K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

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Re: KPA500 AC power

Wes Stewart-2
I run my complete station on a 120V 20A circuit.

Wes  N7WS

9-band DXCC, need two for top of the Honor Roll.



On 12/12/2018 5:13 PM, Tom Berry wrote:
> Is there any advantage to use 220 V over 110 V on the KPA500?
>
> Is it worth having an electrician come to the house and install a 220 V outlet
> for it?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom AA4VV

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Re: KPA500 AC power

Wes Stewart-2
In reply to this post by Nr4c
Why not?

On 12/12/2018 6:05 PM, Nr4c wrote:
> Lower current.
>
> But why on this thread?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>

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Re: KPA500 AC power

Macy monkeys
In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2
There you have it; DX is obviously better on 120V!  :)  

Good luck on those last two, Wes!

John K7FD

> On Dec 12, 2018, at 6:17 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I run my complete station on a 120V 20A circuit.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
> 9-band DXCC, need two for top of the Honor Roll.
>
>
>
>> On 12/12/2018 5:13 PM, Tom Berry wrote:
>> Is there any advantage to use 220 V over 110 V on the KPA500?
>>
>> Is it worth having an electrician come to the house and install a 220 V outlet for it?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom AA4VV
>
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Re: KPA500 AC power

Wes Stewart-2
Thanks John,

I doubt it in this lifetime.  I need SV/A and FR/G. I suppose I could rent a
station in New England and work the monk but that wouldn't be on my 120 VAC
circuit or from Tucson :-)

Wes  N7WS




On 12/12/2018 7:22 PM, Macy monkeys wrote:

> There you have it; DX is obviously better on 120V!  :)
>
> Good luck on those last two, Wes!
>
> John K7FD
>
>> On Dec 12, 2018, at 6:17 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I run my complete station on a 120V 20A circuit.
>>
>> Wes  N7WS
>>
>> 9-band DXCC, need two for top of the Honor Roll.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 12/12/2018 5:13 PM, Tom Berry wrote:
>>> Is there any advantage to use 220 V over 110 V on the KPA500?
>>>
>>> Is it worth having an electrician come to the house and install a 220 V outlet for it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Tom AA4VV
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: KPA500 AC power

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
On 12/12/2018 4:44 PM, Jack Brindle via Elecraft wrote:
> Noting that the current is double for 110V, the heat losses in the power line will actually be quadrupled.
>
> If you have #12 wire in your walls (the current NEC code), and use the supplied power cord, things should be just fine.

That can depend on how long the run is from the power panel to the
outlet. For CQP and 7QP expeditions, we run KPA500s on 120V, and have
had issues with under-voltage faults caused by too much IR drop combined
with regulation issues with the generator.

At home, I run my KPA500 on 240V, because I had 240 brought to the shack
before I moved in. Since the power supply is unregulated, an advantage
of running on 240V is slightly less voltage drop when the radio is keyed.

BTW, IR drop and the associated power lost in wiring feeding electronic
loads is significantly greater than predicted by Ohm's law for a sine
wave because the current drawn by power supplies is not a sine wave --
current is drawn at the peaks of each half of the AC cycle to recharge
the input filter capacitor.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: KPA500 AC power

Irwin KD3TB
In reply to this post by Tom Berry
Unless you are having a problem, save your money.  I have two KPA500’s, one
plugged into a 220V line at my main house and the other into a 110V line at
my beach house and have never seen a difference in performance. In
addition, on a number of contests Dx’peditions, were I have my K3s, KPA500
& laptop plugged into the same 110V line, I have not had a problem.
Happy Holidays
Irwin KD3TB

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 7:14 PM Tom Berry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is there any advantage to use 220 V over 110 V on the KPA500?
>
> Is it worth having an electrician come to the house and install a 220 V
> outlet for it?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom AA4VV
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
--
Irwin KD3TB
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Re: KPA500 AC power

Macy monkeys
In reply to this post by Tom Berry
I would only agree with whoever mentioned the possibility of
flickering lights. If you're a CW operator it can be a
distraction...if your house wiring can't handle it. Been there...

John K7FD

        -----------------------------------------From: "Irwin Darack"
To: "Tom Berry"
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday December 13 2018 5:14:43AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 AC power

 Unless you are having a problem, save your money. I have two
KPA500’s, one
 plugged into a 220V line at my main house and the other into a 110V
line at
 my beach house and have never seen a difference in performance. In
 addition, on a number of contests Dx’peditions, were I have my K3s,
KPA500
 & laptop plugged into the same 110V line, I have not had a problem.
 Happy Holidays
 Irwin KD3TB

 On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 7:14 PM Tom Berry  wrote:

 > Is there any advantage to use 220 V over 110 V on the KPA500?
 >
 > Is it worth having an electrician come to the house and install a
220 V
 > outlet for it?
 >
 >
 > Thanks
 >
 > Tom AA4VV
 >
 > ______________________________________________________________
 > Elecraft mailing list
 > Home: http://www.qsl.net [1]
 > Please help support this email list:  Message delivered to
[hidden email]

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Re: KPA500 AC power

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by Tom Berry
Make sure the 120v line/outlet is not getting warm.  Measure ac
voltage with amp off and then in keydown transmit to check voltage drop.

I don't have a KPA500 or KPA1500 but did have a 8877 with
4kV  PS.  It ran at 750ma  which is 3000w dc load.  That converts to
12.5A at 240v  if PS is 100% efficient.  At 120v that would run 25A
which exceeds rating or No. 12 house wiring.  I  now have a 1200w
sspa that draws 50v-50A  (2500w dc).

I installed my own 240v using 8-4 wiring bought at Home Depot.  I get
about 2vac drop when keydown at 1500w RF.  I installed a small
breaker box in the shack with one dual 20A breaker for 240v and split
out two 120v 20A ckts which run my 12v-50A station PS and a 26v MOT
repeater PS for my 220-MHz 150w PA.  I also have a 1000w 50-MHz sspa
powered by 50v-50A switching PS (2500w dc) that uses 240vac.  Only
run one QRO amp at a time.

Running the 8-4 wire from my main load center down thru crawl space
under the main floor then back up thru spare bedroom (shack) floor;
about 35-foot run.  I drilled small holes in floor joists to tie off
the cable using wire ties.  Crawl space is 4-foot high.  Obviously if
your house is on concrete slab you would need and
alternative.  Suggest running outside on house wall with conduit
(which can be pvc if cable is sheathed).

We have very lax building codes up here so home self-construction is
common.  Have a licensed electrician do the work if codes require
(for insurance coverage).

73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

Nr4c
In reply to this post by Peter W2IRT
Ok. You’re right. Must have had my mind on something else. Read too many emails.

Merry Christmas. Or you know, whatever?!!

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Dec 12, 2018, at 9:11 PM, Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This happened to me at the start of CQWW-SSB in October. My K3s is finally enroute back home after a 6 week stay in the Elecraft Repair Department with a blown FET in the HPA, cause unknown. And I know I've been told I'm not the only one to suffer this failure, and it sounds like this is now a known issue.
>
> Does anybody have an idea as to what could be causing these FETs to fail, or steps to consider to lessen the chances of it happening? I can't speak for anybody else, but I baby the heck out of my gear and was shocked to discover it failed, when feeding directly into a KPA-1500.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Regards,
> Peter Dougherty, W2IRT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:55 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated
>
> If you have another receiver, run a two-test and listen to the K3 output in a
> narrow BW.  Ideally, the two tones will be considerably stronger than the first
> pair of sidebands.
>
> I suspect they won't be, you'll have a lot more than two and you have a blown
> FET in the HPA.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
>> On 12/12/2018 12:47 PM, N4ZR wrote:
>> Transmitted on my K3 for the first time since the 10-meter contest, and it is
>> only showing 25 watts out on the built-in meter into a dummy load. Power
>> output setting of the K3 is 100W, and same results seen on all bands. What
>> could possibly be going on here?  Back to Watsonville?
>>
>> The cruel karma of it all is that *yesterday* I ordered a KPA-1500.
>>
>
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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

john@kk9a.com
In reply to this post by ke9uw
It would be nice to know what conditions caused this FET failure. Is there
an easy way to know when this failure occurs other than getting crappy
audio reports?

John KK9A


Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) wrote:


This happened to me at the start of CQWW-SSB in October. My K3s is finally
enroute back home after a 6 week stay in the Elecraft Repair Department
with a blown FET in the HPA, cause unknown. And I know I've been told I'm
not the only one to suffer this failure, and it sounds like this is now a
known issue.

Does anybody have an idea as to what could be causing these FETs to fail,
or steps to consider to lessen the chances of it happening? I can't speak
for anybody else, but I baby the heck out of my gear and was shocked to
discover it failed, when feeding directly into a KPA-1500.

----------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Peter Dougherty, W2IRT

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-bounces at
mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:55 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts
indicated

If you have another receiver, run a two-test and listen to the K3 output in a
narrow BW.  Ideally, the two tones will be considerably stronger than the
first
pair of sidebands.

I suspect they won't be, you'll have a lot more than two and you have a blown
FET in the HPA.

Wes  N7WS

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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

Peter W2IRT
That's how I discovered it. Normally I can work anybody I hear, but at the start of WW I was working one in ten that I called in S&P, and after one long, difficult exchange I was told I sounded terrible.

The day before I'd been working a Dxpedition on CW and FT8 and no problem, until I started calling on 15m FT8. The op was begging, I was running over 1300W, signals were strong and I couldn't make a Q for love or money with 'em. I chalked it up to one-way propagation but I suspect that was about the time the failure occurred. I was feeding the KPA-1500 with whatever power it needed to get about 1300-1400W out. Likewise, for CQWW, I was doing the same.

----------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Peter Dougherty, W2IRT
DXCC Card Checker/CQ-WAZ Checkpoint

www.facebook.com/W2IRT

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 2:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

It would be nice to know what conditions caused this FET failure. Is there
an easy way to know when this failure occurs other than getting crappy
audio reports?

John KK9A


Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) wrote:


This happened to me at the start of CQWW-SSB in October. My K3s is finally
enroute back home after a 6 week stay in the Elecraft Repair Department
with a blown FET in the HPA, cause unknown. And I know I've been told I'm
not the only one to suffer this failure, and it sounds like this is now a
known issue.

Does anybody have an idea as to what could be causing these FETs to fail,
or steps to consider to lessen the chances of it happening? I can't speak
for anybody else, but I baby the heck out of my gear and was shocked to
discover it failed, when feeding directly into a KPA-1500.

----------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Peter Dougherty, W2IRT

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-bounces at
mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:55 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts
indicated

If you have another receiver, run a two-test and listen to the K3 output in a
narrow BW.  Ideally, the two tones will be considerably stronger than the
first
pair of sidebands.

I suspect they won't be, you'll have a lot more than two and you have a blown
FET in the HPA.

Wes  N7WS


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Lovin' my K3S (S/N 10023)
73, Peter W2IRT
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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

Wes Stewart-2
In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com
If you see low power it's a clue.  I operate my K3S + KPA500 as a 500W
transceiver, except when I'm running IMD tests, so the last time it happened I
was notified of bad audio.

The previous times the wattmeter or IMD tests were the clues.

Wes  N7WS

On 12/13/2018 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> It would be nice to know what conditions caused this FET failure. Is there
> an easy way to know when this failure occurs other than getting crappy
> audio reports?
>
> John KK9A
>

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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com
Someone suggested performing 2 tone tests.  Seems reasonable.

I tried that with my K3S into a dummy load and an a RF sample fed to my
RSP1 receiver using HDSDR  software.   I find that it does indeed
display the IMD products from the 2 tones.  I now need to study the
results a bit more to evaluate the test.

{Oh, don't forget to set 2 TONE to OFF mode or you'll get a surprise
when you jump into that SSB rag chew group.  The comments won't be very
kind.}

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 12/13/2018 1:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> It would be nice to know what conditions caused this FET failure. Is there
> an easy way to know when this failure occurs other than getting crappy
> audio reports?
>
> John KK9A
>
>
> Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) wrote:
>
>
> This happened to me at the start of CQWW-SSB in October. My K3s is finally
> enroute back home after a 6 week stay in the Elecraft Repair Department
> with a blown FET in the HPA, cause unknown. And I know I've been told I'm
> not the only one to suffer this failure, and it sounds like this is now a
> known issue.
>
> Does anybody have an idea as to what could be causing these FETs to fail,
> or steps to consider to lessen the chances of it happening? I can't speak
> for anybody else, but I baby the heck out of my gear and was shocked to
> discover it failed, when feeding directly into a KPA-1500.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Regards,
> Peter Dougherty, W2IRT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-bounces at
> mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:55 PM
> To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts
> indicated
>
> If you have another receiver, run a two-test and listen to the K3 output in a
> narrow BW.  Ideally, the two tones will be considerably stronger than the
> first
> pair of sidebands.
>
> I suspect they won't be, you'll have a lot more than two and you have a blown
> FET in the HPA.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>


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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

Wes Stewart-2
Scroll down to the bottom of this and you will see it was me :-)

I have made hundreds of IMD measurements on both my K3 and K3S using the
built-in two-tone generator and an SDR-IQ/SpectraVue as a spectrum analyzer.  I
have a string of power attenuators followed by a step attenuator for calibration
purposes.  Within its linear range the SDR-IQ is remarkably good.  This is a
laborious process, sped up a little with the K3 utility and saved instrument
states in SpectraVue. One nice thing about this setup is that I can actually
record the spectrum display and play it back later for analysis just as if it
was live.  A guy smarter than I could probably automate this; I put the numbers
in an Excel spreadsheet and let do the charting.

What you can find doing this is that the IMD is sensitive not only to power and
voltage but to frequency.  Pick the right frequency and IMD can be -40 dBc, pick
the wrong one and it's -20 dBc; same radio, same supply voltage and output power.

Wes  N7WS




On 12/13/2018 3:50 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> Someone suggested performing 2 tone tests.  Seems reasonable.
>
> I tried that with my K3S into a dummy load and an a RF sample fed to my RSP1
> receiver using HDSDR  software.   I find that it does indeed display the IMD
> products from the 2 tones.  I now need to study the results a bit more to
> evaluate the test.
>
> {Oh, don't forget to set 2 TONE to OFF mode or you'll get a surprise when you
> jump into that SSB rag chew group.  The comments won't be very kind.}
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 12/13/2018 1:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> It would be nice to know what conditions caused this FET failure. Is there
>> an easy way to know when this failure occurs other than getting crappy
>> audio reports?
>>
>> John KK9A
>>
>>
>> Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) wrote:
>>
>>
>> This happened to me at the start of CQWW-SSB in October. My K3s is finally
>> enroute back home after a 6 week stay in the Elecraft Repair Department
>> with a blown FET in the HPA, cause unknown. And I know I've been told I'm
>> not the only one to suffer this failure, and it sounds like this is now a
>> known issue.
>>
>> Does anybody have an idea as to what could be causing these FETs to fail,
>> or steps to consider to lessen the chances of it happening? I can't speak
>> for anybody else, but I baby the heck out of my gear and was shocked to
>> discover it failed, when feeding directly into a KPA-1500.
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Regards,
>> Peter Dougherty, W2IRT
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-bounces at
>> mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:55 PM
>> To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts
>> indicated
>>
>> If you have another receiver, run a two-test and listen to the K3 output in a
>> narrow BW.  Ideally, the two tones will be considerably stronger than the
>> first
>> pair of sidebands.
>>
>> I suspect they won't be, you'll have a lot more than two and you have a blown
>> FET in the HPA.
>>
>> Wes  N7WS
>>
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>
>
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Re: KPA500 AC power

Michael Walker
In reply to this post by Edward R Cole
I have used my KPA500 on both 110 and 240AC and I can honestly say that I
saw no difference in either supply voltage.

Mike va3mw

>
>
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Re: K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

Ted Bryant
In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2
" The previous times ..." - ?

Good grief, how many times has this FET failed?

Ted W4NZ


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 3:09 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly Putting Out Only 25 watts at 100 watts indicated

If you see low power it's a clue.  I operate my K3S + KPA500 as a 500W
transceiver, except when I'm running IMD tests, so the last time it happened I
was notified of bad audio.

The previous times the wattmeter or IMD tests were the clues.

Wes  N7WS

On 12/13/2018 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> It would be nice to know what conditions caused this FET failure. Is there
> an easy way to know when this failure occurs other than getting crappy
> audio reports?
>
> John KK9A
>

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