and the remote
> sidetone turned off? David mentions the remote sidetone "will drive you
> nuts", but hopefully it can be set to zero.
>
> A third reply (offline) commented: "On CW I can hear the band between
> characters at 25-28 WPM but I would think when you approach 30-35 WPM you
> wont hear much band.". Perhaps this is with the "slow" CW mode, not "CW+".
> I would hope that the remote audio coming back would have the same CW+ QSK
> performance that I experience at 60 wpm. The QSK does degrade a bit
> starting at 65 wpm, but is excellent up to that point. Above 65 wpm, the
> QSK is "variable" depending on the exact stream of characters being sent, it
> is a bit strange actually. I think Wayne has said this is not the case if
> you send a string of dits using the internal keyer at 80 wpm, but with an
> external keyer things are not quite the same. Still I am very pleased with
> the CW+ mode performance up to 65 wpm. At 70 wpm, I actually prefer the
> VOIP path, but it is very rare to be pushing that hard, and we usually do
> not even creep up to 65.
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-K3-0-Remote-Rig-QRQ-QSK-performance-tp7579062p7579068.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> --
> Mitch Wolfson
> DJØQN / K7DX
> Neubiberger Str. 21, 85640 Putzbrunn
> Skype: mitchwo - Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436
> Echolink: 3001 - IRLP: 5378

Rick Tavan N6XI

Re: [K3] K3/0 Remote Rig QRQ / QSK performance

In reply to this post by W5UXH

Mitch is an expert. Heed his advice. I'm just a user, bumbling my way
through my first weeks with RemoteRig and a pair of K3s. Here is what I've
found:

QRQ QSK that sounds like a local K3 doesn't seem possible. The latencies
inherent in the Internet will wipe out all of the space between elements
and most of the space between characters. You may hear something between
words. At 30-35 wpm I can use QSK but there are enough keying artifacts to
make it more like "the (bad) ol' days" than the beautiful, clean QSK we
have come to treasure. This isn't really the fault of the K3 or Remoterig.
You simply have delays in the system that are similar in duration to dits
and dit spaces.

Your dual-path operation sounds like nearly full duplex and may work just
fine. If you transmit on one channel and listen on the other, then you
should hear everything the other party sends, even while you are key-down.

All this being said, I have enjoyed semi-QSK immensely with Remoterig.
Given the inherent latencies, the operation is much smoother than I
expected. I turn the Remote K3 MON level down to zero and listen to the
local monitor tone generated inside the Remoterig Control RRC. Yes, you
hear that tone whether you use the keyer inside the RRC or an external
keyer or computer connected to the RJ45 "I/O" jack on the back of the
Control RRC.

I've done one contest remotely - a CW Sprint - and was satisfied with the
experience. I was severely handicapped in both power, antennas and number
of rigs (one instead of SO2R) compared to my usual Sprint operations. I
look forward to the next Sprint when I expect to have full power and
rotatable antennas. (SO2R should be possible with two control rigs but I'm
not planning to set that up.)

Set your expectations appropriately and you will enjoy remote operation
with K3 and Remoterig. Expect more than physics can deliver and you'll be
disappointed.

73,

/Rick N6XI

On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:55 AM, W5UXH <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for the interesting comments so far. I guess it is difficult to
> get a
> clear picture without "hands on", but I have wondered about this for a long
> time.
>
> Regarding latency effects on QSK, I have a daily qso with a friend,
> typically at 60 wpm, where we are basically operating two paths in
> parallel:
> 20M RF and an "internet CW" VOIP path. The total latency for the full path
> from each of us through the server to the other (he is in Berkeley, CA, the
> server is in San Jose, CA and I am in southern NM) is such that one of us
> can listen to the "real time" RF path and the other can listen to the
> internet path or we can both listen to the internet path and it is easy to
> forget which path you are listening to. Of course if one of us pauses,
> intending to continue, the other may start to respond resulting if a brief
> doubling of a character or two, but with the full QSK in the K3 and the
> full
> duplex on the VOIP path, this is not a problem.
>
> Mitch mentions an external keyer can be used which is what I would require,
> so it is good to know that. Does the RRC still generate a local sidetone,
> with that audio mixed in the RRC with the remote audio, and the remote
> sidetone turned off? David mentions the remote sidetone "will drive you
> nuts", but hopefully it can be set to zero.
>
> A third reply (offline) commented: "On CW I can hear the band between
> characters at 25-28 WPM but I would think when you approach 30-35 WPM you
> wont hear much band.". Perhaps this is with the "slow" CW mode, not "CW+".
> I would hope that the remote audio coming back would have the same CW+ QSK
> performance that I experience at 60 wpm. The QSK does degrade a bit
> starting at 65 wpm, but is excellent up to that point. Above 65 wpm, the
> QSK is "variable" depending on the exact stream of characters being sent,
> it
> is a bit strange actually. I think Wayne has said this is not the case if
> you send a string of dits using the internal keyer at 80 wpm, but with an
> external keyer things are not quite the same. Still I am very pleased with
> the CW+ mode performance up to 65 wpm. At 70 wpm, I actually prefer the
> VOIP path, but it is very rare to be pushing that hard, and we usually do
> not even creep up to 65.
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-K3-0-Remote-Rig-QRQ-QSK-performance-tp7579062p7579068.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Rick Tavan N6XI
Truckee, CA
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html