K3 S Meter behavior

[The Smiths]

Yes, you can change the gain structure of your receiver.  If you want -20dB turn on the ATT, if you want plus 6dB put on the Pre, turn them both on and you've only cut -14dB..  My numbers may be off, but the theory is still there.  It's just about having the ability for variables in your adjustments.  Or you can just think of it as "a little less ATT"..
 

> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:59:37 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
> Don
> I performed both functions and they pretty much delivered the expexted results.
> However, I noticed something I consider counter-intuitive. It is possible to
> engage PRE and ATT simultaneously. Is there any advantage to this?
>
> Paul, NU4C
>
> ________________________________
>
> >From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> >To: Robert Mitilieri - N9EF <[hidden email]>
> >Cc: [hidden email]
> >Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 12:30:07 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
>
> >Robert,
>
> >You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
> >If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the
> >preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the
> >Attenuator ON. <snip>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Ken Kopp-3]

Has there -ever- been a subject in ham radio that's
generated as much argument and discussion over
the years?  I think not.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP


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[The Smiths]

Exactly!  

Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST.  

Now R is  just that, Readability. How well can you copy someone.  S is Strength of the meter, which everyone should have set to the same approximate level, and T for quality of tone.

Some old habits die hard.  Not everything first invented in Ham radio has to be forced until the world ends.  Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve as ham radio operators.

 


 

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:38:09 -0500
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
> Actually the S meter is used so the Strength of the signal report is *not* subjective, that's reserved for Readability. I firmly believe that the Strength report must *not* be subjective, why else ever put a meter to measure signal Strength? In the case of signal Strength we *must* differentiate between perception and reality so we can let different stations know how strong their signals are received at our location, not how loud they sound; the two can be vastly different.
>
> ...and use of the S meter to report signal strength is supported by the referenced link:
>
> "The S stands for "Strength". Strength is an assessment of how powerful the received signal is at the receiving location. Although an accurate signal strength meter can determine a quantitative value for signal strength, in practice this portion of the RST code is a qualitative assessment, often made based on the S meter of the radio receiver at the location of signal reception."
>
> On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:00 AM, K5WA wrote:
>
> > TheSmiths said:
> >
> > "559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent."
> >
> > Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S meter readings but this perception is a common misconception.
> >
> > 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no trace of ripple or modulation of any kind.
> >
> > The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal
> > strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed.
> >
> > The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code
> >
>
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[W8JI]

> Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off
> reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some
> time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we
> were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a
> STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST.


There may be a "standard" some people believe in, but it is a "paper
standard" that never took hold. Drake used 5 db per S unit as a goal, ICOM
about the same. Collins was down around 3 dB per S unit as a target.

Most receivers are around 1 dB or so per S unit down around S 1, and very
few prior to digital processing were ever remotely linear over the S range.

My FT1000MP MKV, sitting in front of me now, is 2 S units per 6 dB at S8 and
the very same 6 db pad drops it from S5 to S0 (it has that scale point, even
though there is no such thing).

I've never measured the K3 for many reasons. S meters historically have been
very poor, absolute signal level at a receiver is not an indication of field
strength in volts-per-meter, volts-per-meter is not a constant indication of
S/N ratio or even how "loud" a signal is, and so on. This whole thing is an
exercise similar to arguing how to measure plate milliamps using #47 light
bulb.

How would Elecraft or anyone else measure the meaningless S units of an S3
signal when RF gain is set so the DSP only sees an S5 signal at the lowest
signal sensitivity? Why work to know what isn't even important, and what is
never useful?

73 Tom




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[Gary Dezern]

As this drifts further from the original topic...

I find it amusing that a station will ask me to repeat my callsign and name several times, and then give me a "59" report.

I think I messed up several people over the weekend contest by giving them "5-7 08" reports instead of what they expected.  One station actually lost their "contest tempo" when I came back with "45 zone 8."  

Working back toward the original topic...

I generally give signal reports based on what I think the signal would be with the RF gain fully clockwise, and attenuator and preamp both turned off.  To me, that would be the "natural" and unmodified smeter reading.  (I've never given better than 57 on 10 meters.)   This best meets my understanding of what that portion of the signal report should be:  A report of signal level as it is received by my rig (and not a signal level as my rig has modified it.)

Of course, I'm a "newbie" ham, so I'm probably doing it all wrong.

73 - Gary / k3wow

On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:21 PM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> Exactly!  
>
> Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST.  
>
> Now R is  just that, Readability. How well can you copy someone.  S is Strength of the meter, which everyone should have set to the same approximate level, and T for quality of tone.
>
> Some old habits die hard.  Not everything first invented in Ham radio has to be forced until the world ends.  Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve as ham radio operators.
>

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[Grant Youngman]

On Jul 15, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:

>
> There may be a "standard" some people believe in, but it is a "paper
> standard" that never took hold.

I always thought the standard was "you're 5x9 here OM, and please repeat your call, QTH and my signal report"  :-)

Grant/NQ5T
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

This topic has easily exceeded the 'Too many postings' limit.  Time to
end this topic for now.

In the future, on a high volume topic like this, please self regulate. :-)

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft List modulator

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[Mike Reublin]

  Did you mean  "The readability part will let him know if _your_  rig is doing a
good job of filtering.." instead of "The readability part will let him know if _his_
rig is doing a good job of filtering..."?
'
73, Mike NF4L

On 7/15/2010 12:38 PM, The Smiths wrote:

> Rich,
>
>
>
> You DO tell the other person how you are "receiving" them.. That's the R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report.  The S meter still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH.
>
> Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed.  The guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor)..
>
> The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of filtering the noise so he can copy you.  I've had RST reports of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>>
>> I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on
>> this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your
>> ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same.
>>
>> Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm
>> hearing that the actual power stays the same.
>>
>> We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we
>> can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear
>> by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the
>> best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity
>> to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the
>> same effect.
>>
>> That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like
>> something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It
>> seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are
>> receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that
>> is the result of more than the meter reading.
>>
>>  
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[David Gilbert]

I think you miss my point entirely.  I never said that you needed to
know the gain characteristics of your antenna ... only that since you
don't (none of us do since we don't know what the arrival angle is) any
S-meter reading is only a relative indication of received signal
strength anyway.  You're all upset that the S-meter on the K3 (as with
just about every other rig on the market) shifts as you change RF Gain,
but in all reality it is a meaningless consideration anyway.  "Relative"
is all you get no matter what you think the K3 should be able to do, or
would be able to do if it had a lab quality RF voltmeter.

I'm not trying to impress anyone or be overly technical, but I will try
to put it in simpler terms for you.  Let's say that you have two
antennas that both function on 40m but physically they don't look at all
alike.  Neither you nor the guy on the other end has any clue what the
gain, pattern, and efficiency is for either of them.  Let's also say
that you have a calibrated RF microvoltmeter (complete with handy chart
to convert to S-units if desired) and you check his signal on both
antennas.  As expected, you get different readings from the two
antennas.  What do you give the other guy for his report?  You have two
different voltmeter readings and since you don't know the parameters of
either antenna, neither reading has any correlation at all to the
strength of the arriving signal.  Even your own two readings are not the
same.  Your only recourse is to give the guy a subjective report
relative to other signals on the band at the time.  So how is that any
different than what you have right now?

You stated, "I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to
tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure
that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it
should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it
to with an S9."

Yet, when I pointed out the even greater influence of the antenna on
"the actual signal level of a station" you're talking to, you reply that
it's silly and irrelevant.

There's something wrong with that picture.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 7/15/2010 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote:

> What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be
> so over technical about EVERYTHING.  I'm certain that sometimes being
> TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self.  This is an S meter,
> it's used by some to give an S report.  Part of an RST.. This isn't a
> scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in
> XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you
> have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4
> S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct..
> They have an RS(T) of 54(9).
>
> Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard"
> for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my
> goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his
> azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP,
> and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse,
> try to be technical to impress people on the reflector.  We all know
> that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of
> things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE
> with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts,
> not on how to read an S meter.
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> >
> >
> > Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss
> > of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth
> > relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately
> > tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your
> > property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in
> > that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding
> > yourself if you think differently.
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave AB7E
> >
> >
> > On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> > > I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And
> your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre
> is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're
> not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate
> that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted.
> > >
> > > I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me
> the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that
> Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should
> be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to
> with an S9.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've
> done it too..
> > >
> > > But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying
> you don't know what to tell the guy.
> > >
> > > If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what
> you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone
> that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address
> he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he
> guides the people asking in the wrong direction.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning
> down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength.
> Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering
> my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING
> going on with your rig.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check
> your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else
> like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that
> you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up
> causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the
> things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at
> least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar
> rig's S meter.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400
> > >> From: [hidden email]
> > >> To: [hidden email]
> > >> CC: [hidden email]
> > >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> > >>
> > >> Robert,
> > >>
> > >> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
> > >> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the
> S-meter,
> > >> but it is just good operating sense.
> > >>
> > > just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
> > >
> > >> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy
> from a
> > >> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy
> with
> > >> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
> > >> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.
> > >>
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________
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[The Smiths]

I don't know about your rigs, but My Icom 706, My Ten Tec Omni 1, Yaesu 767GX circa 1980 and my Yaesu FT-2000D all seem to match my K3's S meter reading all within one S unit.  That's close enough for me....  This is a Hobby, not an exact science.  At least if someone on the air gives me an S3 reading I know approximately how well I'm doing at his QTH given the idea I know HIS antenna set up, and Mine.  That's good enough for me.  
 

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:52:29 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
> > Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated to me in off
> > reflector email) we used to not use the meter for the S report, at some
> > time (1970's when proper calibration and standardizations' came about) we
> > were able to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a
> > STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST.
>
>
> There may be a "standard" some people believe in, but it is a "paper
> standard" that never took hold. Drake used 5 db per S unit as a goal, ICOM
> about the same. Collins was down around 3 dB per S unit as a target.
>
> Most receivers are around 1 dB or so per S unit down around S 1, and very
> few prior to digital processing were ever remotely linear over the S range.
>
> My FT1000MP MKV, sitting in front of me now, is 2 S units per 6 dB at S8 and
> the very same 6 db pad drops it from S5 to S0 (it has that scale point, even
> though there is no such thing).
>
> I've never measured the K3 for many reasons. S meters historically have been
> very poor, absolute signal level at a receiver is not an indication of field
> strength in volts-per-meter, volts-per-meter is not a constant indication of
> S/N ratio or even how "loud" a signal is, and so on. This whole thing is an
> exercise similar to arguing how to measure plate milliamps using #47 light
> bulb.
>
> How would Elecraft or anyone else measure the meaningless S units of an S3
> signal when RF gain is set so the DSP only sees an S5 signal at the lowest
> signal sensitivity? Why work to know what isn't even important, and what is
> never useful?
>
> 73 Tom
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[ussv dharma]

I have to agree....it UPSETS me that almost every station gives 599 or 40/9 sig reports but asks for call signs three or four times.

My usual response...."sorry, no qso with lids" and I change frequency.

Cranky? yes!, out of tune with the times?  Maybe!...but having been on the air steady for over 56 years, and being 75 years old...yep, that's me.  I give accurate "how I hear you" reports...many times that is enhance by the radio I am using, "communications" is the operative word.


Grandmaw Susan.

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm  AFA9SM                         USSV DHARMA 


--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Gary Dezern <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Gary Dezern <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> To: "The Smiths" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 8:13 AM
> As this drifts further from the
> original topic...
>
> I find it amusing that a station will ask me to repeat my
> callsign and name several times, and then give me a "59"
> report.
>
> I think I messed up several people over the weekend contest
> by giving them "5-7 08" reports instead of what they
> expected.  One station actually lost their "contest
> tempo" when I came back with "45 zone 8." 
>
> Working back toward the original topic...
>
> I generally give signal reports based on what I think the
> signal would be with the RF gain fully clockwise, and
> attenuator and preamp both turned off.  To me, that
> would be the "natural" and unmodified smeter reading. 
> (I've never given better than 57 on 10
> meters.)   This best meets my understanding
> of what that portion of the signal report should be:  A
> report of signal level as it is received by my rig (and not
> a signal level as my rig has modified it.)
>
> Of course, I'm a "newbie" ham, so I'm probably doing it all
> wrong.
>
> 73 - Gary / k3wow
>
> On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:21 PM, The Smiths wrote:
>
> >
> > Exactly! 
> >
> > Regardless of the fact that in 1934 (as was indicated
> to me in off reflector email) we used to not use the meter
> for the S report, at some time (1970's when proper
> calibration and standardizations' came about) we were able
> to shift that OLD antiquated 1934's definition over to a
> STANDARDIZED S meter reading as part of the RST. 
> >
> > Now R is  just that, Readability. How well can
> you copy someone.  S is Strength of the meter, which
> everyone should have set to the same approximate level, and
> T for quality of tone.
> >
> > Some old habits die hard.  Not everything first
> invented in Ham radio has to be forced until the world
> ends.  Much to some peoples Chagrin, we DO evolve as
> ham radio operators.
> >
>
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[ussv dharma]

Aloha Peoples:

being raised in "tube type" electronics I do not profess to understand solid state beyond the "hole " theory.   Thus, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT THE RECEIVER/ANTENNA DOES TO THE SIGNAL...the main thing is that I can hear you and understand what you are saying.

Is it "arm chair copy"?  Do you have an "old time 75 meter bodacious" signal?  

Bottom line, It all does not matter as my antenna/receiver/filter/hearing aid/ear combination effects the received signal that I just cant say how strong your signal is....now, if I had a station equipped with all the lab equipment I want, perhaps then I could tell you your 'RELATIVE' signal strength.

my last post on this subject.

Grandmaw Susan
If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm  AFA9SM                         USSV DHARMA 


--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Tom W8JI <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> To: "drewko" <[hidden email]>, "The Smiths" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:27 AM
> > Personally, I would prefer that
> the s-meter not operate in this way in
> > ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter
> action when in
> > ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not.
>
> It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the
> system works, or
> require a separate receiver just for the S meter.
>
> The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the
> real signal
> level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even
> significantly more than that
> amount.
>
> How and why would someone design a DSP system that could
> measure the level
> on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no
> cheap or easy way
> to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. 
> Ever since receivers
> began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter
> reading in
> relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the
> increase in gain
> reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain
> is reduced.
>
> I think you want something that cannot be done.
>
> Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only
> use mine to tell
> me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp.
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Bob Stevens-2]

Amen!

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ussv dharma
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:36 PM
To: drewko; The Smiths; Tom W8JI
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior

Aloha Peoples:

being raised in "tube type" electronics I do not profess to understand solid
state beyond the "hole " theory.   Thus, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT THE
RECEIVER/ANTENNA DOES TO THE SIGNAL...the main thing is that I can hear you
and understand what you are saying.

Is it "arm chair copy"?  Do you have an "old time 75 meter bodacious"
signal?  

Bottom line, It all does not matter as my antenna/receiver/filter/hearing
aid/ear combination effects the received signal that I just cant say how
strong your signal is....now, if I had a station equipped with all the lab
equipment I want, perhaps then I could tell you your 'RELATIVE' signal
strength.

my last post on this subject.

Grandmaw Susan
If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're
headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm  AFA9SM                        
USSV DHARMA 


--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Tom W8JI <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> To: "drewko" <[hidden email]>, "The Smiths" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:27 AM
> > Personally, I would prefer that
> the s-meter not operate in this way in
> > ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter
> action when in
> > ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not.
>
> It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the
> system works, or
> require a separate receiver just for the S meter.
>
> The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the
> real signal
> level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even
> significantly more than that
> amount.
>
> How and why would someone design a DSP system that could
> measure the level
> on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no
> cheap or easy way
> to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. 
> Ever since receivers
> began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter
> reading in
> relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the
> increase in gain
> reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain
> is reduced.
>
> I think you want something that cannot be done.
>
> Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only
> use mine to tell
> me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp.
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Richard-3]

Understood.  My poorly described point was that the signal strength as
reported by the s-meter may not provide a good description of the signal
strength you heard which may be influenced by the ?bandwidth? of the
signal passing through the meter.  Readability can be influenced by
factors other than by signal strength.

How wide is the band being read by the s-meter circuit, and can signal
strength be influenced by the power distribution within that s-meter
band width, in particular by varying the TX or RX equalizer?

Rich
NU6T

On 7/15/2010 9:38 AM, The Smiths wrote:

> Rich,
>
> You DO tell the other person how you are "receiving" them.. That's the
> R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy
> of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report.  The S meter
> still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH.
> Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise
> out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting
> right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal
> strength has changed.  The guy on the other end of the radio just
> wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his
> antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor)..
> The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job
> of filtering the noise so he can copy you.  I've had RST reports
> of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal
> strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy
> of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most
> likely got a 419 instead.
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> >
> > I don't really understand, but would be interested in more
> discussion on
> > this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your
> > ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same.
> >
> > Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm
> > hearing that the actual power stays the same.
> >
> > We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we
> > can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we
> hear
> > by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the
> > best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity
> > to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the
> > same effect.
> >
> > That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like
> > something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It
> > seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are
> > receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that
> > is the result of more than the meter reading.
> >
> >
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