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K3 Notch

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John_N1JM

K3 Notch

I hardly ever use notch. I recently noticed that the notch doesn't reduce the carrier as shown on the S-meter. Is it not in the agc loop?

John N1JM

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: K3 Notch

No. This question comes up once in a while. Lyle made a couple of
statements on the subject in a past thread:

http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg62779.html

and

http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg62885.html

Perhaps it's "on the list" for future consideration.

Bob NW8L

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:23 AM, N1JM <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I hardly ever use notch. I recently noticed that the notch doesn't reduce the
> carrier as shown on the S-meter. Is it not in the agc loop?
>
> John N1JM
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Notch-tp4963433p4963433.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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ab2tc

Re: K3 Notch

I use the notch frequently. I am curious as to why it appears so difficult to bring it inside the AGC loop. Perhaps the auto notch is problematic, but the manual notch is just another filter box just like the main brick wall filter. This is pretty high on my wish list as I use the notch filter often when the inevitable tunerupper appears on top of a DX's frequency.

AB2TC - Knut

Bob Cunnings wrote

No. This question comes up once in a while. Lyle made a couple of
statements on the subject in a past thread:

http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg62779.html

and

http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg62885.html

Perhaps it's "on the list" for future consideration.

Bob NW8L

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:23 AM, N1JM <johnn1jm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I hardly ever use notch. I recently noticed that the notch doesn't reduce the
> carrier as shown on the S-meter. Is it not in the agc loop?
<snip>

Gary Bartlett VE1RGB

Re: K3 Notch

...and while they are at it (Wayne told me it was on the list), do something
to make it easier for us CW contester ops to use Notch. I wish, when one
first turned on Notch, that the default frequency turned up anywhere except
at the very extreme upper end of its range where, unfortunately, it is of no
value to me. By the time I dial the notch from 2000HZ to down to where I
need it, it's too late when things are moving quickly. I have found that
there are contesting occasions in which use of the Notch into a wide filter
is a better solution than very narrowed filters.

When in CW Mode it should default to somewhere closer to where a person
needs it -- i.e., inside the limits of whatever filter is in play. Or why
not default to the rig's selected side-tone pitch? That way an op would
know exactly where to go with the Notch control when first turned on. Even
if the *Notch Go-to-2000HZ* command were turned OFF inside the radio and the
Notch left where last used would be better. Anything.

I believe that I can show that the K3 Notch was better when the rig was
first new, before an early firmware update came along and broke it by moving
the CW Notch default up to 2Khz. This is the first radio that I've owned in
which I have used the Notch and found Lyle's work so satisfying that I've
worked that control into the way I operate (when I think of it). I bet
it's wasted on a lot CW ops because it is slow and awkward to employ.

Here's an ergonomic issue: I sometimes wonder if the Notch switch could be
changed such that it goes into the Manual Adjust mode with a PUSH of the
Notch button, rather than requiring a HOLD because, for whatever reason, my
first attempt at using the Notch button invariably is usually wrong, and
besides my way is faster.

Gary, VE1RGB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ab2tc
Sent: April 26, 2010 4:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Notch

I use the notch frequently. I am curious as to why it appears so difficult
to
bring it inside the AGC loop. Perhaps the auto notch is problematic, but the
manual notch is just another filter box just like the main brick wall
filter. This is pretty high on my wish list as I use the notch filter often
when the inevitable tunerupper appears on top of a DX's frequency.

AB2TC - Knut

Bob Cunnings wrote:

>
> No. This question comes up once in a while. Lyle made a couple of
> statements on the subject in a past thread:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg62779.html
>
> and
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg62885.html
>
> Perhaps it's "on the list" for future consideration.
>
> Bob NW8L
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:23 AM, N1JM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I hardly ever use notch. I recently noticed that the notch doesn't reduce
>> the
>> carrier as shown on the S-meter. Is it not in the agc loop?
> <snip>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Notch-tp4963433p4964378.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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David Cutter

Re: K3 Notch

I would go for default to the sidetone frequency
David
G3UNA

>
> ...and while they are at it (Wayne told me it was on the list), do
> something
> to make it easier for us CW contester ops to use Notch. I wish, when one
> first turned on Notch, that the default frequency turned up anywhere
> except
> at the very extreme upper end of its range where, unfortunately, it is of
> no
> value to me. By the time I dial the notch from 2000HZ to down to where I
> need it, it's too late when things are moving quickly. I have found that
> there are contesting occasions in which use of the Notch into a wide
> filter
> is a better solution than very narrowed filters.
>
> When in CW Mode it should default to somewhere closer to where a person
> needs it -- i.e., inside the limits of whatever filter is in play. Or why
> not default to the rig's selected side-tone pitch? That way an op would
> know exactly where to go with the Notch control when first turned on.
> Even
> if the *Notch Go-to-2000HZ* command were turned OFF inside the radio and
> the
> Notch left where last used would be better. Anything.
>
> I believe that I can show that the K3 Notch was better when the rig was
> first new, before an early firmware update came along and broke it by
> moving
> the CW Notch default up to 2Khz. This is the first radio that I've owned
> in
> which I have used the Notch and found Lyle's work so satisfying that I've
> worked that control into the way I operate (when I think of it). I bet
> it's wasted on a lot CW ops because it is slow and awkward to employ.
>
> Here's an ergonomic issue: I sometimes wonder if the Notch switch could
> be
> changed such that it goes into the Manual Adjust mode with a PUSH of the
> Notch button, rather than requiring a HOLD because, for whatever reason,
> my
> first attempt at using the Notch button invariably is usually wrong, and
> besides my way is faster.
>
> Gary, VE1RGB
>
>
> -----Original

John_N1JM

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

It's a shame. Such a sophisticated high end radio and no notch within the agc loop.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 Notch

On 4/26/2010 7:30 PM, N1JM wrote:
>
> It's a shame. Such a sophisticated high end radio and no notch within the agc
> loop.

Part of the problem is that a DSP radio needs to have the notch after
the AGC since part of the function of AGC is preventing the ADC from
being over driven. If the notch is placed BEFORE the AGC detector
the notch will cause the interfering signal to INCREASE at the input
of the ADC.

Yes, it would be nice for the notch to allow the receiver to return
to normal gain when the interfering signal is removed but that would
merely cause the HAGC to come into play.

73,

... Joe, W4TV
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John_N1JM

Re: K3 Notch

I wonder how the other radios like an IC-7600 can get away with
putting it within the agc loop.

John N1JM

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV-4 [via Elecraft]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 4/26/2010 7:30 PM, N1JM wrote:
>>
>> It's a shame. Such a sophisticated high end radio and no notch within the
>> agc
>> loop.
>
> Part of the problem is that a DSP radio needs to have the notch after
> the AGC since part of the function of AGC is preventing the ADC from
> being over driven. If the notch is placed BEFORE the AGC detector
> the notch will cause the interfering signal to INCREASE at the input
> of the ADC.
>
> Yes, it would be nice for the notch to allow the receiver to return
> to normal gain when the interfering signal is removed but that would
> merely cause the HAGC to come into play.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
>
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> To unsubscribe from Re: K3 Notch, click here.
>

W8JI

Re: K3 Notch

I wonder how the other radios like an IC-7600 can get away
with
putting it within the agc loop.>>

Maybe because nobody notices something else that goes bad.

Life is often full of compromises. If we give up something
like close-spaced dynamic range or better AGC performance,
it can sometimes allow us to do the more obscure things we
would use 1% of the time. :-)

Sometimes engineers overlook something they could have done,
and sometimes they don't want to compromise something most
people would find more important.

73 Tom

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by John_N1JM

> I wonder how the other radios like an IC-7600 can get away with
> putting it within the agc loop.

Perhaps they're using a fixed level of hardware AGC ahead of the
ADC or intentionally holding the level to the ADC well below
saturation (forfeiting dynamic range) to prevent a strong
interfering signal from clipping.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/26/2010 7:50 PM, N1JM wrote:

>
> I wonder how the other radios like an IC-7600 can get away with
> putting it within the agc loop.
>
> John N1JM
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV-4 [via Elecraft]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 4/26/2010 7:30 PM, N1JM wrote:
>>>
>>> It's a shame. Such a sophisticated high end radio and no notch within the
>>> agc
>>> loop.
>>
>> Part of the problem is that a DSP radio needs to have the notch after
>> the AGC since part of the function of AGC is preventing the ADC from
>> being over driven. If the notch is placed BEFORE the AGC detector
>> the notch will cause the interfering signal to INCREASE at the input
>> of the ADC.
>>
>> Yes, it would be nice for the notch to allow the receiver to return
>> to normal gain when the interfering signal is removed but that would
>> merely cause the HAGC to come into play.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> View message @
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Notch-tp4963433p4965758.html
>> To unsubscribe from Re: K3 Notch, click here.
>>
>

n7ws

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

The notch is just another DSP filter. We (the K3) use(s) DSP filters all of the time that are narrower than the front end filter and that remove signals or part of signals that should not generate DSP AGC.

In the event the interfering signal is strong enough to overload the second mixer, then the hardware AGC kicks in. No different from any other situation.

Wes N7WS

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/26/2010 7:30 PM, N1JM wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame. Such a sophisticated high end radio and
> no notch within the agc
> > loop.
>
> Part of the problem is that a DSP radio needs to have the
> notch after
> the AGC since part of the function of AGC is preventing the
> ADC from
> being over driven. If the notch is placed BEFORE the
> AGC detector
> the notch will cause the interfering signal to INCREASE at
> the input
> of the ADC.
>
> Yes, it would be nice for the notch to allow the receiver
> to return
> to normal gain when the interfering signal is removed but
> that would
> merely cause the HAGC to come into play.
>
> 73,

Val-12

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by Gary Bartlett VE1RGB

I second that. There are a lot of turning to bring the notch from 2000 Hz to
near my pitch of 390 Hz. I would suggest the manual notch to be parked just
outside of the used AF band. I.e. when the width is 200Hz and pitch is
400Hz, the notch may wait comfortably on 550Hz.

73 Val LZ1VB

> ...and while they are at it (Wayne told me it was on the list), do
> something to make it easier for us CW contester ops to use Notch.
>I wish, when one first turned on Notch, that the default frequency
>turned up anywhere except at the very extreme upper end of its
>range where, unfortunately, it is of no value to me. By the time
>I dial the notch from 2000HZ to down to where I need it, it's too
>late when things are moving quickly. I have found that there are
>contesting occasions in which use of the Notch into a wide
> filter is a better solution than very narrowed filters.
>
> Gary, VE1RGB

N2TK

Re: K3 Notch

How about if the manual notch remembered where it was the last time you used
it. That would seem to be a good starting point?

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Val
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:50 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Notch

I second that. There are a lot of turning to bring the notch from 2000 Hz to
near my pitch of 390 Hz. I would suggest the manual notch to be parked just
outside of the used AF band. I.e. when the width is 200Hz and pitch is
400Hz, the notch may wait comfortably on 550Hz.

73 Val LZ1VB

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by Val-12

On 4/27/2010 10:50 AM, Val wrote:
> I second that. There are a lot of turning to bring the notch from
> 2000 Hz to near my pitch of 390 Hz.

Think about it for a minute ... the notch remembers its last used
frequency except for the first time it is used after the K3 is
turned on. It it's that critical to you, simply turn on the notch
and set it to 600-800 Hz when you turn on the radio.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Gary Bartlett VE1RGB

Re: K3 Notch

Change the firmware, or add an uncommon procedural step?
I'm getting too old to remember stuff, Joe. Let the radio do the work.

73,
Gary, VE1RGB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: April 27, 2010 12:15 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Notch

On 4/27/2010 10:50 AM, Val wrote:
> I second that. There are a lot of turning to bring the notch from
> 2000 Hz to near my pitch of 390 Hz.

Think about it for a minute ... the notch remembers its last used
frequency except for the first time it is used after the K3 is
turned on. It it's that critical to you, simply turn on the notch
and set it to 600-800 Hz when you turn on the radio.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 Notch [END of Thread]

Administrator

Wayne has added this to his f/w list. Let's end the notch freq preset
thread for now.

73, Eric

On 4/27/2010 9:17 AM, gary bartlett wrote:

> Change the firmware, or add an uncommon procedural step?
> I'm getting too old to remember stuff, Joe. Let the radio do the work.
>
> 73,
> Gary, VE1RGB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: April 27, 2010 12:15 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Notch
>
>
> On 4/27/2010 10:50 AM, Val wrote:
> > I second that. There are a lot of turning to bring the notch from
> > 2000 Hz to near my pitch of 390 Hz.
>
> Think about it for a minute ... the notch remembers its last used
> frequency except for the first time it is used after the K3 is
> turned on. It it's that critical to you, simply turn on the notch
> and set it to 600-800 Hz when you turn on the radio.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> .
>

Gary Bartlett VE1RGB

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by John_N1JM

Little guy 100W CW contester's perspective only, Joe. I REALLY NEED that
notch about once per every 500 Qs. Once a contest, say. I'll never train
myself to set the radio up to compensate for an odd and unnecessary K3
attribute on the basis of that frequency of use. I think my contest
preparation time could be better spent other than remembering untraditional
manual work-arounds which could be easily automated. Neither do I have the
time nor the presence of mind to figure out how to use the notch feature all
over again in every contest. Accordingly, the K3 Notch goes too often
unused here. Pity. Not a fine point to me, anyway, because my 100W and
wires need all the help they can get, and missing a multiplier for want of a
quickly accessible K3 notch would be a real shame.

As for the compromise frequency argument, that's nice, but it still makes no
sense from a CW guy's point of view. A notch up in the SSB/audio range
doesn't work well for us. We are still miles and numerous knob twists away
from where we want to be.

As a separate issue, I still see nothing wrong with my argument that if the
K3 is in CW mode, one should be able to go directly into and out of Notch
Manual Adjust by either a TAP or a HOLD. The middle position of Notch TAP,
which produces a fixed/can't-adjust-it/same-as-last-time notch, is not
necessary. My approach is faster of its own merit, and it also eliminates
the lost time when a guy forgets which is which when he makes that rare
Notch selection.

No big deal, anyway. I just like Lyle's notch, it has occasional genuine
value to a CW op, and I think Elecraft should facilitate its use because
it's a K3 attribute. And besides, Wayne promised. I convinced him of the
default frequency change some time ago, he told me it was on the list, and I
believe him.

Someone else started this K3 Notch thing recently and I just took the
opportunity to pile on to elevate the visibility of my own selfish wants
(I've seen it done before). It's been on the list quite a while, although I
recognize that the needs of this station are likely much different from the
majority. Perhaps I should now give the channel remote control back to its
original owners, especially since my day-pass from the Institution for
Unstable Contester's has nearly expired.

73,

Gary, VE1RGB

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: April 27, 2010 1:35 PM
To: gary bartlett ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Notch

It's set the notch the first time you use it ... what's hard

about that...as it is, the notch defaults to the

middle of its 200 - 3900 Hz range - that's not a bad design.

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George & Jan

Re: K3 Notch

In reply to this post by David Cutter

Please keep tap for Auto at least in SSB
George
AI4VZ

I would go for default to the sidetone frequency
David
G3UNA

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