K3 - Which filters to get?

[Ed K1EP]

Now that the time has come to chose filters, which ones will you get?  What are people doing?  The easiest is to outfit both receivers with five filters each.  With that money, you can buy another radio.   Will you put a wide and narrow filter in each radio?  I primarily use CW, but do both CW and SSB contesting.  Do you outfit one RX with CW filters and the other with SSB?  Or do you make one RX the wide filter and the other the one with the narrow filters?  I think I might go with the standard SSB filter, the 400Hz, and either the 1.8 or 2.1K.  What is everyone else doing?

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[Julian, G4ILO]

On 7/19/07, Ed K1EP <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Now that the time has come to chose filters, which ones will you get?  What are people doing?  The easiest is to outfit both receivers with five filters each.  With that money, you can buy another radio.   Will you put a wide and narrow filter in each radio?  I primarily use CW, but do both CW and SSB contesting.  Do you outfit one RX with CW filters and the other with SSB?  Or do you make one RX the wide filter and the other the one with the narrow filters?  I think I might go with the standard SSB filter, the 400Hz, and either the 1.8 or 2.1K.  What is everyone else doing?

I'm just ordering the standard filters, then I'll wait and see what
else I need, with the additional benefit of learning from others'
experiences. :)
--
Julian, G4ILO
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
www.Ham-Directory.com: the best ham resources on the net
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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

I'm ordering one narrow filter and one very wide, both for digital use.

Filters are not a very big deal here - no strong signals from steroid
enhanced contest stations, just the local electric fence and my computer
network.

Narrow filter - to see what it does compared to just the DSP, wide - want a
nice flat 4 kHz for my digital software.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
>
> I'm just ordering the standard filters, then I'll wait and see what
> else I need, with the additional benefit of learning from others'
> experiences. :)
>

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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

I just went with the stock 2.7, the 6kc AM filter,
and the 15? kHz FM filter.
I doubt I would ever use FM, but who knows.
Plus, you can use the FM filter for short wave broadcast
reception and get to about 7kc in audio out.

If I was into DX or contests on CW, I would likely get
a narrow CW filter, but I am not so I did not.
I suspect the K3 will work better than any other radio
with just the 2.7kc filter.

Then there are the variable filters coming out in the future,
no sense in ordering a bunch of filters before we know
about them....

Brett
N2DTS


 

 

> I'm just ordering the standard filters, then I'll wait and see what
> else I need, with the additional benefit of learning from others'
> experiences. :)
> --
> Julian, G4ILO
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
> www.Ham-Directory.com: the best ham resources on the net
> _______________________________________________
>

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[Franki ON5ZO]

> If I was into DX or contests on CW, I would likely get
> a narrow CW filter, but I am not so I did not.
> I suspect the K3 will work better than any other radio
> with just the 2.7kc filter.

I was just about to post a question regarding filters yesterday. Then this
thread popped up. Which filters I'll be needing (80% CW contesting, 10%
other contesting, 10% DX)? Still: no one answered it exactly up to now.
I currently use 2 TS-850's in SO2R with 270Hz CW filter. I always listen
narrow (don't have the 500Hz filter) and use RIT. Would a 250 Hz / 8 pole
filter do the trick for me? And / or a 5 pole 500Hz?
And what with SSB? Those 10% include major SSB contests. 40m SSB from here
is... mayhem!
PSE advice?

In the FAQ, I read that DSP would 'auto track' the right filter. Does that
mean that you'd never be switching filters by hand? I'd like that. I almost
never have to touch my TS-850 except the VFO dial.

> Then there are the variable filters coming out in the future,

PSE define 'variable filters'?

Well, apart from the filters my wish list has almost become an order form
;o)

73 de Franki ON5ZO / OQ5M

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[Tom Hammond-2]

Ed K1EP wrote:
>Now that the time has come to chose filters, which ones will you
>get?  What are people doing?  The easiest is to outfit both
>receivers with five filters each.  With that money, you can buy
>another radio.   Will you put a wide and narrow filter in each
>radio?  I primarily use CW, but do both CW and SSB contesting.  Do
>you outfit one RX with CW filters and the other with SSB?  Or do you
>make one RX the wide filter and the other the one with the narrow
>filters?  I think I might go with the standard SSB filter, the
>400Hz, and either the 1.8 or 2.1K.  What is everyone else doing?

For the Field Test of the K3, the Field Testers were required to
purchase AT LEAST the 2.8kHz (INRAD) and 400Hz (INRAD) filters.

Of course, we were at liberty to add other filters as well, if
we felt the desire / need.

Being frugal (my kids call it 'being cheap') I opted to purchase
only the 'required' filters, figuring that most folks would only
buy what little they felt they could 'get by' with... AND that I
wanted to kinda try the K3 at a semi-worst case scenario... minimal
filtering. I also wanted to hold off a bit, to see how the proposed
'user-programmable' xtal filters will turn out, and I didn't want
to have a 'full boat' of filters and then have to REMOVE some in
order to fit in the variable filters once they are available to
customers.

So far, I've not been (at all) disappointed with my initial choice!

In the IARU contest this past weekend, I found the K3 to be easily
as selective as my K2, most times, quite a bit more selective, and
less susceptible to nearby (quite loud) signals.

As I cranked the bandwidth control down from 2.8kHz toward the 50Hz
lower limit, I could hear myself 'peeling off' layers of interfering
signals and more easily singling out the signal I wanted to hear in
the first place.

When The B/W finally rolled down to the 400Hz point, I could HEAR when
the K3 automatically switched from the 2.8kHz xtal filter to the 400Hz
xtal filter as a few more strong signals just 'dropped away' from the
passband between the 450Hz and 400Hz B/W settings.

What would I do differently now? Hmmm... well, IF I were not holding
off buying more filters (waiting for the variable versions), I'd
probably see about finding a moderately wide CW filter... in the 1kHz
B/W range, and install it. I think that'll give me a good set of tools
for operating both SSB and CW. While the 2.8KHz filter does a fine job
for SSB, and a pretty decent job (in concert with the DSP) for wider
CW bandwidths, having a mid-range CW filter would, I think, be a nice
addition to the arsenal for CW ops.

Now, what about the 250Hz or the 200Hz xtal filters...?
____________________________________________________________________
WARNING: Very personal OPINIONS follow, and I REFUSE(!) to get into
a debate with ANYONE (of or off reflector) about them... if you feel
differently, that's why they're PERSONAL OPINIONS.
____________________________________________________________________

PERSONALLY, I find that 85%-90% of my CW operating takes place at a
bandwidth of about 1kHz... even while contesting.  This is because I
LIKE being able to hear what's going on either side of the frequency
on which I'm operating.  In a CW contest, so few(!) operators do a
really creditable job of zero beating your signal that I very often find
them calling me up to 600Hz, or more off frequency. If I'm using a really
narrow bandwidth filter (xtal or DSP, doesn't matter), there's a very
large chance that I'll miss them calling me, and we'll both mot only
miss a QSO, but I'll waste additional time calling CQ again, when I could
have been making a Q instead. I let my brain do some of the required
'filtering' of signals, rather than becoming dependent upon a 'mechanical'
means, which is much more subjective, to do it for me. If I get into a
situation where there are some really BIG signals almost right on top of
me (or the guy I'm trying to work), I can always crank in some more
filtering, BUT I don't do it until it is necessary... and so far, the
DSP in the K3 (with the assistance of the 400Hz xtal filter) and been
more than adequate for this purpose.

I have a friend who insists in running his 250Hz CW filter all the time,
especially during CW contests! I've listened to him "running stations" on
a band, and I never cease to be amazed at how many callers he completely
MISSES because he allows himself to become 'mesmerized' by his almost
complete 'dependence' upon an the use of an often too narrow bandwidth
filter.  Don't get me wrong, very narrow filters are nice, but I find that
too many of us seem to become too dependent upon their use, when we should
be allowing our brains to do some of that work.

SOAPBOX OFF...

I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing IF the Elecraft variable bandwidth
xtal filters can become a reality. If not, I'll probably add a 1kHz CW
filter to my mix.

For the 2nd RX, which I've ordered as well, but which is not yet available
to the Field Testers, I'll probably want a similar filter setup... esp.
if I'm going to use it in a SO2R setting or even in SO1R  as well.

73,

Tom Hammond    N0SS  an old CW 'coot' who is WAY too opinionated.



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[waltk8cv4612amos]

Naturally , each person must make his / her own decisions .............. but
:

I too operate mostly cw but do ssb contesting too. Not much rtty any more.

I have an Orion 2 with all the there filters and I do mostly S&P cw now at
my age ( 77 yrs. ) !

I never use the 20 or 6 KHz filters but keep the selection on auto. The
Orion is a ham band only rig really. The second receiver is not up to the
quality of the main receiver! It is fine for split or casual SWL listening
and many thing, including the roofing filters do NOT work with the Orion's
second receiver like they do with the upcoming K-3.

So, that being said, I have the 6 KHz ( KFL3A-6K ) on order only because I
ordered the ( KBPF3 ) to turn the main receiver into an all band receiver !
A KFL3A-500 for general cw operation and a KFL3A-200 for contesting. I will
be using the 2.7 KHz for SSB. If at a later date they offer a 1.8 KHz SSB
filter I will get one for SSB contesting too. Maybe one of the variable
filters but then you are mucking around with a knob or something to change
the band width and I am not keen on that. I really would have liked a 300
KHz narrow filter instead of the 200 KHz but is has wide skirts and only 5
poles so may be just fine. Take a look at some of the explanations on

http://radio.tentec.com/amateur/transceivers/tt565

and

http://www.qth.com/inrad/roofing-filters.pdf

Filters are different in DSP radios ................ UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE
YEAR !

Walt K8CV Royal Oak, MI.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Franki ON5ZO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 7:57 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 - Which filters to get?

>> If I was into DX or contests on CW, I would likely get
>> a narrow CW filter, but I am not so I did not.
>> I suspect the K3 will work better than any other radio
>> with just the 2.7kc filter.
>
> I was just about to post a question regarding filters yesterday. Then this
> thread popped up. Which filters I'll be needing (80% CW contesting, 10%
> other contesting, 10% DX)? Still: no one answered it exactly up to now.
> I currently use 2 TS-850's in SO2R with 270Hz CW filter. I always listen
> narrow (don't have the 500Hz filter) and use RIT. Would a 250 Hz / 8 pole
> filter do the trick for me? And / or a 5 pole 500Hz?
> And what with SSB? Those 10% include major SSB contests. 40m SSB from here
> is... mayhem!
> PSE advice?
>
> In the FAQ, I read that DSP would 'auto track' the right filter. Does that
> mean that you'd never be switching filters by hand? I'd like that. I
> almost never have to touch my TS-850 except the VFO dial.
>
>> Then there are the variable filters coming out in the future,
>
> PSE define 'variable filters'?
>
> Well, apart from the filters my wish list has almost become an order form
> ;o)
>
> 73 de Franki ON5ZO / OQ5M
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
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[Greg - AB7R]

The filters are working great!  After receiving my beta rig I did alot of listening
during the first contest I could find.  Hearing weak CW sigs with nearby sigs at
+30 and +40 2 kHz away was no problem...even with closer spacing there was no
problem.

I presently have 400 Hz, 1.0 kHz, 2.8 kHz and a 6 kHz.  I will also have a 200 Hz
filter installed which will be great for CW and digital modes.  What I really like
is being able to only turn on the filters for a particular mode that I want to
use.  Its easy to setup....so I activate the 1 kHz and 400 Hz filters for CW and
DATA modes and the 2.8 and 6 kHz for SSB.  When adjusting the WIDTH control, the
active roofing filters will will automaticlly be selected as soon as you cross its
threshsold.  So if I am on CW and listening with a wide BW...say 800 Hz, the 1kHz
will be in line.  Rotating the knob down to 400 Hz or below will switch to the 400
Hz filter.  No need to do anything else.  But..if you want, you CAN manually select
another filter and the DSP BW will normalize to match that BW.

Another neat filtering option is the I/II toggle.  I keep a filter profile set up
as wide in the I bank and narrow in the II bank.  So instead of having to make
manual adjustments, I can just use that HOLD feature to toggle between the two
setting.

For casual operating.....you "can" suffice with the supplied 2.7 kHz filter and use
the DSP for the final BW.  But you are not going to get the most out of the K3's
capabilities by doing so.  

Look...you're getting a top of the line receiever here.  And if you are getting
one, I suspect at SOME time you will dabble in at least a contest or two or some
DXing....even with casual operating you are at times going to come up against some
strong nearby signals.  You WILL want the tools available to deal with them
effectively.  If you work CW....I really recommend at least the 400 or 500 Hz
filter options.  If you are doing allot of contesting...get one even narrower...and
it will suit your digital mode needs as well.



-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065

On Thu Jul 19  7:57 , "Franki ON5ZO"  sent:

>> If I was into DX or contests on CW, I would likely get
>> a narrow CW filter, but I am not so I did not.
>> I suspect the K3 will work better than any other radio
>> with just the 2.7kc filter.
>
>I was just about to post a question regarding filters yesterday. Then this
>thread popped up. Which filters I'll be needing (80% CW contesting, 10%
>other contesting, 10% DX)? Still: no one answered it exactly up to now.
>I currently use 2 TS-850's in SO2R with 270Hz CW filter. I always listen
>narrow (don't have the 500Hz filter) and use RIT. Would a 250 Hz / 8 pole
>filter do the trick for me? And / or a 5 pole 500Hz?
>And what with SSB? Those 10% include major SSB contests. 40m SSB from here
>is... mayhem!
>PSE advice?
>
>In the FAQ, I read that DSP would 'auto track' the right filter. Does that
>mean that you'd never be switching filters by hand? I'd like that. I almost
>never have to touch my TS-850 except the VFO dial.
>
>> Then there are the variable filters coming out in the future,
>
>PSE define 'variable filters'?
>
>Well, apart from the filters my wish list has almost become an order form
>;o)
>
>73 de Franki ON5ZO / OQ5M
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

> Now that the time has come to chose filters, which ones will
> you get?  What are people doing?  The easiest is to outfit
> both receivers with five filters each.  With that money, you
> can buy another radio.   Will you put a wide and narrow
> filter in each radio?  I primarily use CW, but do both CW and
> SSB contesting.  Do you outfit one RX with CW filters and the
> other with SSB?  Or do you make one RX the wide filter and
> the other the one with the narrow filters?  I think I might
> go with the standard SSB filter, the 400Hz, and either the
> 1.8 or 2.1K.  What is everyone else doing?

The K3 is an outstanding, extremely competitive radio with NO additional
filters beyond the included 2.7KHz.  Take the Icom 756ProIII as a
comparative example.  The ProIII is an excellent radio with a SINGLE 15KHz
roofing filter, and no provision to add more.  (Except for the
just-introduced 4-5KHz third party roofing filter add-on from INRAD).  Both
the K3 and the ProIII rely on DSP IF filtering.  In my field testing to
date, the K3's DSP filtering is even better than the ProIII.  With the K3
DSP, you have continuously variable IF filtering in 50Hz steps from your
widest roofing filter down to 50Hz.

I recommend that everyone keep this filter discussion in perspective.  As
has been written many times, the need for additional K3 roofing filters is
confined to specific needs that not everyone has.  If you want to transmit
FM or AM, you will need those filters since the roofing filters are also
used in the transmit chain.  If you know that you have problems with nearby
strong signals in your operating, e.g., tough contesting environments or DX
pileups as a DX station, then additional narrower roofing filters may have
value.  But, don't get carried away ... these are not IF filters.  Back to
the ProIII, of which hundreds are in use by serious contesters and major
DXpeditions, a single 15KHz roofing filter and excellent DSP IF filtering
provides a high performance receiver.

If you are certain that you will need the ultimate in IMD performance, then
consider specifically your use scenario(s).  For SSB, I prefer the 2.1KHz
over the 1.8KHz.  The 1.8KHz SSB bandwidth is very difficult to listen with,
and in those rare occasions when you might think it necessary, you can
always narrow down the DSP after the 2.1KHz filter.  For CW, it depends on
how much you use your brain vs. the radio's filtering to focus on signals of
interest.  Depending entirely on the radio's filters has the disadvantage of
missing the large number of stations who will call off your zero-beat
frequency.  The 500Hz or 400Hz filter will meet most CW needs 99% of the
time, again remembering that it is only for the purpose of removing nearby
large signals prior to the DSP doing the main filtering.  Beyond this,
additional roofing filters are the purview of fanatics or those on a
DXpedition to a top Most-Needed entity or a contester seeking a new world
record.

Reality is not as black and white as I paint it here, of course, but this
should set some guidelines on which optional filters, if any, to include in
your initial K3 order.  Besides, if you fill up all the K3 roofing filter
slots right away, you diminish future expansion opportunity!

73,
Ed - W0YK

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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

Elecraft plans on making variable 1st IF filters, like what is in the
K2, for the K3.

Then, the first IF filter will track the dsp bandwidth settings.

Not sure what range and performance they will have, surely not
15 KHz to 200 Hz, but maybe you can run one for ssb and one for cw,
and get the dsp and filter to track within 50hz?

So you might get one filter to go from say 1Kc to 200Hz for CW,
in 50 Hz steps....



Brett
N2DTS

> >
> > Then there are the variable filters coming out in the future,
>
> PSE define 'variable filters'?
>
> Well, apart from the filters my wish list has almost become
> an order form
> ;o)
>
> 73 de Franki ON5ZO / OQ5M
>

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[Tom Hammond-2]

At 11:29 07/19/2007, Brett gazdzinski wrote:

>Elecraft plans on making variable 1st IF filters, like what is in the
>K2, for the K3.
>
>Then, the first IF filter will track the dsp bandwidth settings.
>
>Not sure what range and performance they will have, surely not
>15 KHz to 200 Hz, but maybe you can run one for ssb and one for cw,
>and get the dsp and filter to track within 50hz?
>
>So you might get one filter to go from say 1Kc to 200Hz for CW,
>in 50 Hz steps....
>
>Brett
>N2DTS

I believe it's supposed to be 'programmable' with up to eight specific
bandwidth settings.  At least, I think that's the original concept.

Tom

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