K3 Undo/Back Button..?

[Dick Dickinson]

I wonder if the K3 knows it's own state at a given moment and can (could be
programmed to) remember it after a change of state.  Is it possible to
create a stack with the last 8/16/32 changes to the state of the K3?    

If so, a Button function for Undo/Back/Go Back could be useful.

TAP to Undo the last [Frequency Change/Band Change/Mode Change/Setting,
etc.].  ...another TAP to Undo the previous change, etc.  ...HOLD to redo.


Best regards,

Dick - KA5KKT

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[n7ws]

Boy, that's a good idea, even if it's only one step back.

Wes  N7WS

--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Edward Dickinson, III <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Edward Dickinson, III <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Undo/Back Button..?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:17 PM

I wonder if the K3 knows it's own state at a given moment and can (could be
programmed to) remember it after a change of state.  Is it possible to
create a stack with the last 8/16/32 changes to the state of the K3?   

If so, a Button function for Undo/Back/Go Back could be useful.

TAP to Undo the last [Frequency Change/Band Change/Mode Change/Setting,
etc.].  ...another TAP to Undo the previous change, etc.  ...HOLD to redo.


Best regards,

Dick - KA5KKT

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[Rick Braun]

Seems an easy thing to do with programs like HRD etc.  
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Wes Stewart<mailto:[hidden email]>
  To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> ; IIIEdward Dickinson<mailto:[hidden email]>
  Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 6:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Undo/Back Button..?


  Boy, that's a good idea, even if it's only one step back.

  Wes N7WS

  --- On Sat, 10/24/09, Edward Dickinson, III <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

  From: Edward Dickinson, III <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
  Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Undo/Back Button..?
  To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
  Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:17 PM

  I wonder if the K3 knows it's own state at a given moment and can (could be
  programmed to) remember it after a change of state. Is it possible to
  create a stack with the last 8/16/32 changes to the state of the K3?

  If so, a Button function for Undo/Back/Go Back could be useful.

  TAP to Undo the last [Frequency Change/Band Change/Mode Change/Setting,
  etc.]. ...another TAP to Undo the previous change, etc. ...HOLD to redo.


  Best regards,

  Dick - KA5KKT

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[Richard Davis-5]

While the idea of 'UNDO' seems simple, it is often significantly
complex.  The nature of predominant thinking in programming is linear,
and moreover, one directional, i. e., programs start and go forward.

Try thinking about the everyday problem of following driving directions
to a that new place you have never before visited.  You have the
instructions of the person who knows the route well.  Start at A, go to
B, turn left, go to C, turn right, go 2 miles, turn left, .... etc.

Now in the midst of following those very explicit instructions you
become suspicious that you are no longer on the directed path.  So, just
'undo' your recent driving, or go back to your original starting
location..... yeah, right, it is really simple.  NOT!

The APPLE Macintosh programming culture rigorously keeps an 'UNDO'
capability for programs as a matter of corporate policy.  To provide
this 'UNDO' feature, it is said by Mac pro's that this often consumes
about half of the programming effort of Macintosh applications.

...and, this high cost of 'UNDO' is experienced when the work starts out
from the beginning with the commitment to support the 'UNDO' feature!

In the driving example, most people begin the journey with the belief
that an 'UNDO' action will be entirely unnecessary.  ...think about it.

This is not a trivial problem.  It is not even a simple problem.
...and, the importance of solving this problem is often not appreciated
until we are in the midst of needing the solution.  ...which is, of
course, often too late.

richard,

K5BWV

P. S.

I once received a monthly statement from Sears for over $2000 involving
a purchase of a $5 item.  How that came to be is another story.

When Sears was asked to correct that erroneous transaction, I was
compelled by their staff to return to the original point of sale at a
time when the specific clerk who performed the original sale was
present.  That clerk had to enter a new point of sale transaction for an
offsetting amount to clear the charge.

No 'UNDO' was built into the Sears retail credit charge system!

P. P. S.

When the Apollo 13 journey to the Moon suffered a catastrophic power
failure, recall that there was not any 'UNDO' capability present in that
system.

Imagine how costly and complex that 'UNDO' feature would have been.
...perhaps, even impossible.

.....................

Rick Braun wrote:

> Seems an easy thing to do with programs like HRD etc.  
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Wes Stewart<mailto:[hidden email]>
>   To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> ; IIIEdward Dickinson<mailto:[hidden email]>
>   Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 6:20 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Undo/Back Button..?
>
>
>   Boy, that's a good idea, even if it's only one step back.
>
>   Wes N7WS
>

..
...
....
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[n7ws]

You sound like you know a lot more about this than I do. While that may be, allow me one further query.

If I turn off my K3 and then turn it back on, it seems to come back to the exact state it was in before turning it off.  Maybe I've looked at this too simply and my observation is incorrect---entirely possible*---but if I'm not wrong, then isn't there some "memory" of the last state that is easily recoverable?

*I'm on a trip, and while I have my K3 with me, I'm not currently able to test my recollection.

Since I am on a trip and you mention driving, let me say that when I rely on Garmin's abysmal auto-routing function I'm often making "errors" and am always "suspicious" of the projected route.  (This is tons of fun in strange territory while towing 7,000 pounds of trailer at 60 mph.)  That said, the Garmin keeps a semi-continous record of time, latitude, longitude and elevation and if I need to "back up" I have the data.

Regards,

Wes  N7WS/4



--- On Sun, 10/25/09, Richard Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

While the idea of 'UNDO' seems simple, it is often significantly complex.  The nature of predominant thinking in programming is linear, and moreover, one directional, i. e., programs start and go forward.

Try thinking about the everyday problem of following driving directions to a that new place you have never before visited.  You have the instructions of the person who knows the route well.  Start at A, go to B, turn left, go to C, turn right, go 2 miles, turn left, .... etc.

Now in the midst of following those very explicit instructions you become suspicious that you are no longer on the directed path.  So, just 'undo' your recent driving, or go back to your original starting location..... yeah, right, it is really simple.  NOT!

The APPLE Macintosh programming culture rigorously keeps an 'UNDO' capability for programs as a matter of corporate policy.  To provide this 'UNDO' feature, it is said by Mac pro's that this often consumes about half of the programming effort of Macintosh applications.

...and, this high cost of 'UNDO' is experienced when the work starts out from the beginning with the commitment to support the 'UNDO' feature!

In the driving example, most people begin the journey with the belief that an 'UNDO' action will be entirely unnecessary.  ...think about it.

This is not a trivial problem.  It is not even a simple problem. ...and, the importance of solving this problem is often not appreciated until we are in the midst of needing the solution.  ...which is, of course, often too late.

richard,

K5BWV




     
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Wes Stewart wrote

You sound like you know a lot more about this than I do. While that may be, allow me one further query.

If I turn off my K3 and then turn it back on, it seems to come back to the exact state it was in before turning it off.  Maybe I've looked at this too simply and my observation is incorrect---entirely possible*---but if I'm not wrong, then isn't there some "memory" of the last state that is easily recoverable?

Yes, of course, but that functionality is essentially built in to the kind of memory the K3 MCU uses - it's not volatile memory like in a PC, so it retains data even when power is off. No special programming effort is needed to get this functionality.

A snapshot of the entire state of the radio would be fairly easy to do, but takes a lot of memory each time you do one. To provide an "undo" facility would require, essentially, a journal or audit trail of every change. Not only would that require extra memory it would also require extra program code at every point in the firmware where a change is possible.

Richard is exactly right. This is a very complex task. Whilst it is possible on a PC or a Mac which has almost unlimited memory, it would probably be completely impractical given the much more limited power and storage capacity of a MCU. And given the choice between that and more operational functionality, I'd guess most users would opt for the latter.