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K3 Repair

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 Repair

Jack,

I see Wayne has responded and I am certain he will help get to the
bottom of the problem.

I do have one question about your SSB behavior - do you see the same
drop-off in power if you set the wattmeter to read peak?
The power rating of the K3 is expressed in Peak Envelope Power, so your
metering should match when trying to compare apples to apples.

On your PSK31 situation, are you driving the audio to the K3 high enough
to produce 4 to 5 bars on the "ALC" meter, and setting your desired
power output with the K3 power knob?
If you are trying to use the audio level to control the power output, it
will behave much as you have described. The K3 measures the power
output, and decides there is not enough to match the setting of your
power knob, so it increases the drive attempting to produce more power.
Drive the audio input so you have at least 4 ALC bars with maybe the 5th
flickering.
The "ALC" meter on the K3 is not completely an indication of ALC - the
first 4 bars act more like a VU meter to tell you the audio level. The
5th bar indicates the start of ALC action.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jack Brabham wrote:

> Well, here's a follow up.
>
> A week after the assumed return posting date, I emailed, asking for a
> status update and got a phone call from Elecraft the next day.
> Nothing had happened during that week, apparently the return shipping
> just fell thru a crack and didn't occur (and yes, they are swamped with
> work).
>
> So we got that moving and I received the radio on the 15th.
>
> Still exhibits the same problem it had when I sent it in.
>
> So I'm now 3 and a half months into my K3 ownership and still can't get
> on SSB. Considering that I bought the radio specifically for SSB
> contesting and sold all my other radios to pay for the K3, this is not
> making me a happy camper.
>
> I haven't the slightest doubt that what I was told by Elecraft was 100%
> accurate, that the low output problem was confirmed on the bench and
> that an EEINIT had "fixed" it, and it stayed "fixed" while at Elecraft.
> However, as someone who spent 30 years or so troubleshooting complex
> systems, the fact that several previous EEINITs had failed to fix the
> problem would have been a big red flag that I had not yet got to the
> root cause of the issue.
>
> So I emailed Rene and let him know the problem was back. I expect I'll
> hear from him early next week and we will figure out the next step.
>
> BTW here's a quick summary of the "problem" in hopes someone on the list
> may have an idea to try.
>
> (1) Low average output on SSB, typically 10 to 15 watts (AVG) according
> to my W2 and confirmed in that it only drives my SB-200 to about 150
> watts when driven by voice. This occurs with what I take to be normal
> metering indications from the K3, 5 to 7 bars of ALC, a few bars of
> compression and the PO meter "hanging" around 50 watts with peaks up
> around 100W.
>
> (2) Weird power fluctations in PSK31. With higher audio frequencies,
> when PSK1 idle tones are transmitted, the power out will start at about
> 50 to 60 watts and rise to a nominal 75 watts or so over 15 to 20
> seconds. If I preform this test repeatedly with a few seconds "off"
> time between tests, the "starting" PO number gets progressively higher
> each time. After 6 to 8 test cycles the power will only vary a few watts.
>
> However if I power cycle the K3, changing nothing else, the PO reverts
> to starting at 50 watts or so drifting up to normal over several
> seconds, repeating the whole sequence.
>
> At lower audio frequencies, below around 800 hz, the overall PO tapers
> off, and is down 50% at 300 hz. TX EQ is flat, and all config
> parameters are still as received from Elecraft repair except RS-232
> baud rate and the mic selection.
>
> To me, at this point, the two most likely possibilities are something
> mechanically/physically intermittent in the K3 (although it has never
> worked normally for me), or something in the local station environment.
>
> I have tried 3 mics, a Heil PR22 and both elements of a Heil Pro-set,
> FP, RP, and Line-IN, thru a pro-audio chain or direct connected with no
> change. Recordings on the internal DVR sound fine on Monitor but
> exhibit the same problem. The power supply is solid at 13.8V. High
> quality station ground system. Everything else works fine, superb
> reception, normal CW operation, PSK works if I keep the audio carrier
> above 1000 hz.
>
> The DSP board was swapped out before sending the radio in.
>
> I would be just totally tickled to discover the problem is something
> stupid I'm doing or not doing, or a function of some other problem in my
> station setup, but I don't know what the heck it would be.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> 73 Jack KZ5A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/2/2010 10:50 AM, Jack Brabham wrote:
>
>> I agree that a posted repair queue length figure would probably
>> eliminate a lot of angst by setting reasonable expectations. Probably
>> eliminate a lot of phone calls to Elecraft as well. A weekly
>> prognostication would be more than adequate for my purposes.
>>
>> Another thing that could use a little work is the level of communication.
>>
>> Last Friday I got a call from Elecraft stating that the symptoms (low
>> SSB PO) had been confirmed, and that an EEINIT had resolved the problem.
>> My K3 was going to "soak" over the weekend and shipout Monday (last)
>> if was still good. I was glad to hear it was coming back but a bit
>> curious as to why the first half a dozen or so times we did an EEINIT
>> had not resolved the problem.
>>
>> Now its a week later, I don't know if my K3 is back in the shop (as I
>> suspect) or if it is has been shipped and I need to hang around to
>> receive it... I'm sure I could call and get an update but, being lazy,
>> I would rather just get a short simple email periodically while the
>> RSA is open or anytime there is a status update.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Jack KZ5A
>>
>> K3 #4165
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

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hf4me

Re: K3 Repair - ALC Setting

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>

snip
> The "ALC" meter on the K3 is not completely an indication of ALC - the
> first 4 bars act more like a VU meter to tell you the audio level. The
> 5th bar indicates the start of ALC action.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

I may be reading something into part of what you say, straighten me out.

Is the ALC setting at 4-5 bars the "norm" for any mode other than "PSK"?
Should it be 4-5 for SSB and other modes as well???

Thanks es 73, de Jim KG0KP

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 Repair - ALC Setting

Jim,

That is the norm only for DATA modes where you would not want to
activate the ALC.
For SSB and other speech modes, drive the ALC meter to 5 - 7 bars with
the Compression set to zero and a normal voice. See the manual page
28. Best results are when you are kicking up to 7 bars on voice peaks.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:

Jack Brabham KZ5A

Re: K3 Repair

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don,

What I'm watching to see the "creep" is the W2 meter's Windows app with
the meters set to AVG and the peak hold bar ON. I'm interpreting this
as the "peak" of the fluctuating "average" power level???? This is the
number that rolls up around 50% during the first 20 seconds of an
initial transmission after a power cycle.

If I change the meters to "peak", the numbers change as you would
expect, the initial "peak" power starts off around 70 watts and drifts
up to around 95.

BTW normal PSK31 etc operation in DATA A seems to proceed as expected as
long as I stay above 1000 hz or so for the audio. Below that there is
an increasingly noticeable reduction in PO, but otherwise functions
normally.

I'm using my PSK31 program as an audio generator for these tests, not
having anything better to use. In this role it is not adjusted the
same way one would for actual PSK operation. Do not try this at
home...... ;)

I have tried, in the last hour or so, increasing the audio drive levels
and decreasing the mic and line-in gain. This somewhat reduced the
power creep issue, at least in terms of the number of transmission
cycles before it "settles", but the radio still seems to have to
"relearn" this from scratch after a power cycle.

Reducing the Mic gain from 18 to 6 and increasing the output from my mic
pre-amp to get 4-5 bars of ALC, did not seem to help the low output on
SSB problem.

Thanks for the tip about the ALC meter, makes more sense now.

73 Jack KZ5A

On 7/17/2010 1:18 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Jack,
>
> I see Wayne has responded and I am certain he will help get to the
> bottom of the problem.
>
> I do have one question about your SSB behavior - do you see the same
> drop-off in power if you set the wattmeter to read peak?
> The power rating of the K3 is expressed in Peak Envelope Power, so
> your metering should match when trying to compare apples to apples.
>
> On your PSK31 situation, are you driving the audio to the K3 high
> enough to produce 4 to 5 bars on the "ALC" meter, and setting your
> desired power output with the K3 power knob?
> If you are trying to use the audio level to control the power output,
> it will behave much as you have described. The K3 measures the power
> output, and decides there is not enough to match the setting of your
> power knob, so it increases the drive attempting to produce more power.
> Drive the audio input so you have at least 4 ALC bars with maybe the
> 5th flickering.
> The "ALC" meter on the K3 is not completely an indication of ALC - the
> first 4 bars act more like a VU meter to tell you the audio level.
> The 5th bar indicates the start of ALC action.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Jack Brabham wrote:
>> Well, here's a follow up.
>>
>> A week after the assumed return posting date, I emailed, asking for a
>> status update and got a phone call from Elecraft the next day.
>> Nothing had happened during that week, apparently the return shipping
>> just fell thru a crack and didn't occur (and yes, they are swamped
>> with work).
>>
>> So we got that moving and I received the radio on the 15th.
>>
>> Still exhibits the same problem it had when I sent it in.
>>
>> So I'm now 3 and a half months into my K3 ownership and still can't
>> get on SSB. Considering that I bought the radio specifically for SSB
>> contesting and sold all my other radios to pay for the K3, this is
>> not making me a happy camper.
>>
>> I haven't the slightest doubt that what I was told by Elecraft was
>> 100% accurate, that the low output problem was confirmed on the bench
>> and that an EEINIT had "fixed" it, and it stayed "fixed" while at
>> Elecraft. However, as someone who spent 30 years or so
>> troubleshooting complex systems, the fact that several previous
>> EEINITs had failed to fix the problem would have been a big red flag
>> that I had not yet got to the root cause of the issue.
>>
>> So I emailed Rene and let him know the problem was back. I expect
>> I'll hear from him early next week and we will figure out the next step.
>>
>> BTW here's a quick summary of the "problem" in hopes someone on the
>> list may have an idea to try.
>>
>> (1) Low average output on SSB, typically 10 to 15 watts (AVG)
>> according to my W2 and confirmed in that it only drives my SB-200 to
>> about 150 watts when driven by voice. This occurs with what I take
>> to be normal metering indications from the K3, 5 to 7 bars of ALC, a
>> few bars of compression and the PO meter "hanging" around 50 watts
>> with peaks up around 100W.
>>
>> (2) Weird power fluctations in PSK31. With higher audio
>> frequencies, when PSK1 idle tones are transmitted, the power out will
>> start at about 50 to 60 watts and rise to a nominal 75 watts or so
>> over 15 to 20 seconds. If I preform this test repeatedly with a
>> few seconds "off" time between tests, the "starting" PO number gets
>> progressively higher each time. After 6 to 8 test cycles the power
>> will only vary a few watts.
>>
>> However if I power cycle the K3, changing nothing else, the PO
>> reverts to starting at 50 watts or so drifting up to normal over
>> several seconds, repeating the whole sequence.
>>
>> At lower audio frequencies, below around 800 hz, the overall PO
>> tapers off, and is down 50% at 300 hz. TX EQ is flat, and all config
>> parameters are still as received from Elecraft repair except RS-232
>> baud rate and the mic selection.
>>
>> To me, at this point, the two most likely possibilities are
>> something mechanically/physically intermittent in the K3 (although it
>> has never worked normally for me), or something in the local station
>> environment.
>>
>> I have tried 3 mics, a Heil PR22 and both elements of a Heil Pro-set,
>> FP, RP, and Line-IN, thru a pro-audio chain or direct connected with
>> no change. Recordings on the internal DVR sound fine on Monitor but
>> exhibit the same problem. The power supply is solid at 13.8V. High
>> quality station ground system. Everything else works fine, superb
>> reception, normal CW operation, PSK works if I keep the audio carrier
>> above 1000 hz.
>>
>> The DSP board was swapped out before sending the radio in.
>>
>> I would be just totally tickled to discover the problem is something
>> stupid I'm doing or not doing, or a function of some other problem in
>> my station setup, but I don't know what the heck it would be.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> 73 Jack KZ5A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/2/2010 10:50 AM, Jack Brabham wrote:
>>> I agree that a posted repair queue length figure would probably
>>> eliminate a lot of angst by setting reasonable expectations. Probably
>>> eliminate a lot of phone calls to Elecraft as well. A weekly
>>> prognostication would be more than adequate for my purposes.
>>>
>>> Another thing that could use a little work is the level of
>>> communication.
>>>
>>> Last Friday I got a call from Elecraft stating that the symptoms (low
>>> SSB PO) had been confirmed, and that an EEINIT had resolved the
>>> problem.
>>> My K3 was going to "soak" over the weekend and shipout Monday (last)
>>> if was still good. I was glad to hear it was coming back but a bit
>>> curious as to why the first half a dozen or so times we did an EEINIT
>>> had not resolved the problem.
>>>
>>> Now its a week later, I don't know if my K3 is back in the shop (as I
>>> suspect) or if it is has been shipped and I need to hang around to
>>> receive it... I'm sure I could call and get an update but, being lazy,
>>> I would rather just get a short simple email periodically while the
>>> RSA is open or anytime there is a status update.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Jack KZ5A
>>>
>>> K3 #4165
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 Repair

Jack,

Yes, the K3 has to recalculate the power drive after a power cycle or a
band change - so let's not call that part of the process "creep", it is
just the K3 power control mechanism coming up to speed with the power
setting that you requested using the Power Knob. The power will start
out a bit low and then come up to the level requested. It will then
stay there until a power cycle or a band change.

What power level do you have set? That is an important piece of
information.

Initially, ignore the power output and set the audio level correctly.
You can (and should) use TX TEST for that adjustment.
For SSB, talk in a normal voice.
Set Compression to zero
Then adjust the mic gain until you have between 5 and 7 bars indicated
on the K3 ALC meter display - the peaks should be at 7 bars.
Now add compression as desired.
Set your wattmeter to read the peak power (not peak-hold in the AVG
setting).
Connect a dummy load and speak into the microphone. After a few
syllables (to allow the power control mechanism to stabilize), how
closely do the wattmeter peaks come to the power you set on the power
knob? It should be close.

For data modes, the process is similar.
Use TX TEST to set the audio level.
Set Compression to zero (it should stay there for all data modes)
Adjust the audio into the K3 to provide 4 to 5 bars on the ALC meter -
actual ALC does not start until after the 5th bar, so that will keep the
level below the onset of ALC.
Set the K3 power control to the power output you want.
Transmit, and after the initial power leveling mechanism has had a bit
of time to settle, the power should equal what you dialed in on the
power control.

Yes, for DATA modes, the K3 is different than other transceivers out
there - ignore the usual recommendation to set the power high and use
the audio input level to control the power - due to the way the K3
controls power (by sampling the actual output and adjusting drive to
compensate), attempting to use the techniques that vary the audio level
in order to control power will result in "strange happenings". While it
will work, I will not guarantee the power level will be right, and you
will have to ride the audio input level to keep it constant (don't do it
that way).

What I have related is nothing different than the information in the K3
manual (except for the maximum number of ALC bars in DATA mode.
If you wnat to double check the veracity of what I am saying, look in
the archives for Lyle Johnson's reflector post of February 8, 2009.
Lyle designed the K3 DSP (and its control of the power out), so he
should be considered an authoritative source.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jack Brabham wrote:

> Don,
>
> What I'm watching to see the "creep" is the W2 meter's Windows app
> with the meters set to AVG and the peak hold bar ON. I'm
> interpreting this as the "peak" of the fluctuating "average" power
> level???? This is the number that rolls up around 50% during the
> first 20 seconds of an initial transmission after a power cycle.
>
> If I change the meters to "peak", the numbers change as you would
> expect, the initial "peak" power starts off around 70 watts and drifts
> up to around 95.
>
> BTW normal PSK31 etc operation in DATA A seems to proceed as expected
> as long as I stay above 1000 hz or so for the audio. Below that there
> is an increasingly noticeable reduction in PO, but otherwise functions
> normally.
>
> I'm using my PSK31 program as an audio generator for these tests, not
> having anything better to use. In this role it is not adjusted the
> same way one would for actual PSK operation. Do not try this at
> home...... ;)
>
> I have tried, in the last hour or so, increasing the audio drive
> levels and decreasing the mic and line-in gain. This somewhat
> reduced the power creep issue, at least in terms of the number of
> transmission cycles before it "settles", but the radio still seems to
> have to "relearn" this from scratch after a power cycle.
>
> Reducing the Mic gain from 18 to 6 and increasing the output from my
> mic pre-amp to get 4-5 bars of ALC, did not seem to help the low
> output on SSB problem.
>
> Thanks for the tip about the ALC meter, makes more sense now.
>
> 73 Jack KZ5A
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 Repair - ALC Setting

In reply to this post by hf4me

Jim.

I might add that your PSK "problem" of working above 1000 Hz on the
waterfall may be a result of setting the K3 power high an using the
audio input level to control the power.

While that is the best for most of the transceivers in the marketplace,
it is NOT the way to operate a K2 or K3. The reason is that the K2 and
K3 control power differently than most transceivers. I have been
stressing this point, and it seems to fall on deaf ears.

Set the audio input to the proper level - for the K2 that is to increase
the audio until 1 ALC bar shows, and then back off until nonoe ar
showing, and for the K3, adjust until you have 4 to 5 bars on the ALC
display.

After doing that, set the power output desired and just operate. There
will be no 'fiddling' needed to adjust the audio level, and if there are
slight variations in the transmit filter gain across the passband, they
will be smoothed out by the K2/3 power control mechanism.`

Yes, this is different from the classical advice for data modes that is
prevalent in cyberspace, but then most rigs do not control power outpt
levels like the K2 and K3, so that advice may be valid for the YaKenIcom
bunch, it is not good advice for the Elecraft transceivers. Read the
Elecraft K3 manual and believe it (except that the max ALC meter in data
modes should be 5 instead of 7).
Your reward will be easier operation on DATA modes and better power
control and IMD (unless you operate with "all controls (including power)
to the right").

73,
Don W3FPR

Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
>
> snip
>
>> The "ALC" meter on the K3 is not completely an indication of ALC - the
>> first 4 bars act more like a VU meter to tell you the audio level. The
>> 5th bar indicates the start of ALC action.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>
> I may be reading something into part of what you say, straighten me out.
>
> Is the ALC setting at 4-5 bars the "norm" for any mode other than "PSK"?
> Should it be 4-5 for SSB and other modes as well???
>
> Thanks es 73, de Jim KG0KP
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>