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K3: Odd ALC behavior

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

I did a spot sweep in 100 Hz steps from 1000 Hz to 2000 Hz using TUNE
function on WSJT-X. I observed, depending on frequency of the tone, the
value of ALC indicated does change. This to me indicates the uniformity
of the filter does show some ripple across the top. This is normal in
my thinking.

So when setting levels, select a mid range tone and let the others fall
where they may. In any event, you won't be far from the ideal level.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 8/4/2017 1:16 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Please post resultd from WSJT-X, as that is what I am using. I have
> noted that tune, vs. actual outputs act differently... THANK YOU!
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
>

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Brian Hunt

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by Brian Hunt

Here's some followup:
FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500,
and 2000 Hz.
WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500
and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).

The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the
output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3
filter center frequency has no effect on the above.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:

> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope
> today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB
> soundcard output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in
> TUNE mode was rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the
> level oscillated in time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed
> with a stop watch). At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy
> load was rock solid at a selected 10 watts.
>
> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz
> and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to
> the desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and
> verified) that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I
> changed the filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI
> frequency around but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>
> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this
> out to the group.
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>

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Richard Lamont

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

On 04/08/17 19:33, Brian Hunt wrote:
> Here's some followup:
> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500,
> and 2000 Hz.
> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500
> and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>
> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the
> output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3
> filter center frequency has no effect on the above.

This looks like a beat between the modulating frequency and some
sampling process associated with the ALC meter.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Mike Harris-9

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by NK7Z

A blast from the past, it's been 17 years since I was involved with this
stuff.

In E1 PCM multi channel voice transmission systems the standard test
tone was 1024Hz so as not to interact with the 8kHz sampling rate.

This is not a fault but a fact of life.

Maybe the designers would care to mention the DSP sampling rate for the
TX audio.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 04/08/2017 15:46, Richard Lamont wrote:
> On 04/08/17 19:33, Brian Hunt wrote:
>> Here's some followup:
>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500,
>> and 2000 Hz.
>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500
>> and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>
>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the
>> output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3
>> filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>
> This looks like a beat between the modulating frequency and some
> sampling process associated with the ALC meter.
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by Brian Hunt

Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.

This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some of us
have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?

Wes, N7WS

On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:

> Here's some followup:
> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500, and
> 2000 Hz.
> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500 and
> 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>
> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the output and
> ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3 filter center
> frequency has no effect on the above.
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today. I
>> had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard output to the
>> K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock solid.
>> Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in time with the
>> ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch). At the same time
>> the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at a selected 10 watts.
>>
>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and the
>> "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the desired 4
>> bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified) that the
>> default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the filter center
>> frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around but couldn't
>> reproduce the "pumping".
>>
>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this out to
>> the group.
>>
>> 73,
>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>
>
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>

wayne burdick

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Administrator

Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.

Wayne
N6KR

> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>
> This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some of us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
>
> Wes, N7WS
>
>
> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>> Here's some followup:
>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000 Hz.
>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500 and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>
>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3 filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>
>> 73,
>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>
>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch). At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at a selected 10 watts.
>>>
>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified) that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>
>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this out to the group.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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Brian Hunt

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

The "TUNE" tones from both applications (FLDIGI & WSJT-X) looks like a single frequency and is a pretty decent sine wave on the scope, although "pretty decent" is hard to quantify. It's more like the 500 Hz and its harmonics are beating with some process within the K3. The "pulsing " isn't apparent in the RF output power, at least as far as I can measure, so it may just be an audio artifact. Moving off those frequencies is certainly a work around for setting the audio drive level.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

> On Aug 4, 2017, at 16:45, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>>

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,

There are no beat notes. These frequencies, at least from the FT8 program in
Tune mode are single frequency. Based upon output RF spectrum measurements*,
with for example 1010 Hz input and 4-5 bars of ALC, I see spurious or
intermodulation sidebands, down -65 dBc. If I change nothing else but adjust
the tone frequency to 1000 Hz the spectrum is the same but the ALC bars are
cyclic, going from none to 4-5, at about the 2 HZ rate Brian reported earlier.
(Slow ALC in action?) That's the good news.

If I set the tone to 1500 Hz, the FT8 mid-band target, I'm presented with the
cyclic ALC and some ~193 Hz, -50 dBc sidebands.

I have tried this with both the K3S internal sound card and via Line In/Out into
my laptop sound card. The results are more-or-less the same. But IMHO, you
need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal sound card; it is
way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at less than 5% and Line
In at 10 or less.

I would suggest that you do some measurements with a low-distortion sine wave
audio source run into the radio to eliminate the possibility that this junk is a
result of all of the digitally generated tones.

If this (what I will call a) problem continues to exist then I think a fix is in
order. Expecting users to select particular frequencies to use to set gain
levels isn't an acceptable workaround.

Regards,

Wes N7WS

* My "spectrum analyzer" is my SDR-IQ which I have used to measure TX IMD on
both my K3 and K3S. Your IMD
measurements on my K3S concurred with mine within 1 dB or less.

On 8/4/2017 4:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>>
>> This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some of us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
>>
>> Wes, N7WS
>>
>>
>> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>> Here's some followup:
>>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000 Hz.
>>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500 and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>>
>>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3 filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>
>>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch). At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at a selected 10 watts.
>>>>
>>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified) that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>>
>>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this out to the group.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>

EUGENE GABRY

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

I agree with Wes on his below statement. Same here exactly.

Gene

N9TF

>
> On August 5, 2017 at 10:14 AM Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I have tried this with both the K3S internal sound card and via Line In/Out into
> my laptop sound card. The results are more-or-less the same. But IMHO, you
> need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal sound card; it is
> way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at less than 5% and Line
> In at 10 or less.
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the
> internal sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the
> Windows gain at less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.

Actually, you need to adjust the options in the Windows *.inf file
used for the PCM-series CODEC (or use the codec that identifies as
line level). Windows is turning on a 20 dB preamp in the CODEC.

I suspect if one sets the Windows Sound Options (Control Panel) to
display dB rather than percentage, the minimum level will be some-
thing like 16 to 20 dB! That indicated the fixed 20 dB "mic preamp"
is engaged.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> There are no beat notes. These frequencies, at least from the FT8
> program in Tune mode are single frequency. Based upon output RF
> spectrum measurements*, with for example 1010 Hz input and 4-5 bars of
> ALC, I see spurious or intermodulation sidebands, down -65 dBc. If I
> change nothing else but adjust the tone frequency to 1000 Hz the
> spectrum is the same but the ALC bars are cyclic, going from none to
> 4-5, at about the 2 HZ rate Brian reported earlier. (Slow ALC in
> action?) That's the good news.
>
> If I set the tone to 1500 Hz, the FT8 mid-band target, I'm presented
> with the cyclic ALC and some ~193 Hz, -50 dBc sidebands.
>
> I have tried this with both the K3S internal sound card and via Line
> In/Out into my laptop sound card. The results are more-or-less the
> same. But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the
> internal sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the
> Windows gain at less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>
> I would suggest that you do some measurements with a low-distortion sine
> wave audio source run into the radio to eliminate the possibility that
> this junk is a result of all of the digitally generated tones.
>
> If this (what I will call a) problem continues to exist then I think a
> fix is in order. Expecting users to select particular frequencies to
> use to set gain levels isn't an acceptable workaround.
>
> Regards,
>
> Wes N7WS
>
>
> * My "spectrum analyzer" is my SDR-IQ which I have used to measure TX
> IMD on both my K3 and K3S. Your IMD
> measurements on my K3S concurred with mine within 1 dB or less.
>
> On 8/4/2017 4:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is
>> what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off
>> the standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>>
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>>>
>>> This probably explains the great variability in results reported.
>>> Some of us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you
>>> talking about?
>>>
>>> Wes, N7WS
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>> Here's some followup:
>>>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000,
>>>> 1500, and 2000 Hz.
>>>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000,
>>>> 1500 and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>>>
>>>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the
>>>> output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the
>>>> K3 filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>
>>>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope
>>>>> today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB
>>>>> soundcard output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI
>>>>> in TUNE mode was rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3,
>>>>> the level oscillated in time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz
>>>>> (timed with a stop watch). At the same time the K3 power output
>>>>> into a dummy load was rock solid at a selected 10 watts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz
>>>>> and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC
>>>>> to the desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered
>>>>> (and verified) that the default filter center in DATA A mode is
>>>>> 1500 Hz. I changed the filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved
>>>>> the FLDIGI frequency around but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>>>
>>>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get
>>>>> this out to the group.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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ng7m

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Joe, are you talking about the wdma_usb.inf file to disable the 20 dB mic
boost? I have been searching around for details on making the inf change
in Windows 10. I may be missing something in the search, but if you have
modified the inf file for Windows 10, I would be really helpful if you have
more details. I looked carefully through wdma_usb.inf and I can't see
anything obvious. From windows 10 in my case.

Max NG7M

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>
>> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal
>> sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at
>> less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>>
>
> Actually, you need to adjust the options in the Windows *.inf file
> used for the PCM-series CODEC (or use the codec that identifies as
> line level). Windows is turning on a 20 dB preamp in the CODEC.
>
> I suspect if one sets the Windows Sound Options (Control Panel) to
> display dB rather than percentage, the minimum level will be some-
> thing like 16 to 20 dB! That indicated the fixed 20 dB "mic preamp"
> is engaged.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>
>> Wayne,
>>
>> There are no beat notes. These frequencies, at least from the FT8 program
>> in Tune mode are single frequency. Based upon output RF spectrum
>> measurements*, with for example 1010 Hz input and 4-5 bars of ALC, I see
>> spurious or intermodulation sidebands, down -65 dBc. If I change nothing
>> else but adjust the tone frequency to 1000 Hz the spectrum is the same but
>> the ALC bars are cyclic, going from none to 4-5, at about the 2 HZ rate
>> Brian reported earlier. (Slow ALC in action?) That's the good news.
>>
>> If I set the tone to 1500 Hz, the FT8 mid-band target, I'm presented with
>> the cyclic ALC and some ~193 Hz, -50 dBc sidebands.
>>
>> I have tried this with both the K3S internal sound card and via Line
>> In/Out into my laptop sound card. The results are more-or-less the same.
>> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal
>> sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at
>> less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>>
>> I would suggest that you do some measurements with a low-distortion sine
>> wave audio source run into the radio to eliminate the possibility that this
>> junk is a result of all of the digitally generated tones.
>>
>> If this (what I will call a) problem continues to exist then I think a
>> fix is in order. Expecting users to select particular frequencies to use
>> to set gain levels isn't an acceptable workaround.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>
>> * My "spectrum analyzer" is my SDR-IQ which I have used to measure TX IMD
>> on both my K3 and K3S. Your IMD
>> measurements on my K3S concurred with mine within 1 dB or less.
>>
>> On 8/4/2017 4:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>
>>> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is
>>> what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the
>>> standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>>>>
>>>> This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some
>>>> of us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
>>>>
>>>> Wes, N7WS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here's some followup:
>>>>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000,
>>>>> 1500, and 2000 Hz.
>>>>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500
>>>>> and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>>>>
>>>>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the
>>>>> output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3
>>>>> filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope
>>>>>> today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard
>>>>>> output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was
>>>>>> rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in
>>>>>> time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch). At
>>>>>> the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at a
>>>>>> selected 10 watts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz
>>>>>> and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the
>>>>>> desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified)
>>>>>> that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the
>>>>>> filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around
>>>>>> but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get
>>>>>> this out to the group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Except when the sound card is in the computer instead of the radio, "Line In" is
receiving signal from the program via the sound card 'speaker' output, not the
microphone. Moving the card into the radio doesn't change this. The only thing
changed is it's too darned sensitive.

Regards,

Wes N7WS

On 8/5/2017 9:39 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal
>> sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at
>> less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>
> Actually, you need to adjust the options in the Windows *.inf file
> used for the PCM-series CODEC (or use the codec that identifies as
> line level). Windows is turning on a 20 dB preamp in the CODEC.
>
> I suspect if one sets the Windows Sound Options (Control Panel) to
> display dB rather than percentage, the minimum level will be some-
> thing like 16 to 20 dB! That indicated the fixed 20 dB "mic preamp"
> is engaged.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> Wayne,
>>
>> There are no beat notes. These frequencies, at least from the FT8 program in
>> Tune mode are single frequency. Based upon output RF spectrum measurements*,
>> with for example 1010 Hz input and 4-5 bars of ALC, I see spurious or
>> intermodulation sidebands, down -65 dBc. If I change nothing else but adjust
>> the tone frequency to 1000 Hz the spectrum is the same but the ALC bars are
>> cyclic, going from none to 4-5, at about the 2 HZ rate Brian reported
>> earlier. (Slow ALC in action?) That's the good news.
>>
>> If I set the tone to 1500 Hz, the FT8 mid-band target, I'm presented with the
>> cyclic ALC and some ~193 Hz, -50 dBc sidebands.
>>
>> I have tried this with both the K3S internal sound card and via Line In/Out
>> into my laptop sound card. The results are more-or-less the same. But IMHO,
>> you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal sound card;
>> it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at less than 5%
>> and Line In at 10 or less.
>>
>> I would suggest that you do some measurements with a low-distortion sine wave
>> audio source run into the radio to eliminate the possibility that this junk
>> is a result of all of the digitally generated tones.
>>
>> If this (what I will call a) problem continues to exist then I think a fix is
>> in order. Expecting users to select particular frequencies to use to set
>> gain levels isn't an acceptable workaround.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>
>> * My "spectrum analyzer" is my SDR-IQ which I have used to measure TX IMD on
>> both my K3 and K3S. Your IMD
>> measurements on my K3S concurred with mine within 1 dB or less.
>>
>> On 8/4/2017 4:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is
>>> what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the
>>> standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>>>>
>>>> This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some of
>>>> us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
>>>>
>>>> Wes, N7WS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>> Here's some followup:
>>>>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500,
>>>>> and 2000 Hz.
>>>>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500 and
>>>>> 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>>>>
>>>>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the output
>>>>> and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3 filter
>>>>> center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today.
>>>>>> I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard output
>>>>>> to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock
>>>>>> solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in
>>>>>> time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch).
>>>>>> At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at
>>>>>> a selected 10 watts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and
>>>>>> the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the
>>>>>> desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified)
>>>>>> that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the
>>>>>> filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around
>>>>>> but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this
>>>>>> out to the group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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ng7m

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Wes, I understand that... assuming you are responding to me... I was asking
Joe what .inf file to modify and then reinstall the USB CODEC generic
driver to disable the irritating microphone boost which makes it too
sensitive. I'm taking about the KIO3B USB CODEC here... Max NG7M

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Except when the sound card is in the computer instead of the radio, "Line
> In" is receiving signal from the program via the sound card 'speaker'
> output, not the microphone. Moving the card into the radio doesn't change
> this. The only thing changed is it's too darned sensitive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Wes N7WS
>
>
> On 8/5/2017 9:39 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>>
>> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the
>>> internal sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows
>>> gain at less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>>>
>>
>> Actually, you need to adjust the options in the Windows *.inf file
>> used for the PCM-series CODEC (or use the codec that identifies as
>> line level). Windows is turning on a 20 dB preamp in the CODEC.
>>
>> I suspect if one sets the Windows Sound Options (Control Panel) to
>> display dB rather than percentage, the minimum level will be some-
>> thing like 16 to 20 dB! That indicated the fixed 20 dB "mic preamp"
>> is engaged.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> Wayne,
>>>
>>> There are no beat notes. These frequencies, at least from the FT8
>>> program in Tune mode are single frequency. Based upon output RF spectrum
>>> measurements*, with for example 1010 Hz input and 4-5 bars of ALC, I see
>>> spurious or intermodulation sidebands, down -65 dBc. If I change nothing
>>> else but adjust the tone frequency to 1000 Hz the spectrum is the same but
>>> the ALC bars are cyclic, going from none to 4-5, at about the 2 HZ rate
>>> Brian reported earlier. (Slow ALC in action?) That's the good news.
>>>
>>> If I set the tone to 1500 Hz, the FT8 mid-band target, I'm presented
>>> with the cyclic ALC and some ~193 Hz, -50 dBc sidebands.
>>>
>>> I have tried this with both the K3S internal sound card and via Line
>>> In/Out into my laptop sound card. The results are more-or-less the same.
>>> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the internal
>>> sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows gain at
>>> less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>>>
>>> I would suggest that you do some measurements with a low-distortion sine
>>> wave audio source run into the radio to eliminate the possibility that this
>>> junk is a result of all of the digitally generated tones.
>>>
>>> If this (what I will call a) problem continues to exist then I think a
>>> fix is in order. Expecting users to select particular frequencies to use
>>> to set gain levels isn't an acceptable workaround.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Wes N7WS
>>>
>>>
>>> * My "spectrum analyzer" is my SDR-IQ which I have used to measure TX
>>> IMD on both my K3 and K3S. Your IMD
>>> measurements on my K3S concurred with mine within 1 dB or less.
>>>
>>> On 8/4/2017 4:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is
>>>> what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the
>>>> standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>> N6KR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some
>>>>> of us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
>>>>>
>>>>> Wes, N7WS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's some followup:
>>>>>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000,
>>>>>> 1500, and 2000 Hz.
>>>>>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000,
>>>>>> 1500 and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the
>>>>>> output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3
>>>>>> filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope
>>>>>>> today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard
>>>>>>> output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was
>>>>>>> rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in
>>>>>>> time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch). At
>>>>>>> the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at a
>>>>>>> selected 10 watts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz
>>>>>>> and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the
>>>>>>> desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified)
>>>>>>> that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the
>>>>>>> filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around
>>>>>>> but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get
>>>>>>> this out to the group.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Nope, I was responding to Joe. I top posted right above his commentary per
Elecraft list guidelines.

On 8/5/2017 12:47 PM, M. George wrote:

> Wes, I understand that... assuming you are responding to me... I was asking
> Joe what .inf file to modify and then reinstall the USB CODEC generic
> driver to disable the irritating microphone boost which makes it too
> sensitive. I'm taking about the KIO3B USB CODEC here... Max NG7M
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Except when the sound card is in the computer instead of the radio, "Line
>> In" is receiving signal from the program via the sound card 'speaker'
>> output, not the microphone. Moving the card into the radio doesn't change
>> this. The only thing changed is it's too darned sensitive.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>
>> On 8/5/2017 9:39 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/5/2017 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>>>
>>>> But IMHO, you need to put a 30 dB attenuator on the input of the
>>>> internal sound card; it is way too sensitive. I'm having to run the Windows
>>>> gain at less than 5% and Line In at 10 or less.
>>>>
>>> Actually, you need to adjust the options in the Windows *.inf file
>>> used for the PCM-series CODEC (or use the codec that identifies as
>>> line level). Windows is turning on a 20 dB preamp in the CODEC.
>>>
>>> I suspect if one sets the Windows Sound Options (Control Panel) to
>>> display dB rather than percentage, the minimum level will be some-
>>> thing like 16 to 20 dB! That indicated the fixed 20 dB "mic preamp"
>>> is engaged.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>

Brian Hunt

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Here are some spectrum photos from the tune signals of both FLDIGI and
WSJT-X 1.8. All three are essentially identical showing some low level
sideband noise +/- 30 kHz and down > 60dBc. There's no apparent
difference in the spectra between pumping and non-pumping ALC, as Wes
reported.

http://www.pbase.com/brhunt/spectrum_photos

Enjoy!

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

I said earlier:

"If I set the tone to 1500 Hz, the FT8 mid-band target, I'm presented with the
cyclic ALC and some ~193 Hz, -50 dBc sidebands. "

Ten KHz/div is too coarse to see these. Try again.

Wes N7WS

On 8/5/2017 1:01 PM, Brian Hunt wrote:

> Here are some spectrum photos from the tune signals of both FLDIGI and WSJT-X
> 1.8. All three are essentially identical showing some low level sideband
> noise +/- 30 kHz and down > 60dBc. There's no apparent difference in the
> spectra between pumping and non-pumping ALC, as Wes reported.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/brhunt/spectrum_photos
>
> Enjoy!
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ

Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I was thinking that as the "ALC" meter isn't really showing ALC, but audio level when below I believe 5 bars? - that the ALC isn't being modulated, rather what we may be seeing is an artefact caused by the way the peak level of the audio is detected by sampling the audio at a particular sampling rate.

Because it isn't just a simple hardware analog peak detector that is used, the audio meter reading displayed will beat between the sampling rate of the audio detector and the actual frequency of the tone, even an absolutely pure tone with no harmonics.

I have seen similar odd things happen with another make of radio with their power meter (which again is sampled) and AM modulation on the transmission. Putting a true analog power meter on the output showed no variation in power output, it was all an illusion.

It's just one of those annoying things that happen when we aren't dealing with purely analog methods of detection of frequencies. You see similar aliases when using modern Digital Sampling Oscilloscopes.

As you have pointed out the solution can only involve moving the software's tune frequency to a frequency that does not beat at such a visibly slow rate with the audio detector sampling rate.

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 5 Aug 2017, at 00:45, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is it possible that a beat note between tones (and their harmonics) is what’s modulating the ALC reading? If so, moving the tone slightly off the standard pitch may be an acceptable workaround.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Good find Brian!!! I see it too in FT8.
>>
>> This probably explains the great variability in results reported. Some of us have a problem, others say, Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
>>
>> Wes, N7WS
>>
>>
>>> On 8/4/2017 11:33 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>> Here's some followup:
>>> FLDIGI shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000 Hz.
>>> WSJT-X 1.8 shows the "pumping" affect with carrier tones of 1000, 1500 and 2000 Hz (couldn't select 500 Hz).
>>>
>>> The affect is very narrow with frequency. 10 Hz either way and the output and ALC display and MON output is rock solid. Changing the K3 filter center frequency has no effect on the above.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>
>>>> On 8/4/2017 10:58, Brian Hunt wrote:
>>>> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today. I had the same problem as described. Looking at my USB soundcard output to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock solid. Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch). At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at a selected 10 watts.
>>>>
>>>> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and the "pumping" went away! At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering. Then I remembered (and verified) that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>>>>
>>>> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this out to the group.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Terry Schieler-2

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

In reply to this post by Brian Hunt

I have been watching this thread carefully since it began, and, combined with my experiences over this past weekend, am now more confused than ever. Don, W3FPR recently (again) gave very succinct instructions for getting a good starting audio point for the ALC readings. I had previously not been able to get the "four bars solid, fifth bar flickering" on my K3S for JT65 for weeks now, no matter what I did. Bought all the books and read all the articles (Yes, they reference rigs that work differently than my K3S. Understood. I get it) Yesterday I decided to follow Don's instructions (as bolstered by those from Bob, K4TAX). Thanks to both fine gents.

I set:
K3S Mode to Data A
Band: 20 Meters (14.076)
Windows 7 Audio level OUT from computer to about 50% of scale (USB CODEC)
Line-IN level on the K3S to 30
PWR slider in the WSJT-X software to about mid-range
Set the K3S power out to 30 with rig's PO control

During a TEST transmit (using the TUNE button in the software), I adjusted the WSJT PWR slider (downward) on the software to finally achieve the four bars solid and fifth bar flickering. I then switched to normal TX, the ALC reading held fast (four solid fifth flicker) and I made a couple of QSOs. Life was good. Power was still at 30, COMP 0 as set. Seemed that Don and Bob's comments were spot on. I thought my K3S was good to go for all K3S digital modes, so I touched nothing. Then I changed bands with the K3S band switch to 15 meters. Did a test TX on 15 with the Mode (Data A), Power Out (30) and Comp (0), Software PWR slider settings still untouched. But upon *normal* TX on 15 M the ALC had jumped to 6 solid bars. Nothing I tried would get it back to the desired "4 solid+5th flicker" on 15M.

Then I went back to 20M. But, the ALC there had also changed and was now 6 solid bars. It had changed somehow. Power out still 30, Comp 0, etc. Also, now the WSJT PWR slider had moved back up above its previous mid-scale settings as well. I had carefully touched nothing but the BAND and TX TEST switchs on the K3S.

Aren't the DATA A settings saved per band after doing these adjustments for digital modes? Why would a simple band change alter the rig's ALC setting as well as the PWR slider in the software? Did the new Freq somehow change the Window's Line Out and the software's PWR slider? Should I expect to have to reset the settings every time I use one of the JT and FT digital modes?

I think I'll try bouncing signals off commercial tow boats on the Mississippi River instead. Must be easier. "CQ the Rhonda May.......Calling the Rhonda May, Over". ;o)

73, Terry W0FM

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hunt [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 3:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior

Here are some spectrum photos from the tune signals of both FLDIGI and WSJT-X 1.8. All three are essentially identical showing some low level sideband noise +/- 30 kHz and down > 60dBc. There's no apparent difference in the spectra between pumping and non-pumping ALC, as Wes reported.

http://www.pbase.com/brhunt/spectrum_photos

Enjoy!

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

There is a feature in WSJT-X that saves power setting and tune power per band. So, to correct your concern, select the option and then set the value per band.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 7, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Terry Schieler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have been watching this thread carefully since it began, and, combined with my experiences over this past weekend, am now more confused than ever. Don, W3FPR recently (again) gave very succinct instructions for getting a good starting audio point for the ALC readings. I had previously not been able to get the "four bars solid, fifth bar flickering" on my K3S for JT65 for weeks now, no matter what I did. Bought all the books and read all the articles (Yes, they reference rigs that work differently than my K3S. Understood. I get it) Yesterday I decided to follow Don's instructions (as bolstered by those from Bob, K4TAX). Thanks to both fine gents.
>
> I set:
> K3S Mode to Data A
> Band: 20 Meters (14.076)
> Windows 7 Audio level OUT from computer to about 50% of scale (USB CODEC)
> Line-IN level on the K3S to 30
> PWR slider in the WSJT-X software to about mid-range
> Set the K3S power out to 30 with rig's PO control
>
> During a TEST transmit (using the TUNE button in the software), I adjusted the WSJT PWR slider (downward) on the software to finally achieve the four bars solid and fifth bar flickering. I then switched to normal TX, the ALC reading held fast (four solid fifth flicker) and I made a couple of QSOs. Life was good. Power was still at 30, COMP 0 as set. Seemed that Don and Bob's comments were spot on. I thought my K3S was good to go for all K3S digital modes, so I touched nothing. Then I changed bands with the K3S band switch to 15 meters. Did a test TX on 15 with the Mode (Data A), Power Out (30) and Comp (0), Software PWR slider settings still untouched. But upon *normal* TX on 15 M the ALC had jumped to 6 solid bars. Nothing I tried would get it back to the desired "4 solid+5th flicker" on 15M.
>
> Then I went back to 20M. But, the ALC there had also changed and was now 6 solid bars. It had changed somehow. Power out still 30, Comp 0, etc. Also, now the WSJT PWR slider had moved back up above its previous mid-scale settings as well. I had carefully touched nothing but the BAND and TX TEST switchs on the K3S.
>
> Aren't the DATA A settings saved per band after doing these adjustments for digital modes? Why would a simple band change alter the rig's ALC setting as well as the PWR slider in the software? Did the new Freq somehow change the Window's Line Out and the software's PWR slider? Should I expect to have to reset the settings every time I use one of the JT and FT digital modes?
>
> I think I'll try bouncing signals off commercial tow boats on the Mississippi River instead. Must be easier. "CQ the Rhonda May.......Calling the Rhonda May, Over". ;o)
>
> 73, Terry W0FM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hunt [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 3:02 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>
> Here are some spectrum photos from the tune signals of both FLDIGI and WSJT-X 1.8. All three are essentially identical showing some low level sideband noise +/- 30 kHz and down > 60dBc. There's no apparent difference in the spectra between pumping and non-pumping ALC, as Wes reported.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/brhunt/spectrum_photos
>
> Enjoy!
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

ve3ibw

Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Hi Terry,

I have actually disabled all those settings in WSJT-X. I don't let WSJT-X
put the rig into data mode (from the Radio tab - MODE = NONE). I don't
remember the power settings by band on the Audio tab within the settings
dialogue. I setup my KX3 ahead of time for digital modes (using a macro)
and leave it that way for all data modes (FLdigi, WSJT-X, etc.).

Do you have any of these options selected? Have you tried disabling them,
setup your sound card, etc. as per Don's et al. instructions and then
changed bands back and forth?

regards,
Brian
VE3IBW

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There is a feature in WSJT-X that saves power setting and tune power per
> band. So, to correct your concern, select the option and then set the
> value per band.
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 7, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Terry Schieler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I have been watching this thread carefully since it began, and, combined
> with my experiences over this past weekend, am now more confused than
> ever. Don, W3FPR recently (again) gave very succinct instructions for
> getting a good starting audio point for the ALC readings. I had previously
> not been able to get the "four bars solid, fifth bar flickering" on my K3S
> for JT65 for weeks now, no matter what I did. Bought all the books and
> read all the articles (Yes, they reference rigs that work differently than
> my K3S. Understood. I get it) Yesterday I decided to follow Don's
> instructions (as bolstered by those from Bob, K4TAX). Thanks to both fine
> gents.
> >
> > I set:
> > K3S Mode to Data A
> > Band: 20 Meters (14.076)
> > Windows 7 Audio level OUT from computer to about 50% of scale (USB CODEC)
> > Line-IN level on the K3S to 30
> > PWR slider in the WSJT-X software to about mid-range
> > Set the K3S power out to 30 with rig's PO control
> >
> > During a TEST transmit (using the TUNE button in the software), I
> adjusted the WSJT PWR slider (downward) on the software to finally achieve
> the four bars solid and fifth bar flickering. I then switched to normal
> TX, the ALC reading held fast (four solid fifth flicker) and I made a
> couple of QSOs. Life was good. Power was still at 30, COMP 0 as set.
> Seemed that Don and Bob's comments were spot on. I thought my K3S was good
> to go for all K3S digital modes, so I touched nothing. Then I changed
> bands with the K3S band switch to 15 meters. Did a test TX on 15 with the
> Mode (Data A), Power Out (30) and Comp (0), Software PWR slider settings
> still untouched. But upon *normal* TX on 15 M the ALC had jumped to 6
> solid bars. Nothing I tried would get it back to the desired "4 solid+5th
> flicker" on 15M.
> >
> > Then I went back to 20M. But, the ALC there had also changed and was
> now 6 solid bars. It had changed somehow. Power out still 30, Comp 0,
> etc. Also, now the WSJT PWR slider had moved back up above its previous
> mid-scale settings as well. I had carefully touched nothing but the BAND
> and TX TEST switchs on the K3S.
> >
> > Aren't the DATA A settings saved per band after doing these adjustments
> for digital modes? Why would a simple band change alter the rig's ALC
> setting as well as the PWR slider in the software? Did the new Freq
> somehow change the Window's Line Out and the software's PWR slider? Should
> I expect to have to reset the settings every time I use one of the JT and
> FT digital modes?
> >
> > I think I'll try bouncing signals off commercial tow boats on the
> Mississippi River instead. Must be easier. "CQ the Rhonda
> May.......Calling the Rhonda May, Over". ;o)
> >
> > 73, Terry W0FM
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Hunt [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2017 3:02 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
> >
> > Here are some spectrum photos from the tune signals of both FLDIGI and
> WSJT-X 1.8. All three are essentially identical showing some low level
> sideband noise +/- 30 kHz and down > 60dBc. There's no apparent difference
> in the spectra between pumping and non-pumping ALC, as Wes reported.
> >
> > http://www.pbase.com/brhunt/spectrum_photos
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > 73,
> > Brian, K0DTJ
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Regards,
Brian
VE3IBW

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