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[K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

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John Reilly-3

[K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Where in the K3/K3s Block Diagram is the RF Gain control located? We're
having discussions concerning whether is is better to reduce the RF
Gain, or turn on attenuation to increase dynamic range, especially on
40m and below.
Thanks,
- 73, John, N0TA
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donovanf

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Hi John,

The K3/K3S "RF Gain" control doesn't control any RF stage at all...
It actually controls the gain of the 8.215 MHz IF amplifier immediately
following the 8.215 MHz roofing filters which then controls the
8.215 MHz IF signal level feeding the 2nd mixer.

See the K3 RF Board schematic, page 4 of 4. The 8.215 MHz
IF amplifier is Q1. IF amplifier gain is controlled the front panel
"RF Gain" control (labelled as VIF Gain on the schematic) via U3.

This is why its so critically important to select the correct Preamp
setting (Preamp1, Preamp2 (in the K3S) or OFF) and proper attenuation
level because those are the only gain controls in the RF path of the
K3/K3S. If you select Prramp or attenuation incorrectly you've inserted
excessive signal levels into the roofing filters and IF amplifier.

73
Frank
W3LPL

----- Original Message -----

From: "John Reilly" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:40:06 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Where in the K3/K3s Block Diagram is the RF Gain control located? We're
having discussions concerning whether is is better to reduce the RF
Gain, or turn on attenuation to increase dynamic range, especially on
40m and below.
Thanks,
- 73, John, N0TA
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

In all instances, 160M, 80M, & 40M, I run 15 dB Attenuation. For 10M & 6M I run Pre 1. RF gain is then adjusted per band as needed depending on band noise.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 17, 2020, at 5:30 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>
> The K3/K3S "RF Gain" control doesn't control any RF stage at all...
> It actually controls the gain of the 8.215 MHz IF amplifier immediately
> following the 8.215 MHz roofing filters which then controls the
> 8.215 MHz IF signal level feeding the 2nd mixer.
>
>
> See the K3 RF Board schematic, page 4 of 4. The 8.215 MHz
> IF amplifier is Q1. IF amplifier gain is controlled the front panel
> "RF Gain" control (labelled as VIF Gain on the schematic) via U3.
>
>
> This is why its so critically important to select the correct Preamp
> setting (Preamp1, Preamp2 (in the K3S) or OFF) and proper attenuation
> level because those are the only gain controls in the RF path of the
> K3/K3S. If you select Prramp or attenuation incorrectly you've inserted
> excessive signal levels into the roofing filters and IF amplifier.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "John Reilly" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:40:06 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control
>
> Where in the K3/K3s Block Diagram is the RF Gain control located? We're
> having discussions concerning whether is is better to reduce the RF
> Gain, or turn on attenuation to increase dynamic range, especially on
> 40m and below.
> Thanks,
> - 73, John, N0TA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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NK7Z

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

I looked at my K3, (not S), and I have a single step of ATT 10 DB,
should I have more, or is it just the K3S that has multi steps.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 5/17/20 5:11 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> In all instances, 160M, 80M, & 40M, I run 15 dB Attenuation. For 10M & 6M I run Pre 1. RF gain is then adjusted per band as needed depending on band noise.
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 17, 2020, at 5:30 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> The K3/K3S "RF Gain" control doesn't control any RF stage at all...
>> It actually controls the gain of the 8.215 MHz IF amplifier immediately
>> following the 8.215 MHz roofing filters which then controls the
>> 8.215 MHz IF signal level feeding the 2nd mixer.
>>
>>
>> See the K3 RF Board schematic, page 4 of 4. The 8.215 MHz
>> IF amplifier is Q1. IF amplifier gain is controlled the front panel
>> "RF Gain" control (labelled as VIF Gain on the schematic) via U3.
>>
>>
>> This is why its so critically important to select the correct Preamp
>> setting (Preamp1, Preamp2 (in the K3S) or OFF) and proper attenuation
>> level because those are the only gain controls in the RF path of the
>> K3/K3S. If you select Prramp or attenuation incorrectly you've inserted
>> excessive signal levels into the roofing filters and IF amplifier.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 73
>> Frank
>> W3LPL
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "John Reilly" <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:40:06 PM
>> Subject: [Elecraft] [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control
>>
>> Where in the K3/K3s Block Diagram is the RF Gain control located? We're
>> having discussions concerning whether is is better to reduce the RF
>> Gain, or turn on attenuation to increase dynamic range, especially on
>> 40m and below.
>> Thanks,
>> - 73, John, N0TA
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

On 5/17/2020 5:11 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> For 10M & 6M I run Pre 1. RF gain is then adjusted per band as needed depending on band noise.

You must be in a pretty noisy location, Bob. Sometimes my QTH is pretty
quiet in some directions, sometimes it's noisy. I ALWAYS need Preamp 2
on 12, 10, and 6M when it's quiet to hear the weak ones. When it's
noisy, I don't.

73, Jim K9YC
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Bill Frantz

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

In reply to this post by NK7Z

I think on the K3 you only have one level of ATT, unless you
have upgraded the right piece.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 5/17/20 at 10:16 PM, [hidden email] (Dave Cole) wrote:

>I looked at my K3, (not S), and I have a single step of ATT 10
>DB, should I have more, or is it just the K3S that has multi steps.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Government is not reason, it is not
eloquence, it is force; like
408-348-7900 | a fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful
master. Never for a
www.pwpconsult.com | moment should it be left to irresponsible
action. Geo Washington

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Nr4c

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

I think the upgrade for K3 and the K3S provides still one level ATT but two levels of PREAMP on 12, 10 and 6 meters.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On May 17, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think on the K3 you only have one level of ATT, unless you have upgraded the right piece.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
>> On 5/17/20 at 10:16 PM, [hidden email] (Dave Cole) wrote:
>>
>> I looked at my K3, (not S), and I have a single step of ATT 10 DB, should I have more, or is it just the K3S that has multi steps.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz | Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like
> 408-348-7900 | a fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a
> www.pwpconsult.com | moment should it be left to irresponsible action. Geo Washington
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Thanks!

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 5/17/20 8:50 PM, Nr4c wrote:

Mark Musick

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

The K3S has 5, 10 and 15 dB of ATT. You have to select MENU (NOT CONFIG MENU), rotate VFO B to ATTN then rotate VFO A to select 5, 10 or 15. When you select the ATT button you will have the amount of ATT set in MENU.
The triple level of ATT only applies to the main receiver. The sub-receiver still only has the one level of ATT of 10 dB.
You are correct that the K3 has only one level of ATT. 10 dB in both the main and sub-receivers.

73,
Mark, WB9CIF

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 04:08
To: Nr4c <[hidden email]>; Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Thanks!

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nk7z.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce91b1c000fd3451e2d2208d7fae14ac0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637253717830517321&sdata=dGIEepXHjlk17%2BbrQo12BJP0D4g8FDyZVrI29hc4jgI%3D&reserved=0
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 5/17/20 8:50 PM, Nr4c wrote:

> I think the upgrade for K3 and the K3S provides still one level ATT but two levels of PREAMP on 12, 10 and 6 meters.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>
>
>> On May 17, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think on the K3 you only have one level of ATT, unless you have upgraded the right piece.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>>> On 5/17/20 at 10:16 PM, [hidden email] (Dave Cole) wrote:
>>>
>>> I looked at my K3, (not S), and I have a single step of ATT 10 DB, should I have more, or is it just the K3S that has multi steps.
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Bill Frantz | Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like
>> 408-348-7900 | a fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
>> pwpconsult.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce91b1c000fd3451e2d2208d7fae14
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>> mp;sdata=ffqq8g1gQGQJBLuxAEO6aC8Ge%2BGFBgdlxaaKU3n7idQ%3D&reserve
>> d=0 | moment should it be left to irresponsible action. Geo
>> Washington
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Administrator

There's also a shortcut. If you hold the ATT switch in for about 3 seconds, it takes you directly to attenuator value selection. Note that the selected value is stored on a per-band basis, as with preamp setting.

Wayne
N6KR

> On May 18, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Mark Musick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The K3S has 5, 10 and 15 dB of ATT. You have to select MENU (NOT CONFIG MENU), rotate VFO B to ATTN then rotate VFO A to select 5, 10 or 15. When you select the ATT button you will have the amount of ATT set in MENU.
> The triple level of ATT only applies to the main receiver. The sub-receiver still only has the one level of ATT of 10 dB.
> You are correct that the K3 has only one level of ATT. 10 dB in both the main and sub-receivers.
>
> 73,
> Mark, WB9CIF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 04:08
> To: Nr4c <[hidden email]>; Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control
>
> Thanks!
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nk7z.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce91b1c000fd3451e2d2208d7fae14ac0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637253717830517321&sdata=dGIEepXHjlk17%2BbrQo12BJP0D4g8FDyZVrI29hc4jgI%3D&reserved=0
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 5/17/20 8:50 PM, Nr4c wrote:
>> I think the upgrade for K3 and the K3S provides still one level ATT but two levels of PREAMP on 12, 10 and 6 meters.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ...nr4c. bill
>>
>>
>>> On May 17, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think on the K3 you only have one level of ATT, unless you have upgraded the right piece.
>>>
>>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>>
>>>> On 5/17/20 at 10:16 PM, [hidden email] (Dave Cole) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I looked at my K3, (not S), and I have a single step of ATT 10 DB, should I have more, or is it just the K3S that has multi steps.
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Bill Frantz | Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like
>>> 408-348-7900 | a fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a
>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
>>> pwpconsult.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce91b1c000fd3451e2d2208d7fae14
>>> ac0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637253717830517321&a
>>> mp;sdata=ffqq8g1gQGQJBLuxAEO6aC8Ge%2BGFBgdlxaaKU3n7idQ%3D&reserve
>>> d=0 | moment should it be left to irresponsible action. Geo
>>> Washington
>>>
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NK7Z

Re: [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control

Thanks gents!

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 5/18/20 7:04 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> There's also a shortcut. If you hold the ATT switch in for about 3 seconds, it takes you directly to attenuator value selection. Note that the selected value is stored on a per-band basis, as with preamp setting.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On May 18, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Mark Musick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The K3S has 5, 10 and 15 dB of ATT. You have to select MENU (NOT CONFIG MENU), rotate VFO B to ATTN then rotate VFO A to select 5, 10 or 15. When you select the ATT button you will have the amount of ATT set in MENU.
>> The triple level of ATT only applies to the main receiver. The sub-receiver still only has the one level of ATT of 10 dB.
>> You are correct that the K3 has only one level of ATT. 10 dB in both the main and sub-receivers.
>>
>> 73,
>> Mark, WB9CIF
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dave Cole
>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 04:08
>> To: Nr4c <[hidden email]>; Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3/K3s] RF Gain Control
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> 73, and thanks,
>> Dave (NK7Z)
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nk7z.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce91b1c000fd3451e2d2208d7fae14ac0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637253717830517321&sdata=dGIEepXHjlk17%2BbrQo12BJP0D4g8FDyZVrI29hc4jgI%3D&reserved=0
>> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
>> ARRL Technical Specialist
>> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>>
>> On 5/17/20 8:50 PM, Nr4c wrote:
>>> I think the upgrade for K3 and the K3S provides still one level ATT but two levels of PREAMP on 12, 10 and 6 meters.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> ...nr4c. bill
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 17, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think on the K3 you only have one level of ATT, unless you have upgraded the right piece.
>>>>
>>>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/17/20 at 10:16 PM, [hidden email] (Dave Cole) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked at my K3, (not S), and I have a single step of ATT 10 DB, should I have more, or is it just the K3S that has multi steps.
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Bill Frantz | Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like
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