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K3: Recording from LIN OUT

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Pete Smith N4ZR

K3: Recording from LIN OUT

I have been doing some more experiments with recording from the LIN OUT
jack, and have now managed to get decent results with fixed LIN OUT
levels as low as 50, without running all the sound card mixers quite at
maximum. Sound seems OK, so maybe that part is good.

My original objective in pursuing this whole thing was to make contest
recordings that contained both my CW (or voice) and the other station's
signal. According to the manual, doing so requires that LIN OUT be set
to =PHONES, but I have found that even at a fixed LIN OUT level my
sidetone can be heard in my recordings, although at a very low level.
Is this simply bleedthrough, or has there been a change in the firmware
that is not reflected in the manual?

--
73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000

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Peter-64

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

Pete Smith schreef:

> I have been doing some more experiments with recording from the LIN OUT
> jack, and have now managed to get decent results with fixed LIN OUT
> levels as low as 50, without running all the sound card mixers quite at
> maximum. Sound seems OK, so maybe that part is good.
>
> My original objective in pursuing this whole thing was to make contest
> recordings that contained both my CW (or voice) and the other station's
> signal. According to the manual, doing so requires that LIN OUT be set
> to =PHONES, but I have found that even at a fixed LIN OUT level my
> sidetone can be heard in my recordings, although at a very low level.
> Is this simply bleedthrough, or has there been a change in the firmware
> that is not reflected in the manual?
>
>

AD4C2009

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

Hi Pete,since I purchased my K3 I am doing recordings taking the audio off the line out conector at the rear and setting the menu LIN OUT at "nor 005" with this settings I have perfect clear low level audio to inject to my Dell laptop line input and all my recordings are very good,they are an identical copy of the sender; with this configuration I can record myself as well when I have the monitor engaged and set to 20 on the menu..The playback is done also from the computer line out to the K3 rear line in conector and then setting the quick menu to "FP.L"
For reference I am using the latest 4.03 FW version and a Yamaha CM-500 for mic.
Good luck with yours,73

AD4C

"If you see a driver handling a cell phone on her/his hands while driving,do please stay away from that vehicle,its a moving bomb.Your life is at danger.Keep yourself and your family alive"

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Peter <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Peter <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Recording from LIN OUT
To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:50 PM

Pete Smith schreef:

I have asked Wayne (and he passed this to Lyle) on 28-feb to make the TX
audio (and CW side tone) as fixed audio to the line out.
This regardless to the monitor setting. Just to make a complete
recording of a contest possible.
There are in "the consider" stage

Peter
PC2A
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Peter-64

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

Hector and several others,

Yes its possible to record your own audio. But you have to set MON on
In a Multi/Multi set up every operators has its own prefer settings for
audio level and monitor level.Loud vs weak and inbetween
Thats why it will nice to have a fixed audio tx level output and make
good quality audio records.

Peter
Hector Padron schreef:

> Hi Pete,since I purchased my K3 I am doing recordings taking the audio
> off the line out conector at the rear and setting the menu LIN OUT at
> "nor 005" with this settings I have perfect clear low level audio to
> inject to my Dell laptop line input and all my recordings are very
> good,they are an identical copy of the sender; with this configuration
> I can record myself as well when I have the monitor engaged and set to
> 20 on the menu..The playback is done also from the computer line out
> to the K3 rear line in conector and then setting the quick menu to "FP.L"
> For reference I am using the latest 4.03 FW version and a Yamaha
> CM-500 for mic.
> Good luck with yours,73
>
> AD4C
>
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 7/20/10, Peter /<[hidden email]>/* wrote:
>
>
> I have asked Wayne (and he passed this to Lyle) on 28-feb to make
> the TX
> audio (and CW side tone) as fixed audio to the line out.
> This regardless to the monitor setting. Just to make a complete
> recording of a contest possible.
> There are in "the consider" stage
>
> Peter
> PC2A
> ______________________________________________________________
> E
>

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ab2tc

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

Hi,

I support the request for a fixed level line out for the TX audio very much. I do not find the current options satisfactory.

AB2TC - Knut

Peter-64 wrote

Hector and several others,

Yes its possible to record your own audio. But you have to set MON on
In a Multi/Multi set up every operators has its own prefer settings for
audio level and monitor level.Loud vs weak and inbetween
Thats why it will nice to have a fixed audio tx level output and make
good quality audio records.

Peter
<snip>

Eugene Balinski

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

In the traditional sense, "LINE" was a broadcast and
recording industry standard for FIXED signal at 0dBm, and
600 ohms. It was used to interconnect various pieces
equipment and was supposed to relieve the engineers of the
need to determine what the signal level was and what the
source and destination impedance levels were.

IMHO all manufacturers should return to the tradidional
definaton.

73
Gene K1NR

K2 6XXX

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I support the request for a fixed level line out for the
> TX audio very much.
> I do not find the current options satisfactory.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> Peter-64 wrote:
> >
> > Hector and several others,
> >
> > Yes its possible to record your own audio. But you have
> to set MON on
> > In a Multi/Multi set up every operators has its own
> prefer settings for
> > audio level and monitor level.Loud vs weak and
> inbetween
> > Thats why it will nice to have a fixed audio tx level
> output and make
> > good quality audio records.
> >
> > Peter
> > <snip>
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>

http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Recording-from-LIN-OUT-tp5316495p5320819.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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W8JI

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

> In the traditional sense, "LINE" was a broadcast and
> recording industry standard for FIXED signal at 0dBm, and
> 600 ohms. It was used to interconnect various pieces
> equipment and was supposed to relieve the engineers of the
> need to determine what the signal level was and what the
> source and destination impedance levels were.

....which is 774.6 millivolts into 600 ohms, or roughly 1 volt peak or 2
volts p-p.

> IMHO all manufacturers should return to the tradidional
> definaton.

I like the idea of an adjustment in level, but all line outputs should be
able to deliver clean signal at .775 volts RMS into 600 ohms with a headroom
of several dB. If it can not do .775 volts RMS cleanly into 600 ohms, it is
not line level.

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P.B. Christensen

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

When I see the term "line" used in conjunction with either RCA or 1/8-inch
TRS jacks, I've already decided that they're really referring to the old IHF
consumer standard where 0dB is -10 dBV, referenced to 1V, irrespective of Z.
Plenty consumer equipment still uses the term "line" to reference the IHF
level so, I'm not sure if there's much value in calling it something else
when the K3 is used by most ops to interface the line jacks into
consumer-level equipment (e.g., PC sound card) -- with a minority of users
interfacing into professional audio equipment.

Paul, W9AC

> In the traditional sense, "LINE" was a broadcast and
> recording industry standard for FIXED signal at 0dBm, and
> 600 ohms. It was used to interconnect various pieces
> equipment and was supposed to relieve the engineers of the
> need to determine what the signal level was and what the
> source and destination impedance levels were.

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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

In reply to this post by Pete Smith N4ZR

Please add my voice to the requests for a fixed line level
output for the K3.

Currently I do recordings and manage audio feeds to external
devices thusly:

K3 monitor on, 2 speakers selected, speakers off (PF-1
Default)
K3 line out to a Alesis Nano Comp in. the Nano Comp is set
as a hard limiter to clip at +2 VU for when I turn the AGC
off (it was just sitting there on my bench, so I *HAD* to
use it somewhere!).
Alesis Nano Comp out to a Behringer MiniAmp 800 headphone
mixer Line A in (Line B is my TS570D line out, sort of a
half assed SO2R setup here)
Mixer line out 1 to Yamaha CM500 headset
Mixer line out 2 to soundcard in (on logger computer -
decoder for RTTY/PSK Etc)
Mixer line out 3 to soundcard in (on secondardy computer
running RecAll to record any audio sent thru the rig)
Mixer line out 4 to a Whirlwind audio amp
Amp to JBL Control 1's, left and right, for when I want to
hear things without the headsets on my head, which is
rarely, but then guests like to hear audio... Im probably
going to get rid of the speaker chain and get something
simpler.

I can select what radio goes to the headsets with the A/B
buttons on the mixer. I can also roughly "pan" the audio
using the AMP800's pan pots to center the audio in my
headset (I have some hearing loss in my right ear). When
using the second receiver, I can also adjust levels/strength
of each receiver using the AMP800 pan pots and not the radio
controls.

It works for me, your milage may vary.

I can simultaneously record, run speakers and/or headphones,
record what I send in all modes and adjust levels
seprarately.

Unfortunately, when I have to adjust audio level with the
radio's volume pot(s), all the other levels downstream also
change (line out is controlled by the volume pot)

It certainly would be nice to have a FIXED level out of that
line out jack and be able to adjust levels on the headset
mixer to the individual outputs without having the rig
volume pot interfere.

-lu-W4LT-
#3192

Message: 30
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: ab2tc <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Recording from LIN OUT
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi,

I support the request for a fixed level line out for the TX
audio very much.
I do not find the current options satisfactory.

AB2TC - Knut

Peter-64 wrote:
>
> Hector and several others,
>
> Yes its possible to record your own audio. But you have to
set MON on
> In a Multi/Multi set up every operators has its own prefer
settings for
> audio level and monitor level.Loud vs weak and inbetween
> Thats why it will nice to have a fixed audio tx level
output and make
> good quality audio records.
>
> Peter
> <snip>
>

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

Lu,

> It certainly would be nice to have a FIXED level out of that
> line out jack and be able to adjust levels on the headset
> mixer to the individual outputs without having the rig
> volume pot interfere.

The K3 has a fixed level (pre-fader level for audio pros)
output. Use the "Line Out" set to "nor" and set the level
as appropriate for your external hardware. I have not
checked recently with a calibrated audio voltmeter, but I
do recall easily seeing .775V RMS with a 50 uV signal and
AGC off - I even had to reduce the RF gain to keep from
distorting (exceeding 1V+ RMS - note the DAC output can
go to about 4.2V P-P and with transformer loss the actual
output should easily reach 2V P-P or .775mV RMS).

The only question is adding monitor and sidetone audio
to that "Line Out" audio ... and I don't see a digital
mixer capable of providing that capability unless it can
be coded into the overall DSP.

The real question though is, if you are going to all the
trouble to use a leveller, mixer, headset amplifier and
speaker chain, why would you even attempt to adjust the
audio on the transceiver? Doing so is like giving an
intern, production assistant, or news videographer a
"greenie" and leaving them alone with the equipment <G>.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 7/21/2010 1:57 PM, Lu Romero wrote:

> Please add my voice to the requests for a fixed line level
> output for the K3.
>
> Currently I do recordings and manage audio feeds to external
> devices thusly:
>
> K3 monitor on, 2 speakers selected, speakers off (PF-1
> Default)
> K3 line out to a Alesis Nano Comp in. the Nano Comp is set
> as a hard limiter to clip at +2 VU for when I turn the AGC
> off (it was just sitting there on my bench, so I *HAD* to
> use it somewhere!).
> Alesis Nano Comp out to a Behringer MiniAmp 800 headphone
> mixer Line A in (Line B is my TS570D line out, sort of a
> half assed SO2R setup here)
> Mixer line out 1 to Yamaha CM500 headset
> Mixer line out 2 to soundcard in (on logger computer -
> decoder for RTTY/PSK Etc)
> Mixer line out 3 to soundcard in (on secondardy computer
> running RecAll to record any audio sent thru the rig)
> Mixer line out 4 to a Whirlwind audio amp
> Amp to JBL Control 1's, left and right, for when I want to
> hear things without the headsets on my head, which is
> rarely, but then guests like to hear audio... Im probably
> going to get rid of the speaker chain and get something
> simpler.
>
> I can select what radio goes to the headsets with the A/B
> buttons on the mixer. I can also roughly "pan" the audio
> using the AMP800's pan pots to center the audio in my
> headset (I have some hearing loss in my right ear). When
> using the second receiver, I can also adjust levels/strength
> of each receiver using the AMP800 pan pots and not the radio
> controls.
>
> It works for me, your milage may vary.
>
> I can simultaneously record, run speakers and/or headphones,
> record what I send in all modes and adjust levels
> seprarately.
>
> Unfortunately, when I have to adjust audio level with the
> radio's volume pot(s), all the other levels downstream also
> change (line out is controlled by the volume pot)
>
> It certainly would be nice to have a FIXED level out of that
> line out jack and be able to adjust levels on the headset
> mixer to the individual outputs without having the rig
> volume pot interfere.
>
> -lu-W4LT-
> #3192
>
>
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: ab2tc<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Recording from LIN OUT
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I support the request for a fixed level line out for the TX
> audio very much.
> I do not find the current options satisfactory.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> Peter-64 wrote:
>>
>> Hector and several others,
>>
>> Yes its possible to record your own audio. But you have to
> set MON on
>> In a Multi/Multi set up every operators has its own prefer
> settings for
>> audio level and monitor level.Loud vs weak and inbetween
>> Thats why it will nice to have a fixed audio tx level
> output and make
>> good quality audio records.
>>
>> Peter
>> <snip>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

n7ws

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

Unless I'm mistaken, always a possibility, the Line Out doesn't have the benefit of the new LP filter, if you have that option. So you still get the full IMD and digital artifacts.

--- On Wed, 7/21/10, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Lu,

> It certainly would be nice to have a FIXED level out of that
> line out jack and be able to adjust levels on the headset
> mixer to the individual outputs without having the rig
> volume pot interfere.

The K3 has a fixed level (pre-fader level for audio pros)
output. Use the "Line Out" set to "nor" and set the level
as appropriate for your external hardware. I have not
checked recently with a calibrated audio voltmeter, but I
do recall easily seeing .775V RMS with a 50 uV signal and
AGC off - I even had to reduce the RF gain to keep from
distorting (exceeding 1V+ RMS - note the DAC output can
go to about 4.2V P-P and with transformer loss the actual
output should easily reach 2V P-P or .775mV RMS).

The only question is adding monitor and sidetone audio
to that "Line Out" audio ... and I don't see a digital
mixer capable of providing that capability unless it can
be coded into the overall DSP.

The real question though is, if you are going to all the
trouble to use a leveller, mixer, headset amplifier and
speaker chain, why would you even attempt to adjust the
audio on the transceiver? Doing so is like giving an
intern, production assistant, or news videographer a
"greenie" and leaving them alone with the equipment <G>.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: Recording from LIN OUT

> Unless I'm mistaken, always a possibility, the Line Out doesn't
> have the benefit of the new LP filter, if you have that option.
> So you still get the full IMD and digital artifacts.

Correct, Line Out does not include the LPF (which only applies to
the digital clock leakage - it does not impact IMD generation).
However, if one is going to the trouble to build an external audio
chain, LFP and EQ would normally be part of that chain.

Secondly, I'm not certain how Lyle implements the CONFIG: LIN OUT =
PHONES option anyway ... it may not have the benefit of LPF either
if the selection is made in the DSP code.

Finally, if one is going to use the speaker/headphone output to
drive an audio chain, the AF/SUB controls should be left alone
and the audio level/balance controlled with the audio chain
(proper engineering practice).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 7/21/2010 3:53 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

> Unless I'm mistaken, always a possibility, the Line Out doesn't have the benefit of the new LP filter, if you have that option. So you still get the full IMD and digital artifacts.
>
> --- On Wed, 7/21/10, Joe Subich, W4TV<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Lu,
>
> > It certainly would be nice to have a FIXED level out of that
> > line out jack and be able to adjust levels on the headset
> > mixer to the individual outputs without having the rig
> > volume pot interfere.
>
> The K3 has a fixed level (pre-fader level for audio pros)
> output. Use the "Line Out" set to "nor" and set the level
> as appropriate for your external hardware. I have not
> checked recently with a calibrated audio voltmeter, but I
> do recall easily seeing .775V RMS with a 50 uV signal and
> AGC off - I even had to reduce the RF gain to keep from
> distorting (exceeding 1V+ RMS - note the DAC output can
> go to about 4.2V P-P and with transformer loss the actual
> output should easily reach 2V P-P or .775mV RMS).
>
> The only question is adding monitor and sidetone audio
> to that "Line Out" audio ... and I don't see a digital
> mixer capable of providing that capability unless it can
> be coded into the overall DSP.
>
> The real question though is, if you are going to all the
> trouble to use a leveller, mixer, headset amplifier and
> speaker chain, why would you even attempt to adjust the
> audio on the transceiver? Doing so is like giving an
> intern, production assistant, or news videographer a
> "greenie" and leaving them alone with the equipment<G>.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>