Elecraft

K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

Classic

List

Threaded

35 messages Options

KD0Q

Re: FW: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

Good point Don!

That's why I use stainless steel hardware and ICE 602 copper/aluminum
anti-oxidant paste.

Glenn - KD0Q

On 12/30/2013 14:29, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Hmmm, An aluminum bar tied to a copper wire! Be aware that there will
> be oxidation at the junction point due to dissimilar metals unless
> special bonding is used to slow (but not stop) the oxidation.
>
> Just something to bear in mind.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> On 12/30/2013 3:23 PM, KD0Q-Glenn wrote:
>> Everything in the shack is grounded to an aluminum bus bar across the
>> back of the operating table which is tied with #6 solid copper to the
>> same point as the tower and AC Main grounds.
>>
>> Just for reference, the antenna is a 260ft OCF Inverted Vee at 75 ft
>> using a Balun Designs #4115ocf 4:1/Choke combination balun. Coax
>> shield is grounded at the top and bottom of the tower.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

FW: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by Bill OMara

I came to the same conclusion and built filters to clear this up too... but
then...

I'm down on PJ4 for holiday the past two weeks operating for fun with a
portable 3 element beam (20-6) and dipoles for 80 and 40. On Saturday night
I was on 40 meters with the amp running at probably 1.4:1 SWR on CW, saw the
tuner go into manual mode and saw a good sized thick cloud of black smoke
emit from the KPA500. I quickly shut the amp off... but used it fine the
following nights on 20 meters and 18 meters. Thought it might be because I
don't have a really good station ground, but can't prove that. Guess I'll
take the amp apart when I get back to see what's burned up. Until then I'll
just keep using it... but not on 40 and 80 meters.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch
Staunton, Illinois

email: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill OMara
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 4:40 PM
To: 'Igor Sokolov'; 'Jeffrey Otterson'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

I saw the problem when operating a Multi-op contesting and the 80M OP was
running 1.5kw and the RF is induced into the 160M Phased inverted L array
and the combination of induced energy and the SWR reflected power on the
array kick the KAT500 back into a retune mode. So, either local energy on
Broadcast energy will both make this happen.

I now have built coaxial Stubs and look forward to seeing if this solves my
Local energy problem.

73 Bill W4RM

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

michael-2

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

let us not forget that dissimilar metal is making a thermal couple junction point and inducing a voltage on the line also.

73, Michael - N8NOC

K1-4 #3046
K3/10 #6596
KX3 #1573

On Dec 30, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmmm, An aluminum bar tied to a copper wire! Be aware that there will be oxidation at the junction point due to dissimilar metals unless special bonding is used to slow (but not stop) the oxidation.

Just something to bear in mind.

73,
Don W3FPR
On 12/30/2013 3:23 PM, KD0Q-Glenn wrote:
> Everything in the shack is grounded to an aluminum bus bar across the back of the operating table which is tied with #6 solid copper to the same point as the tower and AC Main grounds.
>
> Just for reference, the antenna is a 260ft OCF Inverted Vee at 75 ft using a Balun Designs #4115ocf 4:1/Choke combination balun. Coax shield is grounded at the top and bottom of the tower.
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Buck - k4ia

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by Jim Bennett

That points to a common connector as the problem Check your common connector - something before the antennas.

Craig Buck

> On Dec 30, 2013, at 3:14 PM, Jim Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> They are on all of MY various HF antennas: doublet, Inverted L's, and a ground mounted vertical.
>
>> On Monday, Dec 30, 2013, at Monday, 11:54 AM, Jim Miller wrote:
>>
>> Do you have coomon mode chokes on you feed lines?
>>
>> Jim ab3cv
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2013, at 1:29 PM, Bill W2BLC <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> In regards to proper grounding etc.: I think it is safe to say that K3 owners have a very good grasp of what is needed to construct and operate a proper station - safety and RF wise.
>>
>> I do, yet still went back over every last connector/connection/lug, etc. Everything is locked down properly here. No baluns, good coax, and everything is mechanical and soldered along the entire antenna routes. Yet, the problem continues. Perhaps the most disconcerting part is that my other auto tuners/rigs do not exhibit this difficulty. Perhaps the KAT500 is seeing something the others do not.
>>
>> The difficult part is never knowing when the tuner will take off and the fact that MANUAL selection does not appear to make any difference. I have been using MANUAL for a couple of months. I do not see that it has made any difference in occurrences. The instances of "run-away" are random and it is usually days between events.
>>
>> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Phil Salas

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by Igor Sokolov-2

I haven’t had this problem. However, in addition to Igor’s thoughts on a high reflected signal, here is another thought. A strong signal (like you can have in contest environment and/or multi-transmitter/multi-antenna set-up) could be counted by the KAT500 frequency counter resulting in the KAT500 jumping to a different memorized frequency setting. I don’t know what the threshold sensitivity of the KAT500 counter is, but incoming signals can be very high under some conditions. I wonder if disabling the internal KAT500 frequency counter might be something to try – especially when band data is provided by the auxbus cable.

Phil – AD5X

“It may be not relevant to this particular case but another reason for weird KAT500 behavior can be strong interfering signal of a neighbor or nearby broadcasting station. I did run into situations where such signals induced up to 5 volts into low band antenna. Then KAT500 counts that signal as reflected and thinks that SWR is very high. One may try to connect broadband spectrum analyzer to the antenna and see what is going on. If it is broadcasting signal well below ham bands then high pass filter between the tuner and antenna can help.73, Igor UA9CDC”
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bill-3

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

Was on 75 this morning and carefully monitoring what is going on with
the tuner. I am running 100 Watts through the KAT500 - the amp is on
standby until this gets fixed. No smoke wanted here hihihi.

Results: Several times during QSO the tuner would click and make noises
- this while on MANUAL. No changes noted on any meters - and I monitor
output from the K3 and before the antenna. No unusual deflections noted.

Then comes the real sadness: No one noticed that I wasn't running the
amp! Not a single comment - negative about my signal. Makes me stop and
think about making some near future changes in the equipment lineup. I
think this "problem" may have been a good wake up call on what I really
need. Odd the lessons we take away from conversations on the reflector.

Bill W2BLC K-Line

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

W1KSZ

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by Phil Salas

What concerns me about all this talk of Reflected Power, local High
Power Stations, etc., is that none of the other users of Automatic
Antenna Tuners (non-Elecraft) have reported similar problems.

I hope the issue can be corrected via firmware. We will be awaiting
the results of their studies.

73 es HNY, Dick, W1KSZ

On 12/31/2013 5:41 AM, Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:

> I haven’t had this problem. However, in addition to Igor’s thoughts on a high reflected signal, here is another thought. A strong signal (like you can have in contest environment and/or multi-transmitter/multi-antenna set-up) could be counted by the KAT500 frequency counter resulting in the KAT500 jumping to a different memorized frequency setting. I don’t know what the threshold sensitivity of the KAT500 counter is, but incoming signals can be very high under some conditions. I wonder if disabling the internal KAT500 frequency counter might be something to try – especially when band data is provided by the auxbus cable.
>
> Phil – AD5X
>
> “It may be not relevant to this particular case but another reason for weird KAT500 behavior can be strong interfering signal of a neighbor or nearby broadcasting station. I did run into situations where such signals induced up to 5 volts into low band antenna. Then KAT500 counts that signal as reflected and thinks that SWR is very high. One may try to connect broadband spectrum analyzer to the antenna and see what is going on. If it is broadcasting signal well below ham bands then high pass filter between the tuner and antenna can help.73, Igor UA9CDC”
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

wayne burdick

Progress on K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR/band change (+ improved K3/KAT500 integration)

Administrator

Hi all,

Yesterday we analyzing the reports of unexpected SWR faults and band changes. They fall into a few categories, and we have a good handle on how to deal with all of them in firmware. (Faults caused by antenna/feedline/connector problems are the only exception. These can cause SWR to change asynchronously, and there's no way to fix this in firmware. The amp and tuner are correctly going into bypass mode, retuning, or inserting attenuation in such cases.)

Unfortunately the KAT500 changes cannot be completed immediately because the responsible engineer is leaving for a week's vacation starting tomorrow. But the changes are fairly simple, so shortly after he returns we'll be sending out new firmware to a group of customers who have reported problems. Sorry for the delay.

In addition to firmware changes needed to handle SWR and band-change issues, we'll be improving integration between the KAT500 and the K3. For example, you'll be able to use the K3's ANT switch to select antennas at the KAT500.

We're also working on a K-Line Installation guide, intended to be a more convenient resource for all of the information needed to interconnect and setup the K3, P3, KPA500 and KAT500. We hope to have this out a month or so after all of the pending firmware changes have been completed.

73 (& Happy New Year)

Wayne
N6KR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Rick WA6NHC

Re: [Elecraft_K3] Progress on K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR/band change (+ improved K3/KAT500 integration)

Me too please.

HNY es 73,
Rick wa6nhc

Tiny iPhone 5 keypad, typos are inevitable

> On Dec 31, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Jack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to be on the list for the updated firmware.
> Tnx,
> Jack
> W4GRJ
>
> On Dec 31, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Yesterday we analyzing the reports of unexpected SWR faults and band changes. They fall into a few categories, and we have a good handle on how to deal with all of them in firmware. (Faults caused by antenna/feedline/connector problems are the only exception. These can cause SWR to change asynchronously, and there's no way to fix this in firmware. The amp and tuner are correctly going into bypass mode, retuning, or inserting attenuation in such cases.)
>
> Unfortunately the KAT500 changes cannot be completed immediately because the responsible engineer is leaving for a week's vacation starting tomorrow. But the changes are fairly simple, so shortly after he returns we'll be sending out new firmware to a group of customers who have reported problems. Sorry for the delay.
>
> In addition to firmware changes needed to handle SWR and band-change issues, we'll be improving integration between the KAT500 and the K3. For example, you'll be able to use the K3's ANT switch to select antennas at the KAT500.
>
> We're also working on a K-Line Installation guide, intended to be a more convenient resource for all of the information needed to interconnect and setup the K3, P3, KPA500 and KAT500. We hope to have this out a month or so after all of the pending firmware changes have been completed.
>
> 73 (& Happy New Year)
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> __._,_.___
> Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
> RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 4
> Visit Your Group
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback
> .
>
> __,_._,___

N5GE

Re: Progress on K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR/band change (+ improved K3/KAT500 integration)

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

EXCELLENT!!!!

Amateure Radio Operator N5GE

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 11:23:23 -0800, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Yesterday we analyzing the reports of unexpected SWR faults and band changes. They fall into a few categories, and we have a good handle on how to deal with all of them in firmware. (Faults caused by antenna/feedline/connector problems are the only exception. These can cause SWR to change asynchronously, and there's no way to fix this in firmware. The amp and tuner are correctly going into bypass mode, retuning, or inserting attenuation in such cases.)
>
>Unfortunately the KAT500 changes cannot be completed immediately because the responsible engineer is leaving for a week's vacation starting tomorrow. But the changes are fairly simple, so shortly after he returns we'll be sending out new firmware to a group of customers who have reported problems. Sorry for the delay.
>
>In addition to firmware changes needed to handle SWR and band-change issues, we'll be improving integration between the KAT500 and the K3. For example, you'll be able to use the K3's ANT switch to select antennas at the KAT500.
>
>We're also working on a K-Line Installation guide, intended to be a more convenient resource for all of the information needed to interconnect and setup the K3, P3, KPA500 and KAT500. We hope to have this out a month or so after all of the pending firmware changes have been completed.
>
>73 (& Happy New Year)
>
>Wayne
>N6KR
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by W1KSZ

Silence doesn't mean there are those of us who haven't had issues with other automatics. I have had issues using other tuners, MFJ, Etc. I still use an MFJ 998 external to the shack, and I have some issues with weather; rain, ice and snow with any tuner. I did get MFJ to replace my first 998 after a yearlong hassle. The replacement seems to be better.

Using high power requires lots more care. I know Dick D. will get some of this fixed for the K-Line in firmware, but the antenna, connectors and common current issues are our problems. Running troublesome antenna setups can be hazardous at high power. I have a couple of burned insulators to demonstrate the power of high power RF. Antenna failure can happen. I think it best to focus on the Elecraft equipment rather than get into a discussion of other brands as these are not at issue.
73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Solomon
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 9:05 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

What concerns me about all this talk of Reflected Power, local High Power Stations, etc., is that none of the other users of Automatic Antenna Tuners (non-Elecraft) have reported similar problems.

I hope the issue can be corrected via firmware. We will be awaiting the results of their studies.

73 es HNY, Dick, W1KSZ

On 12/31/2013 5:41 AM, Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:

> I haven’t had this problem. However, in addition to Igor’s thoughts on a high reflected signal, here is another thought. A strong signal (like you can have in contest environment and/or multi-transmitter/multi-antenna set-up) could be counted by the KAT500 frequency counter resulting in the KAT500 jumping to a different memorized frequency setting. I don’t know what the threshold sensitivity of the KAT500 counter is, but incoming signals can be very high under some conditions. I wonder if disabling the internal KAT500 frequency counter might be something to try – especially when band data is provided by the auxbus cable.
>
> Phil – AD5X
>
> “It may be not relevant to this particular case but another reason for weird KAT500 behavior can be strong interfering signal of a neighbor or nearby broadcasting station. I did run into situations where such signals induced up to 5 volts into low band antenna. Then KAT500 counts that signal as reflected and thinks that SWR is very high. One may try to connect broadband spectrum analyzer to the antenna and see what is going on. If it is broadcasting signal well below ham bands then high pass filter between the tuner and antenna can help.73, Igor UA9CDC”
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Eric Buggee; VK3AX

Re: Progress on K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR/band change (+ improved K3/KAT500 integration)

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
Thank you for your thoughtful positive response to the
KAT500 SWR faulting & band change issues.

My K3 (4520) has performed flawlesly since new, thank you & team at
Elecraft, however my KAT500 (0433) has exhibited some of the above
reported difficulties in operation.

On the basis of the foregoing, I would request that you include me on
the list for the updated firmware for my KAT500.

Thank you and the team at Elecraft for your wonderful support to your
loyal band of customers, myself included.

May I wish you& all at Elecraft all the best for 2014,. May it be
healthy, happy & successful to all at Elecraft.

73, Eric VK3AX.

On 1/1/2014 6:23 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Yesterday we analyzing the reports of unexpected SWR faults and band changes. They fall into a few categories, and we have a good handle on how to deal with all of them in firmware. (Faults caused by antenna/feedline/connector problems are the only exception. These can cause SWR to change asynchronously, and there's no way to fix this in firmware. The amp and tuner are correctly going into bypass mode, retuning, or inserting attenuation in such cases.)
>
> Unfortunately the KAT500 changes cannot be completed immediately because the responsible engineer is leaving for a week's vacation starting tomorrow. But the changes are fairly simple, so shortly after he returns we'll be sending out new firmware to a group of customers who have reported problems. Sorry for the delay.
>
> In addition to firmware changes needed to handle SWR and band-change issues, we'll be improving integration between the KAT500 and the K3. For example, you'll be able to use the K3's ANT switch to select antennas at the KAT500.
>
> We're also working on a K-Line Installation guide, intended to be a more convenient resource for all of the information needed to interconnect and setup the K3, P3, KPA500 and KAT500. We hope to have this out a month or so after all of the pending firmware changes have been completed.
>
> 73 (& Happy New Year)
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Va3ied-2

Re: FW: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by KD0Q

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Jack Brindle-2

Re: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

From the discussion that you referred to, I would recommend the use of thick copper braid to bond the grounds of your equipment together in order to
reduce grounding problems. This is far better than using a copper bar or a single point ground in a star pattern.

Now just what problem are you trying to resolve? There were several discussed.

- Jack B, W6FB

> On Dec 19, 2014, at 7:31 PM, Va3ied <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just bought the tuner and am having the exact same issues on 80 m....what
> veh of firmware works best?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-KPA500-KAT500-SWR-problem-tp7582232p7596173.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: FW: K3/KPA500/KAT500 SWR problem

In reply to this post by Va3ied-2

I doubt your problems are because of the firmware, but the answer about
the best version of firmware to use is to always load the latest
production version.

Beta versions can be useful if you are experiencing problems that the
beta release corrects. Remember that beta versions are usually OK to
use, but there are made available so a large number of users can report
any problems they experience. If there are no problems reported, that
beta version will be advanced to production status. OTOH, if there are
problems reported, that beta version will be replaced by another beta
with those problems addressed.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/19/2014 10:31 PM, Va3ied wrote:
> I just bought the tuner and am having the exact same issues on 80 m....what
> veh of firmware works best?
>
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]