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K3 TXCO

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K3 TXCO

Those who ordered their K3 with this option on their list would have noticed the calibration procedure and noted it does not work.

>From a customers perspective, if you buy an item in the belief that it will do what the advertising states it will....then it is reasonable for the customer to demand (politely) that the manufacturer make it happen.

Moving the goal posts is NOT good customer relations action to address an issue customers (granted, not all) are raising.

The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer needs to make good on the promises made.

This discussion could go on for ever being that their are many who don't care and there are many of us that do.

73's
Gary
Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 TXCO

> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> needs to make good on the promises made.

What is the heartburn? The K3 with the TCXO already has better
stability than was promised. It seems that Elecraft have made
good on their promises without the need for the additional
calibration step.

When a product is specified to a particular level of performance
and meets that level of performance, there is no guarantee that
a particular method will be used to achieve the performance level.

> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> many who don't care and there are many of us that do.

This whole issue should go away ... you have the stability you
paid for.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:10 PM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
>
>
> Those who ordered their K3 with this option on their list
> would have noticed the calibration procedure and noted it
> does not work.
>
> >From a customers perspective, if you buy an item in the
> belief that it
> >will do what the advertising states it will....then it is reasonable
> >for the customer to demand (politely) that the manufacturer make it
> >happen.
>
> Moving the goal posts is NOT good customer relations action
> to address an issue customers (granted, not all) are raising.
>
> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> needs to make good on the promises made.
>
> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> many who don't care and there are many of us that do.
>
> 73's
> Gary
> Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Johnny Siu

Re： K3 TXCO

Hello Joe,

Fine, correct, you are right. Then I should now have the liberty to return my TXCO to Elecraft and ask for a refund because all I needed is the advertised stability and nothing extra.

It is nothing wrong with Gary who has his point because he was not given the chance to make his choice.

73

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人﹕ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
收件人 [hidden email]; Elecraft <[hidden email]>
傳送日期﹕ 一, 10月 26, 2009 7:51:52 AM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO

> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> needs to make good on the promises made.

What is the heartburn? The K3 with the TCXO already has better
stability than was promised. It seems that Elecraft have made
good on their promises without the need for the additional
calibration step.

When a product is specified to a particular level of performance
and meets that level of performance, there is no guarantee that
a particular method will be used to achieve the performance level.

> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> many who don't care and there are many of us that do..

This whole issue should go away ... you have the stability you
paid for.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:10 PM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
>
>
> Those who ordered their K3 with this option on their list
> would have noticed the calibration procedure and noted it
> does not work.
>
> >From a customers perspective, if you buy an item in the
> belief that it
> >will do what the advertising states it will.....then it is reasonable
> >for the customer to demand (politely) that the manufacturer make it
> >happen.
>
> Moving the goal posts is NOT good customer relations action
> to address an issue customers (granted, not all) are raising.
>
> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> needs to make good on the promises made.
>
> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> many who don't care and there are many of us that do.
>
> 73's
> Gary
> Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra

Greg - AB7R

Re: K3 TXCO

I think what Joe was saying is that the optional TCXO-3 already meets the advertised specs for the TCXO-3 WITHOUT the software compensation.

73
Greg
AB7R

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Johnny Siu
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 6:10 PM
To: [hidden email]; Elecraft
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 TXCO

Hello Joe,

Fine, correct, you are right. Then I should now have the liberty to return my TXCO to Elecraft and ask for a refund because all I needed is the advertised stability and nothing extra.

It is nothing wrong with Gary who has his point because he was not given the chance to make his choice.

73

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人﹕ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
收件人 [hidden email]; Elecraft <[hidden email]>
傳送日期﹕ 一, 10月 26, 2009 7:51:52 AM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO

> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> needs to make good on the promises made.

What is the heartburn? The K3 with the TCXO already has better
stability than was promised. It seems that Elecraft have made
good on their promises without the need for the additional
calibration step.

When a product is specified to a particular level of performance
and meets that level of performance, there is no guarantee that
a particular method will be used to achieve the performance level.

> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> many who don't care and there are many of us that do..

This whole issue should go away ... you have the stability you
paid for.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:10 PM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
>
>
> Those who ordered their K3 with this option on their list
> would have noticed the calibration procedure and noted it
> does not work.
>
> >From a customers perspective, if you buy an item in the
> belief that it
> >will do what the advertising states it will.....then it is reasonable
> >for the customer to demand (politely) that the manufacturer make it
> >happen.
>
> Moving the goal posts is NOT good customer relations action
> to address an issue customers (granted, not all) are raising.
>
> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> needs to make good on the promises made.
>
> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> many who don't care and there are many of us that do.
>
> 73's
> Gary
> Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra

Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多!
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Grant Youngman

Re: K3 TXCO

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Why not just let Elecraft speak to the point. (I think they already
did earlier today).

This isn't an opinion poll.

Grant/NQ5T

On Oct 25, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>
>> The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
>> needs to make good on the promises made.
>
> What is the heartburn? The K3 with the TCXO already has better
> stability than was promised. It seems that Elecraft have made
> good on their promises without the need for the additional
> calibration step.
>
> When a product is specified to a particular level of performance
> and meets that level of performance, there is no guarantee that
> a particular method will be used to achieve the performance level.
>
>> This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
>> many who don't care and there are many of us that do.
>
> This whole issue should go away ... you have the stability you
> paid for.
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 TXCO

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

> Fine, correct, you are right. Then I should now have the
> liberty to return my TXCO to Elecraft and ask for a refund
> because all I needed is the advertised stability and nothing
> extra.

Except without the TCXO-3 you would not achieve the advertised
stability. In this case the TCXO-3 provides the specified
stability without the need for additional control. By that
standard the constant calls for implementation of "calibration
3" are simply trying to get something (even better stability)
for nothing. If Wayne wants to make that available, that's
up to him but he should not be required to do so - or do so
in advance of, or to the exclusion of, other priorities.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnny Siu [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 9:10 PM
> To: [hidden email]; Elecraft
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
>
>
> Hello Joe,
>
> Fine, correct, you are right. Then I should now have the
> liberty to return my TXCO to Elecraft and ask for a refund
> because all I needed is the advertised stability and nothing extra.
>
> It is nothing wrong with Gary who has his point because he
> was not given the chance to make his choice.
>
> 73
>
> Johnny VR2XMC
>
>
>
>
>
> 寄件人﹕ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> 收件人 [hidden email]; Elecraft <[hidden email]>
> 傳送日期﹕ 一, 10月 26, 2009 7:51:52 AM
> 主題： Re: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
>
>
>
> > The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer needs
> > to make good on the promises made.
>
> What is the heartburn? The K3 with the TCXO already has better
> stability than was promised. It seems that Elecraft have made
> good on their promises without the need for the additional
> calibration step.
>
> When a product is specified to a particular level of performance
> and meets that level of performance, there is no guarantee that
> a particular method will be used to achieve the performance level.
>
> > This discussion could go on for ever being that their are many who
> > don't care and there are many of us that do.
>
> This whole issue should go away ... you have the stability you
> paid for.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> > [hidden email]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:10 PM
> > To: Elecraft
> > Subject: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
> >
> >
> > Those who ordered their K3 with this option on their list would have
> > noticed the calibration procedure and noted it does not work.
> >
> > >From a customers perspective, if you buy an item in the
> > belief that it
> > >will do what the advertising states it will....then it is
> reasonable
> > >for the customer to demand (politely) that the
> manufacturer make it
> > >happen.
> >
> > Moving the goal posts is NOT good customer relations action to
> > address an issue customers (granted, not all) are raising.
> >
> > The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer needs
> > to make good on the promises made.
> >
> > This discussion could go on for ever being that their are many who
> > don't care and there are many of us that do.
> >
> > 73's
> > Gary
> > Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客!了解更多
>

N5GE

Re: Re? K3 TXCO

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:09:56 +0800 (HKT), Johnny Siu
<[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]

I think you and Gary missed the point, Johnny. The optional TCXO was
advertised to provide a certain better accuracy with software aid, but
as it turns out, the optional TCXO, doesn't need the firmware upgrade
to provide the advertised accuracy made possible by the firmware
upgrade.

If it makes you happier, you should ask Elecraft to let you return it,
but the point you and Gary don't seem to understand is that after you
remove that optional TCXO from your K3 you won't enjoy the accuracy
you are seeing now.

I bought one of the TCXO's. I'm pleased with the accuracy it has
added to my K3. If Elecraft should provide the firmware to
additionally improve my K3's accuracy, I will install it and enjoy the
results. Until then I will enjoy my hobby, ham radio, while using my
K3's to that end and not wasting my time measuring accuracy, features,
readout layouts and a host of other things I hear others complaining
about. I really don't know how they find time to use their rigs.

When I got my first K3 I was a bit overwhelmed by it's functionality,
but over time, by using it I began to really appreciate what I had,
enough to acquire another one when the opportunity arose.

73,

Tom, N5GE

[hidden email]
K3 #806, K3 #1055, PR6,
XV144, XV432, KRC2,
W1 and other small kits.

2 W2's on order
1 K144XV on order

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net

______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Johnny Siu

Re： Re? K3 TXCO

Hello Tom,

I have no plan to return the TXCO. From your signature, I understand that you are an user of XV432. How is the performance of XV432 in terms of frequency and power output stability? Is it in par with the XV144? There is only one product review of XV432 in www.eham.net

73

Johnny VR2XMC

K3, K2s, XV144, XV50, W1......

________________________________
寄件人﹕ Radio Amateur N5GE <[hidden email]>
收件人 Elecraft <[hidden email]>
傳送日期﹕ 一, 10月 26, 2009 12:33:03 PM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] Re? K3 TXCO

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:09:56 +0800 (HKT), Johnny Siu
<[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]

I think you and Gary missed the point, Johnny. The optional TCXO was
advertised to provide a certain better accuracy with software aid, but
as it turns out, the optional TCXO, doesn't need the firmware upgrade
to provide the advertised accuracy made possible by the firmware
upgrade.

If it makes you happier, you should ask Elecraft to let you return it,
but the point you and Gary don't seem to understand is that after you
remove that optional TCXO from your K3 you won't enjoy the accuracy
you are seeing now.

I bought one of the TCXO's. I'm pleased with the accuracy it has
added to my K3. If Elecraft should provide the firmware to
additionally improve my K3's accuracy, I will install it and enjoy the
results. Until then I will enjoy my hobby, ham radio, while using my
K3's to that end and not wasting my time measuring accuracy, features,
readout layouts and a host of other things I hear others complaining
about. I really don't know how they find time to use their rigs.

When I got my first K3 I was a bit overwhelmed by it's functionality,
but over time, by using it I began to really appreciate what I had,
enough to acquire another one when the opportunity arose.

73,

Tom, N5GE

[hidden email]
K3 #806, K3 #1055, PR6,
XV144, XV432, KRC2,
W1 and other small kits.

2 W2's on order
1 K144XV on order

Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多!
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Brett Howard

Re: Re： K3 TXCO

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

No because the TCXO you bought is what provides you with the higher
accuracy. Its just that additional firmware correction isn't needed to
meet 0.5PPM because the TCXO is that good out of the box.

~BTH

On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 09:09 +0800, Johnny Siu wrote:

> Hello Joe,
>
> Fine, correct, you are right. Then I should now have the liberty to return my TXCO to Elecraft and ask for a refund because all I needed is the advertised stability and nothing extra.
>
> It is nothing wrong with Gary who has his point because he was not given the chance to make his choice.
>
> 73
>
> Johnny VR2XMC
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> 寄件人﹕ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> 收件人 [hidden email]; Elecraft <[hidden email]>
> 傳送日期﹕ 一, 10月 26, 2009 7:51:52 AM
> 主題： Re: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
>
>
>
> > The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> > needs to make good on the promises made.
>
> What is the heartburn? The K3 with the TCXO already has better
> stability than was promised. It seems that Elecraft have made
> good on their promises without the need for the additional
> calibration step.
>
> When a product is specified to a particular level of performance
> and meets that level of performance, there is no guarantee that
> a particular method will be used to achieve the performance level.
>
> > This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> > many who don't care and there are many of us that do..
>
> This whole issue should go away ... you have the stability you
> paid for.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> > [hidden email]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:10 PM
> > To: Elecraft
> > Subject: [Elecraft] K3 TXCO
> >
> >
> > Those who ordered their K3 with this option on their list
> > would have noticed the calibration procedure and noted it
> > does not work.
> >
> > >From a customers perspective, if you buy an item in the
> > belief that it
> > >will do what the advertising states it will.....then it is reasonable
> > >for the customer to demand (politely) that the manufacturer make it
> > >happen.
> >
> > Moving the goal posts is NOT good customer relations action
> > to address an issue customers (granted, not all) are raising.
> >
> > The customer has purchased in good faith and the manufacturer
> > needs to make good on the promises made.
> >
> > This discussion could go on for ever being that their are
> > many who don't care and there are many of us that do.
> >
> > 73's
> > Gary
> > Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra
>
>
>
> Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多!
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Re? K3 TXCO

In reply to this post by N5GE

I see that we are mixing terms in this thread. *Stability* and
*Accuracy* are two different things, and one does not imply the other.
Those expecting better *accuracy* with the addition of software
compensation may be dissapointed (read on for more info).

The high stability TCXO will not necessarily provide better *accuracy*
than the standard TCXO, and method 3 will also not necessarily provide
better accuracy. Method 3 will only provide tighter control over
temperature excursions.

Accuracy is the ability to hit the target in the center of the
bullseye. Method 2 will provide accuracy just as close as Method 3, but
Method 2 lacks the temperature compensation part.

Stability is the ability to hit the target at the *same* place all the
time - even though that may be far from the bullseye. And that is the
part that will be improved with the software temperature compensation.

What the high stability TCXO offers is *stability* over a temperature
range. If your K3 is never subjected to great temperature excursions,
there may be little or no difference between the 2 Elecraft TCXO
offerings (yes, both are TCXOs, but one is spec'ed at 1% while the other
is spec'ed at 5% by the TCXO manufacturer). The 1% spec'ed TCXO was to
provide an overall 0.5% stability over temperature for the entire K3.

The high stability TCXO already provides the K3 with its advertised 0.5%
stability, so what Wayne and Eric envisioned as needing software
compensation to provide the 0.5% stability 'does the deed' even without
that compensation. But Wayne has stepped up to the plate and offered a
software compensated stability of up to twice the specified value - so
just wait a while. You have all that was advertised already, but it
will get better than that if one is patient.

73,
Don W3FPR

Radio Amateur N5GE wrote:
> I think you and Gary missed the point, Johnny. The optional TCXO was
> advertised to provide a certain better accuracy with software aid, but
> as it turns out, the optional TCXO, doesn't need the firmware upgrade
> to provide the advertised accuracy made possible by the firmware
> upgrade.
>
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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N5GE

Re: Re? K3 TXCO

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:27:48 -0400, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>I see that we are mixing terms in this thread. *Stability* and
>*Accuracy* are two different things, and one does not imply the other.
>Those expecting better *accuracy* with the addition of software
>compensation may be dissapointed (read on for more info).
>
[snip]

Thanks for the correction, Don.

Please replace the word "accuracy" with "stability" in my previous
post on this subject.

Tom, N5GE

[hidden email]
K3 #806, K3 #1055, PR6,
XV144, XV432, KRC2,
W1 and other small kits.

2 W2's on order
1 K144XV on order

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Mike Harris

TXCO

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

G'day,

Don beat me to this. However, I would like to add that the
calibration of the TXCO is not a one off event. When I checked the
calibration after a years worth of burn in I had to adjust the TXCO
lf by about 50Hz. How much this translates into a dial error I've
no idea, I've not bothered checking the frequency plan.

At an Intelsat Std B. Earth station I used to drive we had to keep
our TX carriers better than 100Hz at 6GHz. The double ovened
reference oscillators used to phase lock the SHF oscillators for the
up-converters needed a trim up once a month.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re? K3 TXCO

>I see that we are mixing terms in this thread. *Stability* and
> *Accuracy* are two different things, and one does not imply the
> other.
> Those expecting better *accuracy* with the addition of software
> compensation may be dissapointed (read on for more info).
>
> The high stability TCXO will not necessarily provide better
> *accuracy*
> than the standard TCXO, and method 3 will also not necessarily
> provide
> better accuracy. Method 3 will only provide tighter control over
> temperature excursions.
>
> Accuracy is the ability to hit the target in the center of the
> bullseye. Method 2 will provide accuracy just as close as Method
> 3, but
> Method 2 lacks the temperature compensation part.
>
> Stability is the ability to hit the target at the *same* place all
> the
> time - even though that may be far from the bullseye. And that is
> the
> part that will be improved with the software temperature
> compensation.
>
> What the high stability TCXO offers is *stability* over a
> temperature
> range. If your K3 is never subjected to great temperature
> excursions,
> there may be little or no difference between the 2 Elecraft TCXO
> offerings (yes, both are TCXOs, but one is spec'ed at 1% while the
> other
> is spec'ed at 5% by the TCXO manufacturer). The 1% spec'ed TCXO
> was to
> provide an overall 0.5% stability over temperature for the entire
> K3.
>
> The high stability TCXO already provides the K3 with its
> advertised 0.5%
> stability, so what Wayne and Eric envisioned as needing software
> compensation to provide the 0.5% stability 'does the deed' even
> without
> that compensation. But Wayne has stepped up to the plate and
> offered a
> software compensated stability of up to twice the specified
> value - so
> just wait a while. You have all that was advertised already, but
> it
> will get better than that if one is patient.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR