K3 Need for compressor
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It seems that without the compressor it is difficult to obtain full SSB
output. I'm listening to a guy right now on 160m in QSO. He had is compression on and as can be expected, was picking up plenty of fan noise from his amplifier. He was advised to "turn off the compression". This he did and the fan noise went away but he complained about insufficient drive to his amp and his K3 was only putting out 38 watts now. I don't have a decent peak reading wattmeter but I think weak RF output is a common complaint. I just wonder if Elecraft expects everyone to run some degree of compression? Or are we interpreting the PWR meter on the K3 incorrectly? Steve Ellington [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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n4lq wrote:
>It seems that without the compressor it is difficult to obtain full SSB >output. I'm listening to a guy right now on 160m in QSO. He had is >compression on and as can be expected, was picking up plenty of fan >noise from his amplifier. He was advised to "turn off the >compression". This he did and the fan noise went away but he complained >about insufficient drive to his amp and his K3 was only putting out 38 >watts now. >I don't have a decent peak reading wattmeter >but I think weak RF output is a common complaint. It's rather surprising that the K3 doesn't have the option of a peak-holding RF output display, like the S-meter has. >I just wonder if Elecraft expects everyone to run some degree of >compression? Or are we interpreting the PWR meter on the K3 incorrectly? Mainly the latter. When the K3 says "no compression", it's telling the truth. In contrast, most other rigs are using compression all the time - even when the speech processor is turned off - because there is peak limiting due to heavy ALC. The K3 is one of the few rigs that does it right... and because no good deed goes unpunished, it then suffers complaints of "weak audio"! To equal the compression that's always taking place in most other rigs, you probably *do* need to turn the K3's compression up a little. No harm in that - unlike most other rigs, a moderate amount of compression will simply make you sound louder. However, the complaint about fan noise is a valid one. As the compression is increased, the peak audio stays the same but the background noise comes up. Any transmitter with effective compression will also benefit from a "noise gate" or some other kind of nonlinear threshold, to reduce the noise background when there's no actual speech. This would be something like VOX, but with a different configurable threshold and hold/release dynamics. To obtain full value from the K3's highly effective compressor, could a noise gate be added to 'Lyle's List', please? -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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How about just using a good mic that is dead to its back and thus leaves out virtually all fan noise? Charles Harpole [hidden email] > Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 08:10:32 +0100 > To: [hidden email] > From: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for compressor > > n4lq wrote: >>It seems that without the compressor it is difficult to obtain full SSB >>output. I'm listening to a guy right now on 160m in QSO. He had is >>compression on and as can be expected, was picking up plenty of fan >>noise from his amplifier. He was advised to "turn off the >>compression". This he did and the fan noise went away but he complained >>about insufficient drive to his amp and his K3 was only putting out 38 >>watts now. >>I don't have a decent peak reading wattmeter >>but I think weak RF output is a common complaint. > > It's rather surprising that the K3 doesn't have the option of a > peak-holding RF output display, like the S-meter has. > >>I just wonder if Elecraft expects everyone to run some degree of >>compression? Or are we interpreting the PWR meter on the K3 incorrectly? > > Mainly the latter. > > When the K3 says "no compression", it's telling the truth. In contrast, > most other rigs are using compression all the time - even when the > speech processor is turned off - because there is peak limiting due to > heavy ALC. > > The K3 is one of the few rigs that does it right... and because no good > deed goes unpunished, it then suffers complaints of "weak audio"! To > equal the compression that's always taking place in most other rigs, you > probably *do* need to turn the K3's compression up a little. No harm in > that - unlike most other rigs, a moderate amount of compression will > simply make you sound louder. > > However, the complaint about fan noise is a valid one. As the > compression is increased, the peak audio stays the same but the > background noise comes up. Any transmitter with effective compression > will also benefit from a "noise gate" or some other kind of nonlinear > threshold, to reduce the noise background when there's no actual speech. > This would be something like VOX, but with a different configurable > threshold and hold/release dynamics. > > To obtain full value from the K3's highly effective compressor, could a > noise gate be added to 'Lyle's List', please? > > > -- > > 73 from Ian GM3SEK > http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by gm3sek
Hallo Ian,
> To obtain full value from the K3's highly effective compressor, could a > noise gate be added to 'Lyle's List', please? As one of the first to raise the SSB compression / "punchiness" / power level issue, I was in fairly close contact with Lyle, Wayne & co. about this for a while. At the time, I did suggest a noise gate, and believe that it is on the To-Do-List. However I am sure that they have more important things to deal with right now, i.e. secondary receiver, DVK etc. vy 73 de toby -- DD5FZ (ex 4n6fz, dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz) K2 #885 K2/100 #3248 K3/100 #67 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Charly
Charles Harpole wrote:
> >How about just using a good mic that is dead to its back and thus >leaves out virtually all fan noise? > > That only means you don't have a big enough amplifier yet :-) The main thing that reduces fan noise on the outgoing signal is close-talking and turning the mic gain down; but directional microphones then suffer from proximity effects, giving too much emphasis on the bass (cue Jim Brown). And anyway, the fan noise doesn't usually come from behind the microphone. In most shack layouts the amplifier is off to one side, and the noise bounces off the walls and ceiling, and arrives at the mic from all directions. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by gm3sek
Hello Ian!
> ... Any transmitter with effective compression > will also benefit from a "noise gate" or some other kind of nonlinear > threshold, to reduce the noise background when there's no actual speech. > This would be something like VOX, but with a different configurable > threshold and hold/release dynamics. > > To obtain full value from the K3's highly effective compressor, could a > noise gate be added to 'Lyle's List', please? Instead of a Noise Gate with two or three variables, I've implemented an *experimental* Downward Expander with a single variable (threshold). It certainly kills the background noise here! We're listening... Lyle KK7P PS - Not sure when it'll be in the release code. Higher priority items in the queue at the moment. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N4LQ-2
Steve,
I think something must be wrong because both of my K3s peak to 100W without compression. When I use the COMP (which I do for contesting), it spanks the **** out of my amps. Still no distortion in either case. I'm using the Heil #4 and #5 elements in the Pro-Headset Bob K5WA K3 #234 and #752 ***************************** Message: 10 Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:20:23 -0400 From: "n4lq" <[hidden email]> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Need for compressor To: <[hidden email]> Message-ID: <00e701c8c13a$eec60d40$be691dac@Steve> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original It seems that without the compressor it is difficult to obtain full SSB output. I'm listening to a guy right now on 160m in QSO. He had is compression on and as can be expected, was picking up plenty of fan noise from his amplifier. He was advised to "turn off the compression". This he did and the fan noise went away but he complained about insufficient drive to his amp and his K3 was only putting out 38 watts now. I don't have a decent peak reading wattmeter but I think weak RF output is a common complaint. I just wonder if Elecraft expects everyone to run some degree of compression? Or are we interpreting the PWR meter on the K3 incorrectly? Steve Ellington [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by KK7P
Intriguing idea, Lyle.
Could you "expand" on it a bit? 73, Bob N6WG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Johnson" <[hidden email]> To: "Ian White GM3SEK" <[hidden email]> Cc: <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for compressor > Hello Ian! > > > ... Any transmitter with effective compression > > will also benefit from a "noise gate" or some other kind of nonlinear > > threshold, to reduce the noise background when there's no actual speech. > > This would be something like VOX, but with a different configurable > > threshold and hold/release dynamics. > > > > To obtain full value from the K3's highly effective compressor, could a > > noise gate be added to 'Lyle's List', please? > > Instead of a Noise Gate with two or three variables, I've implemented an > *experimental* Downward Expander with a single variable (threshold). It > certainly kills the background noise here! > > We're listening... > > Lyle KK7P > > PS - Not sure when it'll be in the release code. Higher priority items > in the queue at the moment. > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 Need for compressor
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In reply to this post by KK7P
Lyle Johnson wrote:
> ... > Instead of a Noise Gate with two or three variables, I've implemented > an *experimental* Downward Expander with a single variable > (threshold). It certainly kills the background noise here! ... > We're listening... This would be welcome addition to the K3. Noise gates have been unsatisfactory in my experience, usually being difficult to set up and introducing unwanted clicks and abrupt level changes into the audio stream. A smooth operating downward expander is a far better choice. I currently use a Behringer VX-2000 to drive the microphone input via a -20db voltage pad. My primary reasons for using the unit are the downward expander and the flexible input circuit for balanced microphones (and phantom power if needed). I hope your experiment becomes K3 feature at some point. Gus Hansen KB0YH _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by n6wg
> Intriguing idea, Lyle.
> Could you "expand" on it a bit? Go to < URL:http://www.dxatlas.com/VShaper/ > and scroll down the page at the last few graphs. 73, Lyle kK7P _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Augie "Gus" Hansen
I'm sure that one of the fans on the back of my new K3 is noisier than it
should be, as if the bearings are wearing. Even at the lowest level it is a bit annoying, especially as folks were saying how quiet the radio is in this respect. Has anyone else experienced this? 73 Stephen K3 s/n 980 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Stephen
Something is not right because you shouldn't hear fan noise. Mine is real quiet, so quiet early on I checked to see if it was running. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Prior" <[hidden email]> To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 2:46 PM Subject: [Elecraft] K3 noisy fan? > I'm sure that one of the fans on the back of my new K3 is noisier than it > should be, as if the bearings are wearing. Even at the lowest level it is > a > bit annoying, especially as folks were saying how quiet the radio is in > this > respect. > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > 73 Stephen > > K3 s/n 980 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Stephen Prior
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Ron and others
Thanks. I've identified the fan, it's the one with the short lead. It's definitely noisier than the other, and it's not an air type noise of the sound that comes from the blades contacting anything, it just sounds like bearings to me. I'll email support. It's not a show stopper. Thanks all 73 Stephen G4SJP On 29/05/2008 20:09, "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]> wrote: > It should be whisper quiet, especially at low speeds. > > Be sure nothing is touching the fan. Sometimes a wire can get pushed into > the "finger guard" or, just inside the rear panel, the circuit breaker > wiring might be pushed over where it can touch a spinning hub or blades. > > If it's a factory built K3 and you've not had the cover off to peek inside, > that's every easy. Nine of the flat head screws on top release the cover. > There's a drawing in Appendix A to your Owner's manual that shows exactly > which screws to remove. > > If that doesn't bring relief, a note to [hidden email] certainly > will! > > Ron AC7AC > > > -----Original Message----- > > I'm sure that one of the fans on the back of my new K3 is noisier than it > should be, as if the bearings are wearing. Even at the lowest level it is a > bit annoying, especially as folks were saying how quiet the radio is in this > respect. > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > 73 Stephen > > K3 s/n 980 > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 Need for compressor?
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In reply to this post by gm3sek
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that if a guy is complaining about
your shack noise being heard between your sentences or even words, it simply means that your signal, to this guy, is extremely strong, and he has his AGC set too fast, so that it tries to follow the audo waveform. Inreasing the AGC time constant (setting it to "medium" to "slow") and/or kicking in the attenuator and/or turning off the preamp, or some combination of these, typically solves the problem (assuming the K3 TX really is set up properly -- not too much mic gain / compression, etc.). Guys have been amazed at how much better I sound after I tell them this. :-) Of course, approaching the issue from the K3 TX side is completely valid as well. Bill W5WVO Ian White GM3SEK wrote: > Charles Harpole wrote: >> >> How about just using a good mic that is dead to its back and thus >> leaves out virtually all fan noise? >> >> > That only means you don't have a big enough amplifier yet :-) > > The main thing that reduces fan noise on the outgoing signal is > close-talking and turning the mic gain down; but directional > microphones then suffer from proximity effects, giving too much > emphasis on the bass (cue Jim Brown). > > And anyway, the fan noise doesn't usually come from behind the > microphone. In most shack layouts the amplifier is off to one side, > and the noise bounces off the walls and ceiling, and arrives at the > mic from all directions. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by KK7P
If we are talking about modifying the K3 transmit audio, we also
might want to look at installing a "phase rotator", or "phase scrambler". Most male voices are very asymmetrical. This presents a real problem with broadcast radio, especially AM. With US AM transmission, you are allowed 100% negative modulation, and 125% positive modulation. With a proper AM transmitter and audio chain, and the 125% positive limiter disabled, and the right "type" of a male voice, you can get 175-200% positive modulation while never exceeding 100% negative. Flip the polarity of the audio driving the transmitter, and you will cause carrier clipping on the negative modulation, while never going over 60-75% positive modulation. The broadcast equipment manufactures will many times look at the asymmetrical waveform and flip the polarity of the audio signal. Today, most stations depend on the microphone processor to balance out the microphone audio, by simple phase scrambling of the low end of the audio. This effect smooths out the sound of many male voices. I can turn the phase rotator on and off on my radio stations microphone processors off (Symetrix 528e's), and my announcers will complain that their voices sound a little "brittle". If you have ever look at your SSB signal on an oscilloscope, you may have noticed that the waveform goes higher in one direction than another. It might be interesting to experiment with external processors on the effect, or lack of effect that phase scrambling might do for SSB. You can read up on how you can do this at several places: W3AM does a good job at: http://www.w3am.com/8poleapf.html http://www.nu9n.com/am.html http://www.omniaaudio.com/tech/speech.htm http://www.euphonicmasters.com/orban_article.php pdf of above at: http://www.orban.com/support/orban/techtopics/Appdx_Radio_Ready_The_Truth_1.3.pdf tom bosscher K8TB _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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