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[K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

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Phil Hystad-2

[K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

I am not sure how to describe this but I will do the best I can. When
listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency change
from the sending station. It almost sounds like some other very close by
(within 100 Hz) station is also sending but such another station does not
exist. I thought at first it might be a slight variation due to the
sender's frequency control but I have ruled that out as it occurs with a
number of different stations. I can hear this mostly (or, maybe only) when
the signals are strong, S9 and beyond.

Does anyone else detect this or is it just me. It is not really a bother
now that I am used to it but it seems to occur only when there is a slight
pause in the sending, such as break between words.

Comments?

73, phil, K7PEH
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n7ws

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

Could be short and long path at the same time.

Otherwise, you could be just hearing the harmonic distortion in the audio circuitry. Not only is there third order stuff, which is regrettable but not unusual, but my K3 has second order distortion that is well... I won't go into that.

A few days ago, I drug a passive audio filter that I used in my early EME days out of storage and plugged it in to the K3 and the difference was amazing.

In those days, I preferred a 600 Hz beat note; as I've aged, I prefer a lower one, around 450 Hz, so I'm considering building one for the new frequency.

Although the last thing my K3 needs is another dongle, passive filters have the advantage not requiring power and not (unless driven beyond belief) generating IMD.

(Speaking of EME and long and short path, I once was pointed at the setting moon looking for JA or UA0 when I heard a CQ. Then I heard another CQ on a slightly different frequency. It took a few moments to realize it was one station, W5UN. I was hearing him on tropo (900 mile path) off the back of the antenna and via EME off the front. The difference in path length and the Doppler turned him into two stations.)

--- On Thu, 3/11/10, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am not sure how to describe this
> but I will do the best I can. When
> listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone
> frequency change
> from the sending station. It almost sounds like some
> other very close by
> (within 100 Hz) station is also sending but such another
> station does not
> exist. I thought at first it might be a slight
> variation due to the
> sender's frequency control but I have ruled that out as it
> occurs with a
> number of different stations. I can hear this mostly
> (or, maybe only) when
> the signals are strong, S9 and beyond.
>
> Does anyone else detect this or is it just me. It is
> not really a bother
> now that I am used to it but it seems to occur only when
> there is a slight
> pause in the sending, such as break between words.
>
> Comments?
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>

Phil Hystad-2

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

Wes,

This is interesting. I was wondering if I was hearing some kind of audio
distortion of sorts but the idea of some kind of dual path process is maybe
what I can tell my non-ham friends to impress them with my K3 radio.

However, I really thought that this might be something that other's have
heard too. I have never heard this sort of thing on my Icom 756 Pro III.
Indeed, I even switched rigs from my K3 to my Pro III in the middle of a
QSO to see if I could hear the same kind of artifact occurring from the
sending station. I continued to send with my K3 but switched over the
antenna for the receive on my Pro III (just like the good old days) and the
subtle tonal changes were definitely only occurring on the K3. It is also
not a very deterministic thing. Sometimes I expect to hear the tone change
and it does not occur and other times it does.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could be short and long path at the same time.
>
> Otherwise, you could be just hearing the harmonic distortion in the audio
> circuitry. Not only is there third order stuff, which is regrettable but
> not unusual, but my K3 has second order distortion that is well... I won't
> go into that.
>
> A few days ago, I drug a passive audio filter that I used in my early EME
> days out of storage and plugged it in to the K3 and the difference was
> amazing.
>
> In those days, I preferred a 600 Hz beat note; as I've aged, I prefer a
> lower one, around 450 Hz, so I'm considering building one for the new
> frequency.
>
> Although the last thing my K3 needs is another dongle, passive filters have
> the advantage not requiring power and not (unless driven beyond belief)
> generating IMD.
>
> (Speaking of EME and long and short path, I once was pointed at the setting
> moon looking for JA or UA0 when I heard a CQ. Then I heard another CQ on a
> slightly different frequency. It took a few moments to realize it was one
> station, W5UN. I was hearing him on tropo (900 mile path) off the back of
> the antenna and via EME off the front. The difference in path length and the
> Doppler turned him into two stations.)
>
> --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I am not sure how to describe this
> > but I will do the best I can. When
> > listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone
> > frequency change
> > from the sending station. It almost sounds like some
> > other very close by
> > (within 100 Hz) station is also sending but such another
> > station does not
> > exist. I thought at first it might be a slight
> > variation due to the
> > sender's frequency control but I have ruled that out as it
> > occurs with a
> > number of different stations. I can hear this mostly
> > (or, maybe only) when
> > the signals are strong, S9 and beyond.
> >
> > Does anyone else detect this or is it just me. It is
> > not really a bother
> > now that I am used to it but it seems to occur only when
> > there is a slight
> > pause in the sending, such as break between words.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > 73, phil, K7PEH
> >
>
>
>
>

Phil Hystad-2

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-2

NR is off, AGC is Fast, and my 400 Hz 8-pole filter is engaged. My K3 is
new, serial number 3799 so it has the latest firmware as of the December
28th ship date. I have not updated firmware so far. I did do some
experimentation with AGC but not enough to come to any conclusions.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Gary Hvizdak <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Phil,
>
>
>
> It might be helpful if you were to mention your NR, AGC, and width
> settings as well as what roofing filter is engaged, and your firmware
> versions.
>
>
>
> BTW, are you able to record what you are hearing and post it online?
>
>
>
> 73,
> Gary KI4GGX
> K3 #2724
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> *Phil Hystad* <elecraft%40mailman.qth.net?Subject=Re:%20%5BElecraft%5D%20%5BK3%5D%20Subtle%20Change%20in%20CW%20monitor%20tone&In-Reply-To=%3Cf5f18e621003111044pd50d4d8t39b85e7c101c22d1%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
> *Thu Mar 11 13:44:23 EST 2010*
>
>
>
> I am not sure how to describe this but I will do the best I can. When
>
> listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency change
>
> from the sending station. It almost sounds like some other very close by
>
> (within 100 Hz) station is also sending but such another station does not
>
> exist. I thought at first it might be a slight variation due to the
>
> sender's frequency control but I have ruled that out as it occurs with a
>
> number of different stations. I can hear this mostly (or, maybe only) when
>
> the signals are strong, S9 and beyond.
>
>
>
> Does anyone else detect this or is it just me. It is not really a bother
>
> now that I am used to it but it seems to occur only when there is a slight
>
> pause in the sending, such as break between words.
>
>
>
> Comments?
>
>
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-2

I have never noticed anything similar to that Phil, but I am from the pre-phase-lock-loop era when every signal had some chirp and many signals had a lot of chirp. Now when chirp is rare, I get nostalgic when I hear an old tube rig with some. I suspect that the source of what you hear may be the drop in supply voltage between key up and key down of the transmitting station. All transceivers have some but only a few, like the K3 allow you to monitor it. My K3 drops from 13.8 to 13.2 Volts. I can not see a drop at the power supply, but there is 6 feet of #10 wire X 2 plus the power connector, the wire connection to the power connector, the stake on rings at the power supply, the connectors to the circuit breaker, the circuit breaker itself none of which have zero resistance. With 20 amps or more current. there is a bit of drop, even with a very stiff power supply. All rigs have a similar or worse voltage drop situation. That is my theory and
I am sticking to it!
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

________________________________
From: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 12:44:23 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

I am not sure how to describe this but I will do the best I can. When
listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency change
from the sending station. It almost sounds like some other very close by
(within 100 Hz) station is also sending but such another station does not
exist. I thought at first it might be a slight variation due to the
sender's frequency control but I have ruled that out as it occurs with a
number of different stations. I can hear this mostly (or, maybe only) when
the signals are strong, S9 and beyond.

Does anyone else detect this or is it just me. It is not really a bother
now that I am used to it but it seems to occur only when there is a slight
pause in the sending, such as break between words.

Comments?

73, phil, K7PEH
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Bill W4ZV

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-2

Phil Hystad-2 wrote

When listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency change
from the sending station.

I've heard the same. It's a very slight frequency shift (maybe <10 Hz) during keying that sounds like FM caused by a bad capacitor somewhere. It doesn't bother me but I've learned it's inside the K3 and not the external signal, which was my first reaction. I agree with you that it's most noticeable on strong signals.

73, BIll

Dave Hawes

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

I've heard the same thing, and while it's not a show stopper by any means, I
wish that there was something that could be done about it.

73 - Dave N3RD

On 11 Mar 2010 at 13:13, Bill W4ZV wrote:

>
>
> Phil Hystad-2 wrote:
> >
> > When listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency
> > change
> > from the sending station.
> >
>
> I've heard the same. It's a very slight frequency shift (maybe <10 Hz)
> during keying that sounds like FM caused by a bad capacitor somewhere. It
> doesn't bother me but I've learned it's inside the K3 and not the external
> signal, which was my first reaction. I agree with you that it's most
> noticeable on strong signals.
>
> 73, BIll
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-Subtle-Change-in-CW-monitor-tone-tp4717926p4718751.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Guy, K2AV

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

I've listened for it and I don't hear it. It's not going to be on
everybody's radio.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Dave Hawes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've heard the same thing, and while it's not a show stopper by any means, I
> wish that there was something that could be done about it.
>
> 73 - Dave N3RD
>
> On 11 Mar 2010 at 13:13, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Phil Hystad-2 wrote:
>> >
>> > When listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency
>> > change
>> > from the sending station.
>> >
>>
>> I've heard the same. It's a very slight frequency shift (maybe <10 Hz)
>> during keying that sounds like FM caused by a bad capacitor somewhere. It
>> doesn't bother me but I've learned it's inside the K3 and not the external
>> signal, which was my first reaction. I agree with you that it's most
>> noticeable on strong signals.
>>
>> 73, BIll
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-Subtle-Change-in-CW-monitor-tone-tp4717926p4718751.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

Steve Ellington

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

Surely Toyota had something to do with this.
Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

I've listened for it and I don't hear it. It's not going to be on
everybody's radio.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Dave Hawes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've heard the same thing, and while it's not a show stopper by any means,
> I
> wish that there was something that could be done about it.
>
> 73 - Dave N3RD
>
> On 11 Mar 2010 at 13:13, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Phil Hystad-2 wrote:
>> >
>> > When listening to a single CW station I detect a slight tone frequency
>> > change
>> > from the sending station.
>> >
>>
>> I've heard the same. It's a very slight frequency shift (maybe <10 Hz)
>> during keying that sounds like FM caused by a bad capacitor somewhere. It
>> doesn't bother me but I've learned it's inside the K3 and not the
>> external
>> signal, which was my first reaction. I agree with you that it's most
>> noticeable on strong signals.
>>
>> 73, BIll
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n2.nabble.com/K3-Subtle-Change-in-CW-monitor-tone-tp4717926p4718751.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

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Bill W4ZV

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

Guy, K2AV wrote

I've listened for it and I don't hear it. It's not going to be on
everybody's radio.

Not everyone hears subtle pitch differences equally. After listening carefully it sounds like it may be <1 Hz difference, as in the advanced stages of this test:

http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/

Listening to WWV 15 WPM code practive on 1802.5 last night, CW-L, 500 Hz, AGC-F and AFX On or Off, the dashes are slightly higher in audio pitch (i.e. lower in RF frequency) than the dots. It's easy to compare by listening to your own code in the monitor, which does not have the issue.

This is not a big deal to me...just a curiosity but it's interesting that others noticed it.

73, Bill

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

Now Bill, when did WWV start sending code practice? :-)
I think you need another cup of your morning beverage!

73,
Don W3FPR

Bill W4ZV wrote:
> Listening to WWV 15 WPM code practive on 1802.5 last night,
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Terry Posey

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

I am guessing this might be a DSP frequency decimation code bug - somehow
connected with the software AGC. A job for Lyle and Wayne it would seem. I
have not looked for the artifact and I have not noticed it on my own while
listening to TopBand DX in the noise. I will pay more attention to
listening to strong stations.

73, Terry K4RX

Guy, K2AV wrote:
>
> I've listened for it and I don't hear it. It's not going to be on
> everybody's radio.
>

Listening to WWV 15 WPM code practive on 1802.5 last night, CW-L, 500 Hz,
AGC-F and AFX On or Off, the dashes are slightly higher in audio pitch (i.e.
lower in RF frequency) than the dots. It's easy to compare by listening to
your own code in the monitor, which does not have the issue.

This is not a big deal to me...just a curiosity but it's interesting that
others noticed it.

73, Bill

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Bill W4ZV

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don Wilhelm-4 wrote

Now Bill, when did WWV start sending code practice? :-)

That was just a test to see who was awake at 5:55 AM. :-) BTW I thought the FM effect might be caused by leaving AFX Delay=5 on continuously, but the effect was the same with AFX Off and with all other AFX choices.

73, Bill

lstavenhagen

Re: [K3] Subtle Change in CW monitor tone

Cool test! I was able to go down to about .35hz consistently and then I couldn't hear the difference. 1hz tho is very noticeable to me.

Could this just be some kind of A-D/D-A resolution issue? I.e. the tuning step on the VFO's and it's sitting right on the edge and alternating due to very small amounts of drift or ?

73,
LS
W5QD