[K3] Suggestions/Considerations speaking of digimodes functionality

[ik1bxn]

Hi you all!
I'm using my k3 in digimodes connected to a Mac Mini with XP Pro virtualized in order to execute Ham Radio Deluxe. As this pc has no rs232 interface I'm using,of course, adapter (Keyspan in my case because I heard it's one of the few OSx certified). For AF and PTT I have a Signalink Usb. I have a second 232/usb adapter just to interface IC 2820 for DSTAR. Everything works perfectly except that often booting the VM XP, COM port number assignment changes and I have to touch manually COM port number to get my radios working, even if I set 232/usb adapters to work in "geographic" mode, so with a "static" com port nr assignment.
This stated (but I feel it's relevant to many operating system not only VM), I wonder a couple of things :
1) are thinking to integrate inside k3 a native Usb port? It would mean that it would be no longer required to install on the pc a driver for 232/usb adapter, avoiding this way COM port number changing at boot.
2) are you thinking to integrate inside k3 an interface similar to Signalink ? This would fix forever problems that I had (but I read other collegues are having) such as LINE input/output signal level settings and PTT
Thanks for patience and attention !
73 de Giorgio IK1BXN

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

>> 1) are thinking to integrate inside k3 a native Usb port? It would
>> mean that it would be no longer required to install on the pc a
>> driver for 232/usb adapter, avoiding this way COM port number
>> changing at boot.

Installing a USB to serial converter in the K3 would not eliminate the
"changing COM number" issue with Windows.  If the USB converter is of
the design that contains a *serial number* the COM assignment will not
change across reboots or when the adapter is connected to a different
USB port.  If the USB to serial converter does not contain a serial
number, it will change constantly.

This is not a matter of integrating a USB port in the K3 with its
increased cost, increased chance of failure and operating system
dependencies.

>> 2) are you thinking to integrate inside k3 an interface similar to
>> Signalink? This would fix forever problems that I had (but I read
 >> other collegues are having) such as LINE input/output signal level
 >> settings and PTT

SignaLink does not resolve *any* problems that can not already resolved
by properly operating the K3.  SignaLink still requires that the K3
Line In and Line Out levels be properly adjusted for the best dynamic
range and the SignaLink PTT is nothing more than *another VOX* but
placed in the SignLink rather than in the transceiver.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/1/2011 3:32 PM, ik1bxn wrote:

>
> Hi you all!
> I'm using my k3 in digimodes connected to a Mac Mini with XP Pro virtualized
> in order to execute Ham Radio Deluxe. As this pc has no rs232 interface I'm
> using,of course, adapter (Keyspan in my case because I heard it's one of the
> few OSx certified). For AF and PTT I have a Signalink Usb. I have a second
> 232/usb adapter just to interface IC 2820 for DSTAR. Everything works
> perfectly except that often booting the VM XP, COM port number assignment
> changes and I have to touch manually COM port number to get my radios
> working, even if I set 232/usb adapters to work in "geographic" mode, so
> with a "static" com port nr assignment.
> This stated (but I feel it's relevant to many operating system not only VM),
> I wonder a couple of things :
> 1) are thinking to integrate inside k3 a native Usb port? It would mean that
> it would be no longer required to install on the pc a driver for 232/usb
> adapter, avoiding this way COM port number changing at boot.
> 2) are you thinking to integrate inside k3 an interface similar to Signalink
> ? This would fix forever problems that I had (but I read other collegues are
> having) such as LINE input/output signal level settings and PTT
> Thanks for patience and attention !
> 73 de Giorgio IK1BXN

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[ik1bxn]

Hi Joe, maybe translating from italian into english I did not explained in clear way what I mean, I'll try to clarify.
Usb : I'm not suggesting to integrate a conventional 232/Usb converter inside k3 (even if it would be possible to do by cabling all the firmware necessary to have everything onboard without OS driver need)  but re-engineer the internal I/O in order to make available a standard Usb port. For what I know, Usb is totally non related to any COM port. If you plug into your pc an external Usb device (webcam,hard disk,audio card etc) can you see any relation to a COM port ? I think you can't see. The pc  will see some Usb device and will use it according to its Usb interfacing subsystem.
Of course it's a cost I know, but even if rs232 will live for many years to come (because it's an industrial reliable standard), at home we have always Usb and seldom rs232 port. In addition (my opinion of course) having Usb interface  should be useful to give to k3 the look of a modern rig (even if we know it's a modern rig).....not an old fashion rig as extremely often I read surfing the internet....comments coming from people that evaluate a rig looking if it has a TV set inside, lot of displays many leds and so on. I think it should pay. Better would be having also an Ethernet interface !

Signalink : I spoke of that because I have it, but it's a much more general matter, anyway Signalink it's not only an additional Vox, it's a complete (and optimized for our HAM purposes) sound card that interfaces with pc via Usb. In addition it takes care of PTT by using a Vox circuit. At Signalink there are regulation for IN and OUT level and PTT delay. Using this interface the pc internal audio card is completely out of game, so you can play a DVD, listen system sound and so on when you are in PSK. Last, as  Signalink provide a total galvanic separation and in addition it converts AF levels into digital data and releases them to pc via Usb...this let you much more free from any possible RF interference.

Thans for reading, 73 de Giorgio

[Kok Chen]

On Feb 2, 2011, at 11:51 AM, ik1bxn wrote:

> Usb : I'm not suggesting to integrate a conventional 232/Usb converter inside k3...

That by the way, is what the TS-590S has done.  Not just for serial, but for audio also.

There is a single USB connector which hubs to a serial port for CAT/Firmware download and a USB Audio Class Compliant sound card.  

I heard from one DL chap who told me it worked on Mac OS X.

I haven't seen a first hand report, but the Ten-Tec Eagle apparently uses an FTDI USB port for CAT.

I just bought an RigExpert AA-230PRO antenna analyzer -- same thing; no physical RS-232 port, but a FTDI USB to Serial protocol chip.

73
Chen, W7AY

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[ik1bxn]

Sorry I forgot explaining what I think suggesting Ethernet interface :-)

1) As any recent network device (switch,router,access point and so on) I think it would be useful and maybe original having inside the rig a web engine. Having this feature you could by simply opening a web page via browser  interact with rig for touching menu setting, update firmware (why not), check log of critical data, events .... it's only a matter of developer fantasy I think....remember that inside k3 there is a big computer resource ready for use....despite to the "old fashion" rig :-) .

2) it should be possible to think to a sort of "remote desktop" for CAT and else (limit it's only fantasy) or rig remote use (it's not my case but I see somebody uses this way).

For what I saw and feel using k3  it's a sort of "open source radio", because team from Elecraft is so flexible and available that I have the feeling I can touch it by myself....(parallel with Linux). Other rigs are a black box "as is" and until the rig is "young" efforts are oriented to fix bugs...later ... sorry it's an old rig , no longer under maintenance or better attention.....(parallel with other operating systems).

One more time 73 to all ! Giorgio

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

>> Usb : I'm not suggesting to integrate a conventional 232/Usb
>> converter inside k3 (even if it would be possible to do by cabling
>> all the firmware necessary to have everything onboard without OS
>> driver need) but re-engineer the internal I/O in order to make
>> available a standardUsb port.

Every device with a USB port includes some kind of USB to serial
converter.  It may be integrated into a larger chip but there is
always dedicated hardware to perform the serial to USB (data
packetization and protocol management) function.  Even those other
transceivers (TS-590, Eagle, IC-9100, 7600, 7200, 7410, etc.) with
onboard USB use a traditional USB to serial converter.

>> For what I know, Usb is totally non related to any COM port. If you
>> plug into your pc an external Usb device (webcam,hard disk,audio
>> card etc) can you see any relation to a COM port ? I think you
>> can't see.

USB devices like those use cite use "device classes" built into the
operating system.  If you do the research you will find that a
camera operates as a "data storage device" (like a USB hard disk),
an audio card operates as a "USB audio class device," a webcam
operates as a "Human Interface Device."  There is no "class" defined
for "amateur radio transceivers."

In order to support an amateur transceiver in native mode, each
transceiver manufacturer would need to write *CUSTOM* HDI drivers
for *EVERY OPERATING SYSTEM* and would be forced to absorb the
cost of testing/verification of those drivers for every incremental
update of every operating system.  In addition, logging and control
software writers would then need to write custom applications for
every transceiver (no more "common serial interface").

It may be economically feasible for the manufacturer of a computer
mouse or keyboard to write/maintain HID drivers for their product
when the cost is spread over several million units a year but it
does not make sense for Elecraft when they sell fewer than 5000
K3s in a year.

>> Signalink : I spoke of that because I have it, but it's a much more
>> general matter, anyway Signalink it's not only an additional Vox,
>> it's a complete (and optimized for our HAM purposes) sound card
>> that interfaces with pc via Usb.

No, Signalink is nothing more than a $19 USB audio chip packaged with
manual input/output level controls and a "VOX."  It takes about two
minutes to study the circuit board and check the part numbers to know
for sure what it happening with that device.

The same functions can be integrated into a transceiver with any
of the commodity USB Audio chips just as Icom and Kenwood have done
with their newest transceivers.  However, there is no "value added"
in doing so as it makes the transceiver dependent on the operating
system for software support.  Any change or bug in the operating
system can leave that portion of the transceiver non-functional.

>> Last, as Signalink provide a total galvanic separation and in
>> addition itconverts AF levels into digital data and releases
 >> them to pc via Usb...this let you much more free from any
 >> possible RF interference.

As K9YC is very fond of pointing out, RF interference is not a matter
of "galvanic isolation."  It is a matter to properly bonding devices
together and to a proper RF ground as well as preventing common mode
RF and noise from propagating to the device.  When properly designed
and installed, transceivers and computers will not have an RF problem.
It is the sloppy practices of computer designers and amateurs in their
antenna and power system installations that are generally at fault for
99% or more of all "RF interference" problems.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/2/2011 2:51 PM, ik1bxn wrote:

>
> Hi Joe, maybe translating from italian into english I did not explained in
> clear way what I mean, I'll try to clarify.
> Usb : I'm not suggesting to integrate a conventional 232/Usb converter
> inside k3 (even if it would be possible to do by cabling all the firmware
> necessary to have everything onboard without OS driver need)  but
> re-engineer the internal I/O in order to make available a standard Usb port.
> For what I know, Usb is totally non related to any COM port. If you plug
> into your pc an external Usb device (webcam,hard disk,audio card etc) can
> you see any relation to a COM port ? I think you can't see. The pc  will see
> some Usb device and will use it according to its Usb interfacing subsystem.
> Of course it's a cost I know, but even if rs232 will live for many years to
> come (because it's an industrial reliable standard), at home we have always
> Usb and seldom rs232 port. In addition (my opinion of course) having Usb
> interface  should be useful to give to k3 the look of a modern rig (even if
> we know it's a modern rig).....not an old fashion rig as extremely often I
> read surfing the internet....comments coming from people that evaluate a rig
> looking if it has a TV set inside, lot of displays many leds and so on. I
> think it should pay. Better would be having also an Ethernet interface !
>
> Signalink : I spoke of that because I have it, but it's a much more general
> matter, anyway Signalink it's not only an additional Vox, it's a complete
> (and optimized for our HAM purposes) sound card that interfaces with pc via
> Usb. In addition it takes care of PTT by using a Vox circuit. At Signalink
> there are regulation for IN and OUT level and PTT delay. Using this
> interface the pc internal audio card is completely out of game, so you can
> play a DVD, listen system sound and so on when you are in PSK. Last, as
> Signalink provide a total galvanic separation and in addition it converts AF
> levels into digital data and releases them to pc via Usb...this let you much
> more free from any possible RF interference.
>
> Thans for reading, 73 de Giorgio

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[ik1bxn]

Thank you Joe for clear analysis and explanation

73

Giorgio