K3: S-meter calibration (redux)

[Mike F.]

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Toby Deinhardt <[hidden email]>

> >> User settable.
>
> I'm not sure I really like this at all. S-meters are meaningless if they
> do not adhere to some kind of norm.

I tend to agree.  If someone doesn't want to use or place any importance on a particular S-meter reading that's fine - I tend to be that way as well.  But the fact that it's a "meter" suggests - as does its intended purpose - that it represents some type of standard of measurement.  Therefore IMO it's worth having your meter adhere to that, whether or not you choose to pay any attention to it.  Why call it a cup if in fact it's a tablespoon?

On this reflector, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the XG1 and XG2 kits that can be used to easily calibrate an S-meter *to* a known standard.  I used the XG2 first to become acquainted with Elecraft kit building (now I can't get enough!), and then to check the meter on my FT-857D (which needs a slight adjustment as it's reading a tad high at 50uV).

--
73,
Mike, KC0KBC
Yaesu FT-857D, FT-8800R, VX-7RB
Elecraft KX1 #1819 (in work), XG2
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[dj7mgq]

Hi Mike,

> On this reflector, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the XG1 and XG2 kits that can be used to easily calibrate an S-meter *to* a known standard.  I used the XG2 first to become acquainted with Elecraft kit building (now I can't get enough!), and then to check the meter on my FT-857D (which needs a slight adjustment as it's reading a tad high at 50uV).

Many rigs use the AGC voltage for the s-meter, which means often,
especially below S9, the curve is anything but 6dB per S-meter-unit. So
even if your rig does S9 correctly, the chances are that S5 will be
wildly wrong.

But you are right, better a correct indication of S9 than nothing. And
the XG1 is a nice tool for this, especially if you can verify the signal
level which it is producing.

vy 73 de toby
--
DD5FZ, 4N6FZ (ex dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #??? (< #200)
DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG
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[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

Mike wrote:

> I tend to agree.  If someone doesn't want to use or place any
> importance on a particular S-meter reading that's fine - I tend to be
> that way as well.  But the fact that it's a "meter" suggests - as
> does its intended purpose - that it represents some type of standard
> of measurement.  Therefore IMO it's worth having your meter adhere to
> that, whether or not you choose to pay any attention to it.  Why call
> it a cup if in fact it's a tablespoon?

The S-meter has always been conceived to represent signal strength in terms of
dB relative to a fixed intercept (nominally, in many quarters, 50 uV = S9).
When you are measuring dB, you are measuring a ratio of two voltages, not an
absolute quantity of voltage (though that can of course be derived from
calibration data). Changing the slope and intercept of the S-meter is no
different than changing the scaling factors on an old analog VTVM. The face
might look different after you do it, the needle might react differently, but
it still reads the same quantities if you know the calibration of the thing.
>From that perspective, it doesn't really matter HOW the S-meter is calibrated,
as long as it IS calibrated.

Given the almost complete absence of any kind of accepted standard, I think
Wayne made exactly the right call in making the S-meter user-programmable. We
now have the opportunity, given this new feature, to experiment and see what
really works best, and make a LOGICAL case for establishing that as a
standard.

Bill / W5WVO


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[Dick Dickinson]

...seems the on-air rag-chew talk these days is more and more about fine
settings and precision...comments to others that they, 'are 27 Hz off
frequency' and the like.  That was a non-issue before a couple more decimal
places were added to the right and scopes were built in.  

Will we now be faced with windy discussions when giving a station a signal
report about, 'how my s-meter is calibrated?'

Amateur radio is a technical hobby.  Yet some would like to talk about
things other than issues that are way to the right of the decimal point.

With no attempt towards a standard, the s-meter report one receives degrades
further in relevance.  If one sets their own radio's s-meter in a way that
suits them for use as an instrument for other than signal reports, is it
appropriate to use that to report signal strength to the rest of the ham
community?

Specialization is fine...to a point.  At some point it becomes it becomes an
exclusive nitch.  Are we hearing more and more QSOs where if a person can't
talk about a particular brand/model of radio or feature of function of a
radio, they won't be included in the QSO?  Some can find nothing to QSO
about other than radio and precision.  Never mind accuracy and as another
said, 'consistency.'  Overall, 'fraternity' (for lack of a better term)
breaks down and insider cliques grow.

How many ________ enthusiasts does it take to dance in a chorus line to the
right of a decimal point?  (Fill in the blank with any particular specialty
you care to.)

Okay...resume target practice.


Regards,
Dick - KA5KKT/4

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[peter gerba]

Kn6bi Signal Report Rules:
Ya don't need no stinking S meter..

If the station is copy-able, with ease; He's S9

If he's copy-able with some trouble; He's S5

If he's not very copy-able and DX and you need a card; He's S9

If he's not very copy-able and doesn't qualify for the above; He's S3

If he's loud and has a good fist; He's 20/S9

Same as above with a bad fist; He's S9

If you know he's got a stack of mono-banders and is running 10KW and you
like the guy or need a card.. He's 20/S9

If you know he's got a stack of mono-banders and is running 10KW and you DON
'T like the guy or DON'T need a card.. He's S9  (Tell him he used to have a
great sig on 20.. did he make antenna changes? He needs a K3, his finals
must be flat, call Eimac, what-ever..)


pete kn6bi


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:31 AM
To: [Elecraft] Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3: S-meter calibration (redux)



On Jun 7, 2007, at 10:12 AM, Darwin, Keith wrote:

> I disagree with this.  If S-meter cal was indeed a standard, that's
> one
> thing but the reality of S-meters is that they are all over the map.
>
> If I calibrate my rig and know how many dB per s-unit than I'm far
> ahead
> of my peers who only *think* they know.  If I have 4 dB per unit I
> expect to see a 2.5 unit jump when the other guy kicks on the linear.

I find it interesting that people say they disagree with me and then
go on to agree with me.

The points I am making are:

1. Most radios have S-meters that don't tell you anything useful
other than, "the signal is bigger or smaller." Why bother with the
meter if your ear can do just as well and probably more accurately?

2. Just because everyone else has crap for a meter doesn't mean you
should too.

3. Having a meter that accurately tells you the received signal
strength, one that can be accurately turned into relative dB changes
or, better still, changes relative to 0dBm, is a very good thing.

4. Being able to sit down at a random radio, look at its meter, and
know what it is telling you without having to get a lesson from its
owner would be really nice.

The only question is what the calibration should be. If the FCC
didn't put it on the test and if there weren't a european standard, I
would say "hey, knock yourself out; do what makes you happy so long
as it is consistent."

But we do actually have a standard and we do (finally) have a radio
that can perform accurate measurement to that standard. Why throw
that away?

Sorry, I have carried on too long about this. When I get my K3 I can
set its meter to give me real measurements in S-units. If you use my
radio you will know that what you had to learn for your FCC exam is
actually reflected in the behavior of the meter in my radio.

Oh, and I want a meter with resolution that corresponds to the
accuracy of the measurement. ;-)

Uh, and can I have it for $59 too? :-)

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com


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[dj7mgq]

Hallo Bill,

> user-programmable. We now have the opportunity, given this new feature,
> to experiment and see what really works best, and make a LOGICAL case
> for establishing that as a standard.

6dB makes a lot of sense to me: 1 S-unit = 6db = factor 2 in voltage.

This is the Region 1 recommendation:
------------------------------------------
IARU Region 1 Technical Recommendation R.1

BRIGHTON 1981, TORREMOLINOS 1990

STANDARDISATION OF S-METER READINGS

1. One S-unit corresponds to a signal level difference of 6 dB,

2. On the bands below 30 MHz a meter deviation of S-9 corresponds to an
available power of -73 dBm from a  continuous wave signal generator
connected to the receiver input terminals,

3. On the bands above 30 MHz this available power shall be -93 dBm,

4. The metering system shall be based on quasi-peak detection with an
attack time of 10 msec ∀ 2 msec and a decay time constant of at least
500 msec.
------------------------------------------

But *MUCH, MUCH* better is Wayne's plan to display dBm.

I do wonder what timing Wayne will use.

vy 73 de toby
--
DD5FZ, 4N6FZ (ex dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #??? (< #200)
DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Very good.

I'm sure that, in order to facilitate better understanding, all contesters
are careful to give accurate S-meter reports in every exchange too.....;-)

"Honest" signal reports have been an issue since I opened my first copy of
"How to Become a Radio Amateur". Personally, I think the commercial
operators got it right by adopting the QSA reporting system:

QSA 1 = scarcely perceptible
QSA 2 = weak
QSA 3 = fairly good
QSA 4 = good
QSA 5 = very good

Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----

Kn6bi Signal Report Rules:
Ya don't need no stinking S meter..

If the station is copy-able, with ease; He's S9

If he's copy-able with some trouble; He's S5

If he's not very copy-able and DX and you need a card; He's S9

If he's not very copy-able and doesn't qualify for the above; He's S3

If he's loud and has a good fist; He's 20/S9

Same as above with a bad fist; He's S9

If you know he's got a stack of mono-banders and is running 10KW and you
like the guy or need a card.. He's 20/S9

If you know he's got a stack of mono-banders and is running 10KW and you DON
'T like the guy or DON'T need a card.. He's S9  (Tell him he used to have a
great sig on 20.. did he make antenna changes? He needs a K3, his finals
must be flat, call Eimac, what-ever..)


pete kn6bi

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[Brian Lloyd-6]

On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Toby Deinhardt wrote:

> 4. The metering system shall be based on quasi-peak detection with  
> an attack time of 10 msec ∀ 2 msec and a decay time constant of at  
> least 500 msec.

Hmm, peak rather than RMS voltage? If you are averaging then it needs  
to be something like RMS so that noise energy is properly accounted  
for. Peak works for an SSB signal but not so good for general  
measurement. I guess we need to ask Wayne for a peak/RMS switch.

> ------------------------------------------
>
> But *MUCH, MUCH* better is Wayne's plan to display dBm.

Yes.

>
> I do wonder what timing Wayne will use.

And don't forget attack/decay time for the peak-reading meter and  
integration time for the RMS meter function. :-)

Oh dear, this could get SO out-of-hand. Sorry.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com


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[dj7mgq]

>> I do wonder what timing Wayne will use.
>
> And don't forget attack/decay time for the peak-reading meter and
> integration time for the RMS meter function. :-)

You could of course read a stream of values into a computer via the
RS-232 port and then do all kinds of stuff with da data.

((( Oh dear, I mentioned something new )))


> Oh dear, this could get SO out-of-hand. Sorry.

Yep. We should stop while we are ahead... hi hi

Let's declare an eot before Eric has to.

vy 73 de toby
--
DD5FZ, 4N6FZ (ex dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #??? (< #200)
DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Edward Dickinson III wrote:

>
> Will we now be faced with windy discussions when giving a station a signal
> report about, 'how my s-meter is calibrated?'

Well, the true tinkerer in quest of "gnats eye" calibration would simply
calibrate his/her S meter with an accurate external signal generator.

Then, instead of telling someone they are S7, the person could actually give
them a DB report.  Sounds silly?  I remember so much spectrum and time be wasted
on 75 meters with folks arguing about S meter readings.

Of course we could simply query a station who gives us an S7, and ask how their
S Meter is calibrated.

This is all too technical for me...I'm still trying to determine how many angels
can dance upon a K3 power connector.

Thom,EIEIO
Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer
k3hrn

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[Thom LaCosta]

On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

>
> "Honest" signal reports have been an issue since I opened my first copy of
> "How to Become a Radio Amateur". Personally, I think the commercial
> operators got it right by adopting the QSA reporting system:

But the commercial operators had a primary concern of communicating information,
rather than being technical wizards.

Sigh, I know I'm out of step...I'd rather learn about the person on the other
end of QSO instead of how many dbs I am presenting to the internal measuring
point of his/her receiver.

Thom,EIEIO
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[Kevin Rock]

   When someone wants to tell me of their rig, their fancy antenna, and the "Oh wow" linear amp I tell them that's fine and dandy and proceed to ask them about their weather :)  I heard an IK op running stations the other evening on 20 meters.  His message mentioned name, QTH, RST, and weather report.  What he wanted in return was the weather report from each op he worked.  It stymied some of them who were big into the 599 thing but they finally figured out he really did wish to know something other than the standard QSO material.  I'd rather know the weather than the details of someone's rig too.  If I can hear them I assume their antenna is still up and their rig is not yet smoking!  I thought the idea of communication was to create a dialog between two people.  I don't really care if you're running 50 Terawatts or 100 milliwatts; I want to hear about you, your family, your cat (or pheasant), and, yes, your weather :)
   73,
      Kevin.  KD5ONS

-----Original Message-----

>From: Thom LaCosta <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Jun 7, 2007 1:18 PM
>To: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
>Cc: "'[Elecraft] Reflector'" <[hidden email]>
>Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Re: K3: S-meter calibration (redux)
>
>On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>
>>
>> "Honest" signal reports have been an issue since I opened my first copy of
>> "How to Become a Radio Amateur". Personally, I think the commercial
>> operators got it right by adopting the QSA reporting system:
>
>But the commercial operators had a primary concern of communicating information,
>rather than being technical wizards.
>
>Sigh, I know I'm out of step...I'd rather learn about the person on the other
>end of QSO instead of how many dbs I am presenting to the internal measuring
>point of his/her receiver.
>
>Thom,EIEIO
>Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer
>k3hrn
>
>www.baltimorehon.com/                    Home of the Baltimore Lexicon
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[Julian, G4ILO]

I'm amazed by this thread. Most S meters are pretty much AGC
voltmeters. They register practically nothing until the signal is more
or less readability 9 and then whizz up to S9 or so after which they
may approximate to the +10, +20db calibration. Whatever the K3 has
will be streets ahead of any other radio, allowing the user to set it
up to suit their own personal foibles / preferences.

But who cares about S meters? I run QRP. Nearly every report I get is
599. Most of the people I work are not running QRP so I'm not about to
offend them by giving a lower report than I got. Besides, while he's
sending his first over I'm entering his details into the log and never
even think to look at the meter before it's my turn to reply.
--
Julian, G4ILO
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Julian G4ILO wrote:

> But who cares about S meters? I run QRP.

Well, with a fully adjustable S-Meter...you could simply ask the other station
what S-Meter report he would like.

Thom,EIEIO
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[w6jd]

QSM?

de W6JD

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Thom LaCosta <[hidden email]>

> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Julian G4ILO wrote:
>
> > But who cares about S meters? I run QRP.
>
> Well, with a fully adjustable S-Meter...you could simply ask the other station
> what S-Meter report he would like.
>
> Thom,EIEIO
> Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer
>
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I sometimes wonder why we have S-Meters.  They've never been a scientific instrument to determine signal strength....at least not the ones I've seen.  I think that S-Meters are a marketing too....just try to sell a radio without one.  Hard to do.

However S-Meters are calibrated....I like to compare signals on the bands...so when I have a QSO...I can tell the person he is so and so loud in comparison to other signals on the band.  S-Meters (to me) are relative to the band conditions.

Lee - K0WA





In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common Sense divine?
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[k4tmc]

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[Tom-5]

 >I just added a task to my future-K3-firmware list: allow the VFO B
 >display to optionally show signal level in dBm. Three digits. Just for
you, Brian   :)
 >    73, Wayne     N6KR

 >In addition to the slope of the function (dB per S-unit), is the
 >scale set point user-configurable? Or is this hard-coded such that
 >S9=50 uV?

 >>User settable. ...Wayne


     OK, I overheard this at Dayton. As with everything on the K3, all
things are definable.

    Is it true that one can change the size of the cabinet, in both
English and Metric?

       Tom K8TB K3 Sn xxx



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[Thom LaCosta]

On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, K8TB wrote:

>   Is it true that one can change the size of the cabinet, in both English
> and Metric?

That option is a subset of the color change settings.

Be aware that the K3 senses the technical prowess of the user, so some menu
options may be hidden from Appliance Operators like myself.

Thankfully Elecraft did not take the suggestion of either an interactive user
skill qualifier or license class detector.


Thom,EIEIO
Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer
k3hrn

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

>From time to time a buddy will enlist my help in doing some signal strength
monitoring. That can be a useful exercise when working with stable signals
to compare various antennas at least over the path between that station and
mine.

When I do that I turn off the S-meter because I turn the AGC off. I put a
step attenuator in the antenna line and select some nominal amount of
attenuation - say -20 dB. Then I connect my DMM or a 'scope to read the AC
voltage at the speaker jack and note the audio his signal produces. That can
be a tone transmitted by him SSB or, best, the beat not produced from his CW
carrier.

He makes a change and I adjust the step attenuator to regain the *same*
voltage at the audio output. The attenuator shows me the dB change directly.


I've considered building an appropriate audio voltmeter into a homebrew
receiver but the need doesn't come up often enough to justify it. I have
built step attenuators into my receivers at the antenna jack that I use for
a RF gain control. I've often used 6 dB, since that is about the smallest
definite change in gain one notices in normal operation with typical QSB,
etc. A rotary switch attenuator is handy for that; just turn the knob. I
used two separate -40 dB attenuators cascaded with it, each with a simple
toggle switch, for a total of about 116 dB attenuator. Of course, it's
necessary to pay attention to isolating the inputs from the outputs for the
attenuation to be accurate, especially on the higher frequencies. With a
rotary switch, that starts to get difficult above 40 dB, so I limit the
range to that value and add to well-isolated single stage -40 dB attenuators
in series with it.

That attenuator at the antenna input become the main receiver gain control.
Like days of old, the audio gain is adjusted to the level just below that at
which the internal noise is audible, then the RF Gain - the attenuator -
controls the loudness of signals heard.

That makes for a lazy operator. If I notice that I have to switch in, say,
another 6 dB of attenuation as the other station's signal builds up during a
QSO, I can observe "UR SIG UP AN S UNIT HR OM..." during the next xmission.

I suppose I could calibrate the attenuator in "S-Units". That's definitely
not a new idea. A popular regenerative receiver from the 1930's featured
direct signal strength readout. They calibrated the volume control! As the
control was turned, the pointer passed "9" down near minimum gain and worked
through 8, 7, 6...to "1" at maximum gain. One tuned in a signal, set the
gain for comfortable listening, and then read the "S" report directly from
the pointer on the gain control knob!

Ron AC7AC




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