K3 Repair

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Hi Ed,

Sorry for the delay replying to this thread. I've been out of town for
ten days and am just now catching up with older emails.

I just checked and we're running at 3-4 weeks right now for repairs and
upgrades. My target is 2 weeks or better. I was in the factory yesterday
and personally looked at the queue. The majority of the K3s awaiting
work are for customer requested factory upgrades on older units, factory
additions of new options, followed by a fair number with significant
lightning damage (we see that this time each year) and a remaining mix
of normal repair issues. We had the queue down to a shorter time
recently, but the recent rush of radios coming in before field day (for
upgrades, factory alignments and deferred repairs)  pushed us back a
bit. We are also down one repair technician (part time) after they
returned to the job they had been laid off from in Silicon Valley. What
caught us off guard has been the number of people asking us to upgrade
older used K3s to the current revision levels and adding options along
with the larger number of K3s damaged from lightening strikes and other
physical damage. We also had a number of K3s recently returned for
repair after customers mistakenly transmitted into them while preparing
and testing their SO2R set ups for the WRTC competition in Moscow next
week and weekend. (The largest numbers by far of any rig used by U.S.
and other country WRTC teams are K3s.)

Our tech crew has been working overtime to get things back below two
weeks. Rene was in yesterday working hard when I checked in to pick up
some items at the office, and Dale has been working extra hours in the
evening and weekends. I'm also assigning some of our regular production
crew to perform returned K3 dis-assembly, re-assembly etc so the repair
techs can focus on what they do best. If all goes well, we should be at
the two week or better target in the next 1-2 weeks.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ

_..._


On 7/2/2010 1:06 PM, Ed Lambert wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> Please don't misunderstand my original question. (And thanks to all who have
> contributed to an interesting discussion.)
>
> I had been inactive for quite some time when I purchased a K2. That purchase
> not only returned me to the hobby, but it also made me, probably, a lifetime
> Elecraft devotee. I will be purchasing either a "tricked out" K2 or a K3.
> The Asian manufacturers are not in consideration.
>
> Please note that it is not my intention to be critical of Elecraft or the
> K3. I understand the technology changes that have mandated a slight change
> to the Elecraft business model where we are dealing, more or less, with a
> line replaceable unit (LRU) concept radio as contrasted with a component
> level repair model like the K1, K2, and KX1.
>
> I am only trying to get an idea of the scope of the "problem", if there is
> one. The repair times for the K3 seem to indicate a long queue and I
> naturally wonder what is in that queue. If it is filled with K3's, I wonder
> why.
>
> My life has changed from employment to retirement; every dollar is very
> important to me in this new fixed income world in which I now live. If there
> is some kind of quality control issue developing with the K3, I would like
> to get a handle on it so that I can make an informed decision about a (2nd)
> K2 purchase versus a more expensive K3 purchase.
>
> I would not expect a zero defect business model to be in place at Elecraft.
> Having said that, however, I would like to obtain and understand the
> "out-of-the-box" and the "infant mortality" failure rate data for the K3, if
> such information exists.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed, KD3Y, PE (electrical)
>
>
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[k5oai]

read the following 2 emails,
the first is from a elecraft owner
the 2nd a reply form on of the 2 elecraft owners

once again I will ask,
when is the last time you heard of any such interaction
with one of the big three?
I'm certain you will get no such about anything the sell

===
Hi Guys,

Please don't misunderstand my original question. (And thanks to all who have
contributed to an interesting discussion.)

I had been inactive for quite some time when I purchased a K2. That purchase
not only returned me to the hobby, but it also made me, probably, a lifetime
Elecraft devotee. I will be purchasing either a "tricked out" K2 or a K3.
The Asian manufacturers are not in consideration.

Please note that it is not my intention to be critical of Elecraft or the
K3. I understand the technology changes that have mandated a slight change
to the Elecraft business model where we are dealing, more or less, with a
line replaceable unit (LRU) concept radio as contrasted with a component
level repair model like the K1, K2, and KX1.

I am only trying to get an idea of the scope of the "problem", if there is
one. The repair times for the K3 seem to indicate a long queue and I
naturally wonder what is in that queue. If it is filled with K3's, I wonder
why.
My life has changed from employment to retirement; every dollar is very
important to me in this new fixed income world in which I now live. If there
is some kind of quality control issue developing with the K3, I would like
to get a handle on it so that I can make an informed decision about a (2nd)
K2 purchase versus a more expensive K3 purchase.

I would not expect a zero defect business model to be in place at Elecraft.
Having said that, however, I would like to obtain and understand the
"out-of-the-box" and the "infant mortality" failure rate data for the K3, if
such information exists.

Thanks,
Ed, KD3Y, PE (electrical)


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Reply from Eric 1/2 owner below:

Hi Ed,

Sorry for the delay replying to this thread. I've been out of town for
ten days and am just now catching up with older emails.

I just checked and we're running at 3-4 weeks right now for repairs and
upgrades. My target is 2 weeks or better. I was in the factory yesterday
and personally looked at the queue. The majority of the K3s awaiting
work are for customer requested factory upgrades on older units, factory
additions of new options, followed by a fair number with significant
lightning damage (we see that this time each year) and a remaining mix
of normal repair issues. We had the queue down to a shorter time
recently, but the recent rush of radios coming in before field day (for
upgrades, factory alignments and deferred repairs)  pushed us back a
bit. We are also down one repair technician (part time) after they
returned to the job they had been laid off from in Silicon Valley. What
caught us off guard has been the number of people asking us to upgrade
older used K3s to the current revision levels and adding options along
with the larger number of K3s damaged from lightening strikes and other
physical damage. We also had a number of K3s recently returned for
repair after customers mistakenly transmitted into them while preparing
and testing their SO2R set ups for the WRTC competition in Moscow next
week and weekend. (The largest numbers by far of any rig used by U.S.
and other country WRTC teams are K3s.)

Our tech crew has been working overtime to get things back below two
weeks. Rene was in yesterday working hard when I checked in to pick up
some items at the office, and Dale has been working extra hours in the
evening and weekends. I'm also assigning some of our regular production
crew to perform returned K3 dis-assembly, re-assembly etc so the repair
techs can focus on what they do best. If all goes well, we should be at
the two week or better target in the next 1-2 weeks.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ

================

--
GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan
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[k5oai]

snip
sorry I hit the send button to soon
that 'edit as new' feature bit me again


again my apologizes to the list
--
GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan
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[Grant Youngman]

What I find remarkable is that Elecraft is even willing to look at a radio that has suffered lightening damage.

Back in the mid-90's I took an indirect lightening hit that left a bit of molten metal around the shack.   Two other radio top 3 manufacturers were totally unwilling to even attempt repairs.  The policy was -- "Lightening induced damage, we won't touch it".  Nonetheless, I had to send the radios to the manufacturers, and pay for 2-way shipping plus a "service" fee,  just to get a letter to give my insurance company stating the equipment was "unrepairable".  It might have been, or not, but the service departments wouldn't even check.

Grant/NQ5T


On Jul 4, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft wrote:

>
> with the larger number of K3s damaged from lightening strikes and other
> physical damage.
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[Guy, K2AV]

That's not as much a dig as it might sound.  A common occurrence after
lightning damage is for components to weaken and then fail later on,
on their own inconvenient schedule.

A question for the K3 repair guru's...is a lightning damaged board
replaced and tossed, or repair of the lightning damage attempted?  Is
the warranty for such repair the same, or is there a caveat for
lightning damage?

73, Guy.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What I find remarkable is that Elecraft is even willing to look at a radio that has suffered lightening damage.
>
> Back in the mid-90's I took an indirect lightening hit that left a bit of molten metal around the shack.   Two other radio top 3 manufacturers were totally unwilling to even attempt repairs.  The policy was -- "Lightening induced damage, we won't touch it".  Nonetheless, I had to send the radios to the manufacturers, and pay for 2-way shipping plus a "service" fee,  just to get a letter to give my insurance company stating the equipment was "unrepairable".  It might have been, or not, but the service departments wouldn't even check.
>
> Grant/NQ5T
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft wrote:
>
>>
>> with the larger number of K3s damaged from lightening strikes and other
>> physical damage.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

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[Grant Youngman]

Actually, wasn't a dig.  I understand why there would be reluctance to touch a lightening damaged radio, given the issue you (and the vendors at the time) raised.

Which is why I'm kind of surprised Elecraft would do it, unless there were a caveat in the fine print :-)

Grant/NQ5T


On Jul 4, 2010, at 2:59 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> That's not as much a dig as it might sound.  A common occurrence after
> lightning damage is for components to weaken and then fail later on,
> on their own inconvenient schedule.
> On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> What I find remarkable is that Elecraft is even willing to look at a radio that has suffered lightening damage.
>>

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[N1IX-2]

I started this thread last week. I was just venting. I really didn't expect
as much discussion.
It is nice to know that the principals at Elecraft actually read this
discussion group and pay attention if they think it is necessary.
I know that the K3 is unequivocally the best performing radio available for
any price. I think that they want their service to be the same.
At least my K3 is on the shelf in Aptos and I don't have to worry about
lightning damage:)

Dave N1IX

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Guy,

I have repaired several lightning damaged K2/100s.
To protect against a re-repair within my 90 day warranty period, I
arbitrarily replace all the active devices in the KPA100 and then do any
required repairs to the base K2, usually replacing at least the firmware
chip - usually little else is required (that depends on whether the
surge came on the antenna or the power cord or both)
I have done 4 so far with no ill effects nor complaints from my
customers afterwards.

One caveat that I must adhere to is that if there is visible damage to
the board, that is an indication that possibly capacitors, inductors,
resistors and relay points have been damaged too, and I would advise the
customer that it is not repairable at a cost less than that of a new unit.

I don't know if Elecraft has a policy on this sort of thing or not, and
I certainly don't know about the K3 question.

73,
Don W3FPR

Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> That's not as much a dig as it might sound.  A common occurrence after
> lightning damage is for components to weaken and then fail later on,
> on their own inconvenient schedule.
>
> A question for the K3 repair guru's...is a lightning damaged board
> replaced and tossed, or repair of the lightning damage attempted?  Is
> the warranty for such repair the same, or is there a caveat for
> lightning damage?
>
> 73, Guy.
>  
>

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[N7US]

My K3 was one of the lightning casualties they (René) just fixed.  If it
wasn't cost effective to replace components on a board, he replaced the
board.  Neither René nor Madelyn said it couldn't be completely repaired. I
think the modularity is what makes it possible to ensure that a lightning
repair produces a radio that is completely up to spec (and updated too).

René explained his findings and course of action to me, and I was and am
very satisfied.  Insurance would have paid for a replacement if Elecraft
would have said one was necessary, but I am comfortable that the repair was
complete and left the radio as good as new.  He charged me for four hours of
labor and the components and boards replaced.  The radio was new last
November or so, so it is in the warranty period, but I assumed the warranty
wouldn't cover lightning.

Jim N7US


-----Original Message-----


That's not as much a dig as it might sound.  A common occurrence after
lightning damage is for components to weaken and then fail later on,
on their own inconvenient schedule.

A question for the K3 repair guru's...is a lightning damaged board
replaced and tossed, or repair of the lightning damage attempted?  Is
the warranty for such repair the same, or is there a caveat for
lightning damage?

73, Guy.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What I find remarkable is that Elecraft is even willing to look at a radio
that has suffered lightening damage.
>
> Back in the mid-90's I took an indirect lightening hit that left a bit of
molten metal around the shack.   Two other radio top 3 manufacturers were
totally unwilling to even attempt repairs.  The policy was -- "Lightening
induced damage, we won't touch it".  Nonetheless, I had to send the radios
to the manufacturers, and pay for 2-way shipping plus a "service" fee,  just
to get a letter to give my insurance company stating the equipment was
"unrepairable".  It might have been, or not, but the service departments
wouldn't even check.
>
> Grant/NQ5T


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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Jim,

I too would place lightning damage into the "Acts of Nature" category
and not a warranty consideration.  A warranty covers premature component
failures and failure to perform to specification, which is different IMHO.
For a comparison example, a new automobile has a warranty period, but if
a tree falls on it and it is damaged, would that be a warranty repair? -
I think not - that is why we have insurance coverage for those kind of
catastrophic events.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jim McDonald wrote:
> The radio was new last
> November or so, so it is in the warranty period, but I assumed the warranty
> wouldn't cover lightning.
>  
>
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[Philippe Trottet]

Fully agree with your comments Don,
 
And I want to take the opportunity to encourage every Ham to pay more attention to protect our lovely K's and all ellectronic devices in the house.  I've seen so many locations who are facing huge lightings storms and this does not happen only to others, I'm a survival !
I do not want to start a thread beacause it is not directly related but I will be happy to share my experience with those who are interesed.
 
To have some ideas what it is done today on lightning protection, please have a look at: http://www.indelec.com/foudre/Comprendre_la_foudre/Comprendre_la_foudre.aspx 
I have no interest at all in this company but I have always pay very much attention to be well protected in the various locations I was playing Ham specially after an lightning hit when in France (F5LTB)
When in 2003,  I arrived in Democratic Republic of Congo (9Q1TB), where lightning protection is mandatory I was looking to the companies who can provide such service and discover that one has a different and a technically interesting approach. I have equipped my house and during the 5 years I stayed in Kinshasa and never face any problem even the head of the lightning device up to my antenna system on  my metallic roof has been hitted many times by direct lightings, my younger son can testify, the noise amplified by the metallic roof was really impressive, but none of the electric/electronic devices has been destroyed.
The skyscraper where I'm living in UAE is already lightning protection equipped and apart of the strong lightnings during the "colder" season it is very useful  because we are facing time to time sand storms who induce an important amount of static.
Have a good day
Bst 73's
Philippe A65BI
K3#3616
 

>>> Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> 05-07-2010 5:15 >>>
Jim,

I too would place lightning damage into the "Acts of Nature" category
and not a warranty consideration.  A warranty covers premature component
failures and failure to perform to specification, which is different IMHO.
For a comparison example, a new automobile has a warranty period, but if
a tree falls on it and it is damaged, would that be a warranty repair? -
I think not - that is why we have insurance coverage for those kind of
catastrophic events.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jim McDonald wrote:
> The radio was new last
> November or so, so it is in the warranty period, but I assumed the warranty
> wouldn't cover lightning.
>  
>
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 19:34:18 -0500, Jim McDonald wrote:

>My K3 was one of the lightning casualties they (Ren‚) just fixed.

Add me to that list. It took two trips and a lot of Rene's bench time, but
the radio is working fine six months later.  

73, Jim K9YC



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[Bob Stevens-2]

I once took a direct hit on a wire antenna that was disconnected
(thankfully) from the Collins S line. I t was the loudest bang-sounded like
a big gun was fired in the back room (shack). When I went back, there was a
black smudge on the wall by the coax and the smell of an electrical short.
No damage to anything. I now have a lighting protection device in line with
the rig, but I still disconnect when I know a thunderstorm is around.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Philippe Trottet
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:52 PM
To: Don Wilhelm; Jim McDonald
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Repair

Fully agree with your comments Don,
 
And I want to take the opportunity to encourage every Ham to pay more
attention to protect our lovely K's and all ellectronic devices in the
house.  I've seen so many locations who are facing huge lightings storms and
this does not happen only to others, I'm a survival !
I do not want to start a thread beacause it is not directly related but I
will be happy to share my experience with those who are interesed.
 
To have some ideas what it is done today on lightning protection, please
have a look at:
http://www.indelec.com/foudre/Comprendre_la_foudre/Comprendre_la_foudre.aspx

I have no interest at all in this company but I have always pay very much
attention to be well protected in the various locations I was playing Ham
specially after an lightning hit when in France (F5LTB)
When in 2003,  I arrived in Democratic Republic of Congo (9Q1TB), where
lightning protection is mandatory I was looking to the companies who can
provide such service and discover that one has a different and a technically
interesting approach. I have equipped my house and during the 5 years I
stayed in Kinshasa and never face any problem even the head of the lightning
device up to my antenna system on  my metallic roof has been hitted many
times by direct lightings, my younger son can testify, the noise amplified
by the metallic roof was really impressive, but none of the
electric/electronic devices has been destroyed.
The skyscraper where I'm living in UAE is already lightning protection
equipped and apart of the strong lightnings during the "colder" season it is
very useful  because we are facing time to time sand storms who induce an
important amount of static.
Have a good day
Bst 73's
Philippe A65BI
K3#3616
 

>>> Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> 05-07-2010 5:15 >>>
Jim,

I too would place lightning damage into the "Acts of Nature" category
and not a warranty consideration.  A warranty covers premature component
failures and failure to perform to specification, which is different IMHO.
For a comparison example, a new automobile has a warranty period, but if
a tree falls on it and it is damaged, would that be a warranty repair? -
I think not - that is why we have insurance coverage for those kind of
catastrophic events.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jim McDonald wrote:
> The radio was new last
> November or so, so it is in the warranty period, but I assumed the
warranty
> wouldn't cover lightning.
>  
>
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