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[K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

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Rick Miller - N1RM

[K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

I currently live in a townhouse and have made an offer on a few acres in a more rural area. I would like to measure the relative noise levels between the two locations to reduce the probability of surprises or disappointments should I close the deal. I have gotten access to a very good battery powered spectrum analyzer and plan to use a tripod-mounted 6 foot whip and a 20 dB LNA to measure the noise levels at each location.

While setting this up, I though it would be interesting to try to also use the K3 to measure noise with the same antenna (but without the LNA). I've written a Python script to control the K3 as it steps through each band and records S meter levels.

I'm looking for recommendations on K3 settings for this purpose. Specific questions I have are:

1. Is the high resolution S meter command (SMH) the best way to measure received signal strength with a computer?

2. What settings for attenuator, pre-amp, and AGC will give me the most useful readings? Right now I'm using Off, On, and Off respectively for those settings.

3. What Mode and Bandwidth settings should I use? Right now I'm using CW and 200 Hz. I'm pretty sure I should be using a wider bandwidth and will try that tonight.

4. Is this a dumb idea?

My first run through very late last night showed almost no variation across any of the bands. I did see differences between bands. Right now I pause for 1 second after setting band, mode, and bandwidth, and then another second after each frequency change (stepping in 10 KHz increments) for things to settle.
I don't know the dynamics of the S-meter processing, so maybe I should be waiting longer.

Thanks for reading this.

Rick
N1RM

Dave Sublette

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Don’t forget to look for noise in vertical and horizontal polarity.

Dave,

K4TO

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 9:33 AM, Rick Miller - N1RM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I currently live in a townhouse and have made an offer on a few acres in a
> more rural area. I would like to measure the relative noise levels between
> the two locations to reduce the probability of surprises or disappointments
> should I close the deal. I have gotten access to a very good battery
> powered spectrum analyzer and plan to use a tripod-mounted 6 foot whip and a
> 20 dB LNA to measure the noise levels at each location.
>
> While setting this up, I though it would be interesting to try to also use
> the K3 to measure noise with the same antenna (but without the LNA). I've
> written a Python script to control the K3 as it steps through each band and
> records S meter levels.
>
> I'm looking for recommendations on K3 settings for this purpose. Specific
> questions I have are:
>
> 1. Is the high resolution S meter command (SMH) the best way to measure
> received signal strength with a computer?
>
> 2. What settings for attenuator, pre-amp, and AGC will give me the most
> useful readings? Right now I'm using Off, On, and Off respectively for those
> settings.
>
> 3. What Mode and Bandwidth settings should I use? Right now I'm using CW
> and 200 Hz. I'm pretty sure I should be using a wider bandwidth and will
> try that tonight.
>
> 4. Is this a dumb idea?
>
> My first run through very late last night showed almost no variation across
> any of the bands. I did see differences between bands. Right now I pause
> for 1 second after setting band, mode, and bandwidth, and then another
> second after each frequency change (stepping in 10 KHz increments) for
> things to settle.
> I don't know the dynamics of the S-meter processing, so maybe I should be
> waiting longer.
>
> Thanks for reading this.
>
> Rick
> N1RM
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Using-K3-for-relative-noise-survey-tp7632955.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Dave,

You can use the Alternate VFO B display of AFV to give better resolution
than the S-meter. See page 36 of the K3 manual. You must have the
CONFIG: TECH MODE turned on to show the AFV entry.

If you want to see the difference between two values, there is also the
DBV alternate VFO B display which will show the difference in dB between
2 noise or signal settings.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/1/2017 10:17 AM, Dave Sublette wrote:

>>
>> I currently live in a townhouse and have made an offer on a few acres in a
>> more rural area. I would like to measure the relative noise levels between
>> the two locations to reduce the probability of surprises or disappointments
>> should I close the deal. I have gotten access to a very good battery
>> powered spectrum analyzer and plan to use a tripod-mounted 6 foot whip and a
>> 20 dB LNA to measure the noise levels at each location.
>>
>> While setting this up, I though it would be interesting to try to also use
>> the K3 to measure noise with the same antenna (but without the LNA). I've
>> written a Python script to control the K3 as it steps through each band and
>> records S meter levels.
>>
>> I'm looking for recommendations on K3 settings for this purpose. Specific
>> questions I have are:

NK7Z

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

In reply to this post by Rick Miller - N1RM

On 08/01/2017 06:33 AM, Rick Miller - N1RM wrote:

> I currently live in a townhouse and have made an offer on a few acres in a
> more rural area. I would like to measure the relative noise levels between
> the two locations to reduce the probability of surprises or disappointments
> should I close the deal. I have gotten access to a very good battery
> powered spectrum analyzer and plan to use a tripod-mounted 6 foot whip and a
> 20 dB LNA to measure the noise levels at each location.
>
> While setting this up, I though it would be interesting to try to also use
> the K3 to measure noise with the same antenna (but without the LNA). I've
> written a Python script to control the K3 as it steps through each band and
> records S meter levels.

Might I suggest this:

http://nk7z.net/sdr-rfi-survey-p1/

blog entry. It is a way of using a cheap SDR to get an overview of your
RFI environment, and a way of being able to compare two environments.

We are going to move soon, and I wanted a way to do exactly what you
described here. I wanted a way to characterize the RFI on an entire ham
band at once, and this fills the bill well.

> My first run through very late last night showed almost no variation across
> any of the bands. I did see differences between bands. Right now I pause
> for 1 second after setting band, mode, and bandwidth, and then another
> second after each frequency change (stepping in 10 KHz increments) for
> things to settle.
> I don't know the dynamics of the S-meter processing, so maybe I should be
> waiting longer.

I believe you need to be looking at a wider bandwidth than the K3 will
provide, hence the the use of an SDR in the above suggested read. It
takes a few days to create the spectrograms, but they will show you
EXACTLY what is happening on the entire band.

Thanks, and 73's,
Dave (NK7Z)
http://www.nk7z.net
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I was going to recommend what Don says with a twist. (BTW, it's page 38 in the
K3S manual)

To get a normalized noise reading, terminate the RX antenna connector, select it
and let the AFV value stabilize. Then select the normal antenna and the dBV
display. This will display the ratio of external noise to a 50 Ohm
termination. Mode and BW will have some effect but as long as they are constant
you will get good info. Of course, all of this assumes no signals in the passband.

Wes N7WS

On 8/1/2017 7:58 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Dave,
>
> You can use the Alternate VFO B display of AFV to give better resolution than
> the S-meter. See page 36 of the K3 manual. You must have the CONFIG: TECH
> MODE turned on to show the AFV entry.
>
> If you want to see the difference between two values, there is also the DBV
> alternate VFO B display which will show the difference in dB between 2 noise
> or signal settings.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/1/2017 10:17 AM, Dave Sublette wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I currently live in a townhouse and have made an offer on a few acres in a
>>> more rural area. I would like to measure the relative noise levels between
>>> the two locations to reduce the probability of surprises or disappointments
>>> should I close the deal. I have gotten access to a very good battery
>>> powered spectrum analyzer and plan to use a tripod-mounted 6 foot whip and a
>>> 20 dB LNA to measure the noise levels at each location.
>>>
>>> While setting this up, I though it would be interesting to try to also use
>>> the K3 to measure noise with the same antenna (but without the LNA). I've
>>> written a Python script to control the K3 as it steps through each band and
>>> records S meter levels.
>>>
>>> I'm looking for recommendations on K3 settings for this purpose. Specific
>>> questions I have are:
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

In reply to this post by Rick Miller - N1RM

On 8/1/2017 6:33 AM, Rick Miller - N1RM wrote:
> I currently live in a townhouse and have made an offer on a few acres in a
> more rural area. I would like to measure the relative noise levels between
> the two locations to reduce the probability of surprises or disappointments
> should I close the deal. I have gotten access to a very good battery
> powered spectrum analyzer and plan to use a tripod-mounted 6 foot whip and a
> 20 dB LNA to measure the noise levels at each location.

Hi Rick,

There are several good, inexpensive SDR receivers that plug into and are
powered by a USB port. The SDR Play1 costs about $130 at HRO. See
k9yc.com/KillingRXNoiseVisalia.ppt for a list of several others.
There's good freeware from multiple sources to produce excellent
spectrum displays and get RX audio out of a computer speaker. There's
also freeware for Android and iPhone. Also study the link above for what
sort of noise sources to look for, and how to identity the shources you
see.

73, Jim K9YC

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Jim Brown-10

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

In reply to this post by NK7Z

Dave's advice and techniques are excellent, and I've incorporated them
into my talks and writing on chasing RFI.

73, Jim K9YC

On 8/1/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

> Might I suggest this:
>
> http://nk7z.net/sdr-rfi-survey-p1/
>
> blog entry. It is a way of using a cheap SDR to get an overview of
> your RFI environment, and a way of being able to compare two
> environments.
>
> We are going to move soon, and I wanted a way to do exactly what you
> described here. I wanted a way to characterize the RFI on an entire
> ham band at once, and this fills the bill well.

Jim AB3CV

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

I have an RSP1 and it works well with the free software available to do
spectrum work. I particularly like HDSDR's ability to make long term
recordings.

However I found it of limited use on 160m due to AMBC interference since it
doesn't have much (or any?) front end filtering. I'm 30 miles north of
Baltimore where the AMBC originates.

I put a brickwall filter in front of it and it worked very well afterwards.

I've recently bought an RSP2Pro which has better filtering in it which I
hope will eliminate the need for the external filter. I haven't had time to
even plug it in yet.

73

jim ab3cv

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dave's advice and techniques are excellent, and I've incorporated them
> into my talks and writing on chasing RFI.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 8/1/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>
>> Might I suggest this:
>>
>> http://nk7z.net/sdr-rfi-survey-p1/
>>
>> blog entry. It is a way of using a cheap SDR to get an overview of your
>> RFI environment, and a way of being able to compare two environments.
>>
>> We are going to move soon, and I wanted a way to do exactly what you
>> described here. I wanted a way to characterize the RFI on an entire ham
>> band at once, and this fills the bill well.
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Thanks Jim. I live out in the country, at least 30 miles from any high
power AM BC, so haven't had this issue or evaluated that important
capability. The little FunCube Dongle Pro+ also has filtering, but I
don't know how good it is. It covers only 192 kHz at a time, but is
16-bits, so has greater dynamic range. The SDRPlay RSP2 is probably more
useful, thanks to its greater display bandwidth.

With any of these radios, N7WS's calibration method (or something like
it) should be used. Another suggestion -- take your test setup to a spot
in the middle of nowhere -- no buildings, no power lines, no solar or
wind arrays -- and look at the noise floor there. Save those data as a
reference -- that's your objective at a new QTH.

Also, look around the area, and apply common sense. Are there houses?
Farms? Businesses? Radio towers? Cell towers? All are likely to have
dozens of noise sources, either now or in the future. My applications
note on chasing RFI talks about many of them.

73, Jim K9YC

On 8/1/2017 10:21 AM, Jim Miller wrote:

> I have an RSP1 and it works well with the free software available to
> do spectrum work. I particularly like HDSDR's ability to make long
> term recordings.
>
> However I found it of limited use on 160m due to AMBC interference
> since it doesn't have much (or any?) front end filtering. I'm 30 miles
> north of Baltimore where the AMBC originates.
>
> I put a brickwall filter in front of it and it worked very well
> afterwards.
>
> I've recently bought an RSP2Pro which has better filtering in it which
> I hope will eliminate the need for the external filter. I haven't had
> time to even plug it in yet.

Rick Miller - N1RM

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Thanks for all the info!

It turns out I have an RSP2 and now have it running with HDSDR in "slow" waterfall mode. I'm now looking for a way to control the front end options of the RSP2 - nothing seems to be built into HDSDR to do that, but that's a topic for another mail list. BTW - I conveniently have an EXCELLENT Clifton Labs 1800 KHz AMBC high pass filter that sure tames the input dynamic range when measuring 160M.

I will also try the suggestions for different ways to record signal strength on the K3.

Thanks again,
Rick
N1RM

Elecraft mailing list

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Rick,
While it is not easy, you should put in the agenda checking it day and night. I found very different noise profiles that way....
Mel, K6KBE

From: Rick Miller - N1RM <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Thanks for all the info!

It turns out I have an RSP2 and now have it running with HDSDR in "slow"
waterfall mode. I'm now looking for a way to control the front end options
of the RSP2 - nothing seems to be built into HDSDR to do that, but that's a
topic for another mail list. BTW - I conveniently have an EXCELLENT Clifton
Labs 1800 KHz AMBC high pass filter that sure tames the input dynamic range
when measuring 160M.

I will also try the suggestions for different ways to record signal strength
on the K3.

Thanks again,
Rick
N1RM

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Using-K3-for-relative-noise-survey-tp7632955p7632979.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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NK7Z

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Amen to that! Day and night are as different as-- well-- day and night!

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/01/2017 05:09 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

> Rick,
> While it is not easy, you should put in the agenda checking it day and night. I found very different noise profiles that way....
> Mel, K6KBE
>
> From: Rick Miller - N1RM <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey
>
> Thanks for all the info!
>
> It turns out I have an RSP2 and now have it running with HDSDR in "slow"
> waterfall mode. I'm now looking for a way to control the front end options
> of the RSP2 - nothing seems to be built into HDSDR to do that, but that's a
> topic for another mail list. BTW - I conveniently have an EXCELLENT Clifton
> Labs 1800 KHz AMBC high pass filter that sure tames the input dynamic range
> when measuring 160M.
>
> I will also try the suggestions for different ways to record signal strength
> on the K3.
>
> Thanks again,
> Rick
> N1RM
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Using-K3-for-relative-noise-survey-tp7632955p7632979.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Just a warning: my buddy did a survey of his property (which did end up
being a contesting site) and heard nothing. Turns out the high-tension
lines about 1000' away were turned off for maintenance at the time.

On Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Dave Cole wrote:

> Amen to that! Day and night are as different as-- well-- day and night!

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Apologies for taking this away from Elecraft topic, however, you might be
interested in a specific noise measurement system here:
http://www.crosscountrywireless.net/sentinel_2_sdr.htm
in which a *calibrated* sdr is programmed to continuously listen on 5 unused
HF frequencies and report to APRS every 10s.
Also:
http://g4fkh.co.uk/projects/noise-measuring-campaign/

David
G3UNA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Farrer via Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
To: "Rick Miller - N1RM" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

> Rick,
> While it is not easy, you should put in the agenda checking it day and
> night. I found very different noise profiles that way....
> Mel, K6KBE
>
> From: Rick Miller - N1RM <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey
>
> Thanks for all the info!
>
> It turns out I have an RSP2 and now have it running with HDSDR in "slow"
> waterfall mode. I'm now looking for a way to control the front end options
> of the RSP2 - nothing seems to be built into HDSDR to do that, but that's
> a
> topic for another mail list. BTW - I conveniently have an EXCELLENT
> Clifton
> Labs 1800 KHz AMBC high pass filter that sure tames the input dynamic
> range
> when measuring 160M.
>
> I will also try the suggestions for different ways to record signal
> strength
> on the K3.
>
> Thanks again,
> Rick
> N1RM

Wes Stewart-2

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

They should fix some links on this site.

On 8/4/2017 2:26 AM, David Cutter via Elecraft wrote:

> Apologies for taking this away from Elecraft topic, however, you might be
> interested in a specific noise measurement system here:
> http://www.crosscountrywireless.net/sentinel_2_sdr.htm
> in which a *calibrated* sdr is programmed to continuously listen on 5 unused
> HF frequencies and report to APRS every 10s.
> Also:
> http://g4fkh.co.uk/projects/noise-measuring-campaign/
>
> David
> G3UNA

Elecraft mailing list

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

Yes, I already sent a message to Chris, hope he fixes that soon

David G3UNA

>
> On 04 August 2017 at 17:45 Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> They should fix some links on this site.
>
> On 8/4/2017 2:26 AM, David Cutter via Elecraft wrote:
> > Apologies for taking this away from Elecraft topic, however, you might
> > be
> > interested in a specific noise measurement system here:
> > http://www.crosscountrywireless.net/sentinel_2_sdr.htm
> > in which a *calibrated* sdr is programmed to continuously listen on 5
> > unused
> > HF frequencies and report to APRS every 10s.
> > Also:
> > http://g4fkh.co.uk/projects/noise-measuring-campaign/
> >
> > David
> > G3UNA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Here's what I found on the Wayback machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161216101425/http://www.crosscountrywireless.net/sentinel_sdr_program.htm

Hope the page opens for you

I used the system for a year or so, but my then XP machines all died. He
has re-designed the system with W10 compatibility so I intend to re-start my
monitoring using a cheap W10 tablet, which I'm hoping will have a longer
life!

David
G3UNA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wes Stewart" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Using K3 for relative noise survey

> They should fix some links on this site.
>
> On 8/4/2017 2:26 AM, David Cutter via Elecraft wrote:
>> Apologies for taking this away from Elecraft topic, however, you might be
>> interested in a specific noise measurement system here:
>> http://www.crosscountrywireless.net/sentinel_2_sdr.htm
>> in which a *calibrated* sdr is programmed to continuously listen on 5
>> unused HF frequencies and report to APRS every 10s.
>> Also:
>> http://g4fkh.co.uk/projects/noise-measuring-campaign/
>>
>> David
>> G3UNA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]