K3 - Purchase Recommendations??

[N2TK]

Hi Ed,
It must be my ears. I installed a 2.1 filter before this contest. I have it
set so it engages at 2.35. I tried different settings over the weekend from
2.7 down to 1.8. I only used the HI cut. I finally settled on 2.15. My run
rate suffered when I went narrower. The narrower I made it below 2.15 the
harder time I had pulling out calls.

And with the NR even at 5-1 the fidelity suffered more so had more trouble
pulling out calls as compared to no NR on the low bands. I usually use 1-2
on CW.

Maybe it is the response of my ears or maybe I am missing something????

73,
N2TK/NP2, Tony


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ed Muns
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 5:17 PM
To: 'George A. Thornton'
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Purchase Recommendations??

> The way the filters work, the K3 does not kick in the filter
> until you narrow the bandwidth to that filter's size.  So, if
> you get the 1.8 all bandwidths between 1.9 and 2.7 or 8 will
> run off of the standard 2.7 or
> 2.8 filter, and the 1.8 sits idle.

The K3 engages each roofing filter at the DSP bandwidth YOU choose to put
into the CONFIG menu.  You can have the 1.8 kHz filter engage at 1500 Hz or
2200 Hz or 1800 Hz or whatever you choose.

> What I have observed is the narrower the filter the weirder
> and more unnatural it sounds in SSB.  At 1.8 you have
> filtered out a substantial part of the normal SSB signal.  
> What left can be understood but it is not pleasant or
> comfortable to the ear.  You may find the filter very helpful
> for picking out a weak signal under difficult conditions, but
> you would not want to use that for very long, and not for casual talk.

It is important to understand which part of the audio spectrum to filter out
to retain maximum intelligibility.  As you reduce from 2800 Hz to 1800 Hz
bandwidth on SSB, the removed spectrum should come entirely from the high
side.  This is easily done by reducing HI CUT and leaving LO CUT alone.  Fc
will track automatically and stay in the center between LO CUT and HI CUT.
If you use WIDTH, then you will have to lower Fc via SHIFT by half as much
as you reduced WIDTH in order to retain full intelligibility.  This is far
more tedious than simply reducing HI CUT.
 
> I would suspect the 2.1 filter would be more natural sounding
> and you might find that more pleasant to use.

I've been using exclusively a 1500 Hz SSB bandwidth for over two years now
on the K3.  It sounds wonderful and is fully intelligible ... for
communications, contesting, etc.  No, it is not for high-fidelity music.

Ed - W0YK
-----------------------------------------------
Ed Muns
Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com
FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard

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[Brett Howard]

I think its because the tuning is a bit more fiddly and you have to be
right on them.  Its the difference between running a 100Hz filter and
a 500Hz filter.  As long as you're not being blown out of the water
you're going to hear more people better with the 500Hz filter as the
100Hz filter is going to kill everyone who calls off frequency.  Heck
I just learned with the FT-101E that I just bought and was playing
with that just because you could understand them didn't mean that you
were on freq with them.  My FT-101E was 3Kc apart on TX and RX when I
first got it.  Its was in beautiful shape but it needed a bit of
alignment here and there.

~Brett

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:23 AM, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ed,
> It must be my ears. I installed a 2.1 filter before this contest. I have it
> set so it engages at 2.35. I tried different settings over the weekend from
> 2.7 down to 1.8. I only used the HI cut. I finally settled on 2.15. My run
> rate suffered when I went narrower. The narrower I made it below 2.15 the
> harder time I had pulling out calls.
>
> And with the NR even at 5-1 the fidelity suffered more so had more trouble
> pulling out calls as compared to no NR on the low bands. I usually use 1-2
> on CW.
>
> Maybe it is the response of my ears or maybe I am missing something????
>
> 73,
> N2TK/NP2, Tony
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ed Muns
> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 5:17 PM
> To: 'George A. Thornton'
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Purchase Recommendations??
>
>> The way the filters work, the K3 does not kick in the filter
>> until you narrow the bandwidth to that filter's size.  So, if
>> you get the 1.8 all bandwidths between 1.9 and 2.7 or 8 will
>> run off of the standard 2.7 or
>> 2.8 filter, and the 1.8 sits idle.
>
> The K3 engages each roofing filter at the DSP bandwidth YOU choose to put
> into the CONFIG menu.  You can have the 1.8 kHz filter engage at 1500 Hz or
> 2200 Hz or 1800 Hz or whatever you choose.
>
>> What I have observed is the narrower the filter the weirder
>> and more unnatural it sounds in SSB.  At 1.8 you have
>> filtered out a substantial part of the normal SSB signal.
>> What left can be understood but it is not pleasant or
>> comfortable to the ear.  You may find the filter very helpful
>> for picking out a weak signal under difficult conditions, but
>> you would not want to use that for very long, and not for casual talk.
>
> It is important to understand which part of the audio spectrum to filter out
> to retain maximum intelligibility.  As you reduce from 2800 Hz to 1800 Hz
> bandwidth on SSB, the removed spectrum should come entirely from the high
> side.  This is easily done by reducing HI CUT and leaving LO CUT alone.  Fc
> will track automatically and stay in the center between LO CUT and HI CUT.
> If you use WIDTH, then you will have to lower Fc via SHIFT by half as much
> as you reduced WIDTH in order to retain full intelligibility.  This is far
> more tedious than simply reducing HI CUT.
>
>> I would suspect the 2.1 filter would be more natural sounding
>> and you might find that more pleasant to use.
>
> I've been using exclusively a 1500 Hz SSB bandwidth for over two years now
> on the K3.  It sounds wonderful and is fully intelligible ... for
> communications, contesting, etc.  No, it is not for high-fidelity music.
>
> Ed - W0YK
> -----------------------------------------------
> Ed Muns
> Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com
> FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:23 AM, N2TK, Tony
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Ed,
> > It must be my ears. I installed a 2.1 filter before this contest. I
> > have it set so it engages at 2.35. I tried different
> settings over the
> > weekend from
> > 2.7 down to 1.8. I only used the HI cut. I finally settled
> on 2.15. My
> > run rate suffered when I went narrower. The narrower I made
> it below
> > 2.15 the harder time I had pulling out calls.
> >
> > And with the NR even at 5-1 the fidelity suffered more so had more
> > trouble pulling out calls as compared to no NR on the low bands. I
> > usually use 1-2 on CW.
> >
> > Maybe it is the response of my ears or maybe I am missing
> something????
> >
> > 73,
> > N2TK/NP2, Tony

To Which, Brett Howard replied:

> I think its because the tuning is a bit more fiddly and you
> have to be right on them.  Its the difference between running
> a 100Hz filter and a 500Hz filter.  As long as you're not
> being blown out of the water you're going to hear more people
> better with the 500Hz filter as the 100Hz filter is going to
> kill everyone who calls off frequency.  Heck I just learned
> with the FT-101E that I just bought and was playing with that
> just because you could understand them didn't mean that you
> were on freq with them.  My FT-101E was 3Kc apart on TX and
> RX when I first got it.  Its was in beautiful shape but it
> needed a bit of alignment here and there.
>
> ~Brett
>

Perhaps, but I've never experienced "fiddly tuning".  I've never operated
SSB on my K3s at a RX bandwidth greater than 1500 Hz.  This includes three
24-hour ARRL Phone Sweepstakes.  I use the RIT when needed but seldom touch
it.  The communications clarity is superb at this bandwidth in crowded
contest band conditions.  Tony is describing an entirely different K3
experience than mine.  I don't understand what the difference is.

Ed - W0YK
-----------------------------------------------
Ed Muns
Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com
FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard

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