K3: N1MM for Field Day

[K7TV]

I just proposed to our Field Day chief that we use my K3 this year (with extra precautions to avoid power interruptions, and with a computer available for re-loading the firmware if necessary). BTW I first did some hurried testing with the K3 running off my linear Astron PSU cranked down to 11.0 V (only 10.5 V indicated on the K3 at 100W due to cable drop). At this low voltage and 100W there seemed to be a slight increase in IMD; none at 65W.

I now have some experience with N1MM (but not for FD) and like it a lot. So, I also suggested we try it for FD, along with the computer infrastructure needed. Somehow, it just seems harder and harder to get along without a computer.... What we have been doing for FD is using a DOS program on an ancient laptop for logging... The initial response from the FD chief is concern about log format for submission. I mentioned the information available in the N1MM manual.

Question: I think many of you already used N1MM for FD last year. If so, could you please send me some detail of the steps you went through to combine the N1MM output with other information to create the complete submission?

Thanks,

73,
Erik K7TV
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[Merv Schweigert]

The past couple of days I have noticed the noise level on the K3 has
gone up a couple of S units and on 20 meters and there were tunable
hash signals.    I started to try and find the problem and using another
receiver I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of noise.
I have used this supply for some time and have not noticed the noise
before.   I drug out an old backup supply MFJ-4245 and behold it
also has a lot of tunable hash signals on 20 meters.  
Wonder what supplies are being used with the K3?  Or if anyone has
had luck on cleaning up the switcher supplies like the Astron?
I suspect it could be due to age and caps going bad,  the supply has
been in use for 8 years.
There are no locally available parts so before I try and recap and order
ferrites etc like to know what works if anything.
Thanks  Merv KH7C
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[n7ws]

Why don't you just use N3FJP's Field Day logger instead?




     
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[WILLIS COOKE]

I am using a Jetstream JTPS28M and I am  happy.  I have a few birdies, but I am not sure which come from the switching supply and which come from the computer.  They don't give me enough trouble that I have investigated. The JTPS28M is only $99.95 so I am not sure it is worth trouble shooting and changing caps.  The rule of thumb for electrolytic capacitors that that I learned year ago was to change them after 7 years.  I suspect that modern caps are better than the ones we had in 1960, but that still may be your problem.  There are plenty of places to buy caps on the internet and I don't know any place that it is more convenient to buy local.  I live in the Houston area and still need to buy such things by internet.  Fry's is only 5 miles away but if they have the part in stock they will have one when I need four.  EPO will have four that are old stock or surplus that may not be any better than the one removed.  So I buy from Allied or one of the other
 on line vendors, wait a week and save the gas.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ


--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Merv Schweigert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Merv Schweigert <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Power supply
> To:
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 12:19 PM
> The past couple of days I have noticed the noise level on
> the K3 has
> gone up a couple of S units and on 20 meters and there were
> tunable
> hash signals.    I started to try and find the problem and
> using another
> receiver I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of
> noise.
> I have used this supply for some time and have not noticed
> the noise
> before.   I drug out an old backup supply MFJ-4245 and
> behold it
> also has a lot of tunable hash signals on 20 meters.  
> Wonder what supplies are being used with the K3?  Or if
> anyone has
> had luck on cleaning up the switcher supplies like the
> Astron?
> I suspect it could be due to age and caps going bad,  the
> supply has
> been in use for 8 years.
> There are no locally available parts so before I try and
> recap and order
> ferrites etc like to know what works if anything.
> Thanks  Merv KH7C
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

... [show rest of quote]

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[P.B. Christensen]

> Wonder what supplies are being used with the K3?

Merv,

For the shack, I gave up on switch-mode power supplies since I could not
find one that produced a low noise floor on all bands.  For years, I was
unknowingly putting up with a high-level noise floor until I purchased the
SDR-IQ and began seeing broad "bumps" in the viewed spectra response.  The
bumps were attributed to switch mode power supplies, switch-mode wall
supplies, and some USB adapters.  By changing switch-mode back to old linear
technology and a combination of changing the USB adapters as well as using
multi-wound #31 ferrite cores (wound K9YC style) on both ends of the USB
cables, I finally have a flat noise floor on all bands.

I am sure there are quiet switch-mode supplies out there.  But with all the
other noise sources I have to contend with, I don't want to be asking myself
if some new grunge I'm hearing in the future is attributed to my power
supply.

My guess is that many of us are living with high noise floors from
switch-mode products and do not realize it -- until a PAN adapter is added
and the noise floor can be seen.  Spotting sharp switch-mode and LAN-type
grunge is easy without a PAN adapter, but it's the very broad noise (e.g.,
gentle rise and fall over 100 kHz) that's deceptive when one tunes the band.

The shack supply here is now a surplus linear Agilent 6652A.  These sell new
in the $4K range but are only a few hundred $$ if you catch the right
on-line sales for surplus product.

Paul, W9AC

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[Milt -- N5IA]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>

> I started to try and find the problem and using another
> receiver I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of noise.
> I have used this supply for some time and have not noticed the noise
> before.

Merv,

For weight considerations, the SS-30 supplies were selected for the Ducie
Island expedition this past year.

This problem you mention, or a very similar one, was evident during the
VP6DX expedition from the time that Robin started making tests while
underway on the Braveheart from ZL to FO.

We added extra filtering internally.

We grounded extensively.

We cleaned the case cover screw holes both on the main chassis and on the
cover to improve bonding to the cover.  We were never able to make them
clean.  All supplies performed in the exact same manner.

We were float charging small batteries to keep the K-3s and the ancillary
equipment running while the gensets were being refueled and having oil
changed.  The extra capacitance of the battery helped with the DC filtering
but most of the stuff was of a frequency that the battery and other
filtering could not remove.  And we couldn't keep it inside the case.

The fact remains that the harmonics of the switcher were a very real problem
for us, especially on the lower frequency bands.  The most annoying
situation was the harmonic signal moving around, slowly up and down the band
such that we could not avoid it at times when we were in the middle of a
tough one on 160 and were trying to dig it out of the noise floor.  We had
to wait until the birdie slowly slithered on by or many times I just reached
and turned the SS-30 off during a difficult contact.

73 de Milt, N5IA

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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[John W2XS]

 ""I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of noise. ""

For the past year, I have used an Astron RS-35A (linear = heavy) with excellent electrical results.  Just yesterday, I removed the power transformer mounting screws and added rubber equipment feet as isolators and remounted the transformer. This eliminated the annoying audible (not electrical) hum that I had been putting up with all this time.

73,

John W2XS

[Merv Schweigert]

Milt, N5IA wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>
>
>> I started to try and find the problem and using another
>> receiver I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of noise.
>> I have used this supply for some time and have not noticed the noise
>> before.
>
> Merv,
>
> For weight considerations, the SS-30 supplies were selected for the
> Ducie Island expedition this past year.
>
> This problem you mention, or a very similar one, was evident during
> the VP6DX expedition from the time that Robin started making tests
> while underway on the Braveheart from ZL to FO.
>
> We added extra filtering internally.
>
> We grounded extensively.
>
> We cleaned the case cover screw holes both on the main chassis and on
> the cover to improve bonding to the cover.  We were never able to make
> them clean.  All supplies performed in the exact same manner.
>
> We were float charging small batteries to keep the K-3s and the
> ancillary equipment running while the gensets were being refueled and
> having oil changed.  The extra capacitance of the battery helped with
> the DC filtering but most of the stuff was of a frequency that the
> battery and other filtering could not remove.  And we couldn't keep it
> inside the case.
>
> The fact remains that the harmonics of the switcher were a very real
> problem for us, especially on the lower frequency bands.  The most
> annoying situation was the harmonic signal moving around, slowly up
> and down the band such that we could not avoid it at times when we
> were in the middle of a tough one on 160 and were trying to dig it out
> of the noise floor.  We had to wait until the birdie slowly slithered
> on by or many times I just reached and turned the SS-30 off during a
> difficult contact.
>
> 73 de Milt, N5IA

... [show rest of quote]

The noise floor with the switchers has always been a problem,  but the
increase is what was
bugging me, and happy to have it confirmed  that they are somewhat
incurable,  thought it was just me,
have done about all that Milt describes and still has noise.
The past couple days its has just increased by 2 DB on the meter, in
other words on 20 meters
the K3 is hovering around s4 to s5 noise floor,  compared to turning off
the switchers and K3
and listening on a Ft-1000D it has a noise floor of S0.  
I guess its back to an old transformer supply,  had been trying to stay
away from that due to the
shipping weight etc.  Thanks for all the input.  
73 Merv KH7C
>
>

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[K7TV]

Merv,

My experience with the FT-1000D was that the S-meter didn't start to move
until the actual signal strength reached S-5 or so. But yes, I believe you
when you say that the switching power supply creates a lot of noise, and the
one in the FT-1000D doesn't.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>
To: "Milt, N5IA" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power supply

> Milt, N5IA wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>
>>
>>> I started to try and find the problem and using another
>>> receiver I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of noise.
>>> I have used this supply for some time and have not noticed the noise
>>> before.
>>
>> Merv,
>>
>> For weight considerations, the SS-30 supplies were selected for the
>> Ducie Island expedition this past year.
>>
>> This problem you mention, or a very similar one, was evident during
>> the VP6DX expedition from the time that Robin started making tests
>> while underway on the Braveheart from ZL to FO.
>>
>> We added extra filtering internally.
>>
>> We grounded extensively.
>>
>> We cleaned the case cover screw holes both on the main chassis and on
>> the cover to improve bonding to the cover.  We were never able to make
>> them clean.  All supplies performed in the exact same manner.
>>
>> We were float charging small batteries to keep the K-3s and the
>> ancillary equipment running while the gensets were being refueled and
>> having oil changed.  The extra capacitance of the battery helped with
>> the DC filtering but most of the stuff was of a frequency that the
>> battery and other filtering could not remove.  And we couldn't keep it
>> inside the case.
>>
>> The fact remains that the harmonics of the switcher were a very real
>> problem for us, especially on the lower frequency bands.  The most
>> annoying situation was the harmonic signal moving around, slowly up
>> and down the band such that we could not avoid it at times when we
>> were in the middle of a tough one on 160 and were trying to dig it out
>> of the noise floor.  We had to wait until the birdie slowly slithered
>> on by or many times I just reached and turned the SS-30 off during a
>> difficult contact.
>>
>> 73 de Milt, N5IA
> The noise floor with the switchers has always been a problem,  but the
> increase is what was
> bugging me, and happy to have it confirmed  that they are somewhat
> incurable,  thought it was just me,
> have done about all that Milt describes and still has noise.
> The past couple days its has just increased by 2 DB on the meter, in
> other words on 20 meters
> the K3 is hovering around s4 to s5 noise floor,  compared to turning off
> the switchers and K3
> and listening on a Ft-1000D it has a noise floor of S0.
> I guess its back to an old transformer supply,  had been trying to stay
> away from that due to the
> shipping weight etc.  Thanks for all the input.
> 73 Merv KH7C
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

... [show rest of quote]

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[Tom-5]

    If I may, there is a very simple, yet effective field day only
logging program:

http://www.qsl.net/kc8opv/squirl-fd/

    Very free. Run it on old laptops, it works just fine.

    tom K8TB

p.s., runs very well with K1's, K2's and K3's :)
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[Paul-285]

>The past couple of days I have noticed the noise level on the K3 has
>gone up a couple of S units and on 20 meters and there were tunable
>hash signals.    I started to try and find the problem and using another
>receiver I find the Astron SS-30 is generating all sorts of noise.

Have you checked the PC Board mounting/grounding screws?

On two SS-30's here, the PC Board mounting screws were loose, new,
right out of the box. And they all had a dab of paint on them.  Go figure.

Paul N4LCD

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[Jan Erik Holm]

Sorry but this is totally wrong. In this case your FT-1000D
was either broken or not aligned properly.
If you still have it align it per the service manual and
you will see something totally different.

73 Jim SM2EKM
------------------------------
Erik N Basilier wrote:

> Merv,
>
> My experience with the FT-1000D was that the S-meter didn't start to move
> until the actual signal strength reached S-5 or so. But yes, I believe you
> when you say that the switching power supply creates a lot of noise, and the
> one in the FT-1000D doesn't.
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV
>

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[K7TV]

Jim,

I take it you were commenting on the S-meter. I don't have the rig anymore;
I sold it to buy the K3. It was generally working very well, and it behaved
this way from day one (I bought it new around 1992) and I never saw a need
to align it.  The buyer has not complained. My statement was based on
starting at S-9 and applying attenuation 6 dB at a time. My memory may be
slightly off, but generally I saw the same behavior in the 1000D as in my
old IC-735. The meters would be quite good above S-7. Starting at S-7 and
attenuating another 6 dB they would indicate about S-5, and after another 6
dB the needle would be at 0. I remember memorizing this and using it to give
reports. Because it seemed so consistent between the two rigs, I formed the
opinion that it was the consensus of the manufacturers, and again saw no
reason to question the 1000D's alignment. Of course, with preamplification
on, the meter would start moving at a lower level, maybe S3. Over the years
I have seen comments in articles that have seemed to avoid generalizations
and instead said things like "S-meter calibrations vary a lot from receiver
to receiver". I wouldn't be surprised if Yaesu had changed the AGC
parameters sometime during the long production run.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Erik Holm" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power supply

> Sorry but this is totally wrong. In this case your FT-1000D
> was either broken or not aligned properly.
> If you still have it align it per the service manual and
> you will see something totally different.
>
> 73 Jim SM2EKM
> ------------------------------
> Erik N Basilier wrote:
>> Merv,
>>
>> My experience with the FT-1000D was that the S-meter didn't start to move
>> until the actual signal strength reached S-5 or so. But yes, I believe
>> you
>> when you say that the switching power supply creates a lot of noise, and
>> the
>> one in the FT-1000D doesn't.
>>
>> 73,
>> Erik K7TV
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

... [show rest of quote]

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[Bill W4ZV]

Erik you're correct.  The table below shows the FT-1000MP (not "D" but I bet very similar) has a nonlinear response in the low range of the meter.  Most rigs (other than the K3 and Flex 5000) have the identical problem.

http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%20Radio/Experimentation/SMeterBlues.htm

73,  Bill

K7TV wrote

Jim,

I take it you were commenting on the S-meter. I don't have the rig anymore;
I sold it to buy the K3. It was generally working very well, and it behaved
this way from day one (I bought it new around 1992) and I never saw a need
to align it.  The buyer has not complained. My statement was based on
starting at S-9 and applying attenuation 6 dB at a time. My memory may be
slightly off, but generally I saw the same behavior in the 1000D as in my
old IC-735. The meters would be quite good above S-7. Starting at S-7 and
attenuating another 6 dB they would indicate about S-5, and after another 6
dB the needle would be at 0. I remember memorizing this and using it to give
reports. Because it seemed so consistent between the two rigs, I formed the
opinion that it was the consensus of the manufacturers, and again saw no
reason to question the 1000D's alignment. Of course, with preamplification
on, the meter would start moving at a lower level, maybe S3. Over the years
I have seen comments in articles that have seemed to avoid generalizations
and instead said things like "S-meter calibrations vary a lot from receiver
to receiver". I wouldn't be surprised if Yaesu had changed the AGC
parameters sometime during the long production run.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Erik Holm" <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power supply


> Sorry but this is totally wrong. In this case your FT-1000D
> was either broken or not aligned properly.
> If you still have it align it per the service manual and
> you will see something totally different.
>
> 73 Jim SM2EKM
> ------------------------------
> Erik N Basilier wrote:
>> Merv,
>>
>> My experience with the FT-1000D was that the S-meter didn't start to move
>> until the actual signal strength reached S-5 or so. But yes, I believe
>> you
>> when you say that the switching power supply creates a lot of noise, and
>> the
>> one in the FT-1000D doesn't.
>>
>> 73,
>> Erik K7TV
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>


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... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

[Bill W4ZV]

Here's the FT-1000 meter...8 dB total difference from S5 to S1:

http://www.n6rk.com/FT1000_S_meter.doc

73,  Bill

Bill W4ZV wrote

Erik you're correct.  The table below shows the FT-1000MP (not "D" but I bet very similar) has a nonlinear response in the low range of the meter.  Most rigs (other than the K3 and Flex 5000) have the identical problem.

http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%20Radio/Experimentation/SMeterBlues.htm

73,  Bill

K7TV wrote

Jim,

I take it you were commenting on the S-meter. I don't have the rig anymore;
I sold it to buy the K3. It was generally working very well, and it behaved
this way from day one (I bought it new around 1992) and I never saw a need
to align it.  The buyer has not complained. My statement was based on
starting at S-9 and applying attenuation 6 dB at a time. My memory may be
slightly off, but generally I saw the same behavior in the 1000D as in my
old IC-735. The meters would be quite good above S-7. Starting at S-7 and
attenuating another 6 dB they would indicate about S-5, and after another 6
dB the needle would be at 0. I remember memorizing this and using it to give
reports. Because it seemed so consistent between the two rigs, I formed the
opinion that it was the consensus of the manufacturers, and again saw no
reason to question the 1000D's alignment. Of course, with preamplification
on, the meter would start moving at a lower level, maybe S3. Over the years
I have seen comments in articles that have seemed to avoid generalizations
and instead said things like "S-meter calibrations vary a lot from receiver
to receiver". I wouldn't be surprised if Yaesu had changed the AGC
parameters sometime during the long production run.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Erik Holm" <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power supply


> Sorry but this is totally wrong. In this case your FT-1000D
> was either broken or not aligned properly.
> If you still have it align it per the service manual and
> you will see something totally different.
>
> 73 Jim SM2EKM
> ------------------------------
> Erik N Basilier wrote:
>> Merv,
>>
>> My experience with the FT-1000D was that the S-meter didn't start to move
>> until the actual signal strength reached S-5 or so. But yes, I believe
>> you
>> when you say that the switching power supply creates a lot of noise, and
>> the
>> one in the FT-1000D doesn't.
>>
>> 73,
>> Erik K7TV
>>
>
>
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[Jan Erik Holm]

And this is not the point!!!
Read what K7TV wrote first and then what I
commented on.
Then K7TV started to rant about things beside
the point.

/ SM2EKM
------------------
Bill W4ZV wrote:

> Here's the FT-1000 meter...8 dB total difference from S5 to S1:
>
> http://www.n6rk.com/FT1000_S_meter.doc
>
> 73,  Bill
>
>
>
> Bill W4ZV wrote:
>> Erik you're correct.  The table below shows the FT-1000MP (not "D" but I
>> bet very similar) has a nonlinear response in the low range of the meter.
>> Most rigs (other than the K3 and Flex 5000) have the identical problem.
>>
>> http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%20Radio/Experimentation/SMeterBlues.htm
>>
>> 73,  Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> K7TV wrote:
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> I take it you were commenting on the S-meter. I don't have the rig
>>> anymore;
>>> I sold it to buy the K3. It was generally working very well, and it
>>> behaved
>>> this way from day one (I bought it new around 1992) and I never saw a
>>> need
>>> to align it.  The buyer has not complained. My statement was based on
>>> starting at S-9 and applying attenuation 6 dB at a time. My memory may be
>>> slightly off, but generally I saw the same behavior in the 1000D as in my
>>> old IC-735. The meters would be quite good above S-7. Starting at S-7 and
>>> attenuating another 6 dB they would indicate about S-5, and after another
>>> 6
>>> dB the needle would be at 0. I remember memorizing this and using it to
>>> give
>>> reports. Because it seemed so consistent between the two rigs, I formed
>>> the
>>> opinion that it was the consensus of the manufacturers, and again saw no
>>> reason to question the 1000D's alignment. Of course, with
>>> preamplification
>>> on, the meter would start moving at a lower level, maybe S3. Over the
>>> years
>>> I have seen comments in articles that have seemed to avoid
>>> generalizations
>>> and instead said things like "S-meter calibrations vary a lot from
>>> receiver
>>> to receiver". I wouldn't be surprised if Yaesu had changed the AGC
>>> parameters sometime during the long production run.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Erik K7TV
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jan Erik Holm" <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:25 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Power supply
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry but this is totally wrong. In this case your FT-1000D
>>>> was either broken or not aligned properly.
>>>> If you still have it align it per the service manual and
>>>> you will see something totally different.
>>>>
>>>> 73 Jim SM2EKM
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Erik N Basilier wrote:
>>>>> Merv,
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience with the FT-1000D was that the S-meter didn't start to
>>>>> move
>>>>> until the actual signal strength reached S-5 or so. But yes, I believe
>>>>> you
>>>>> when you say that the switching power supply creates a lot of noise,
>>>>> and
>>>>> the
>>>>> one in the FT-1000D doesn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Erik K7TV
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>

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