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[K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

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jh3sif

[K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

One of my friend K3 users report that AF output level with 100Hz passband width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also reported that a noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband width from 150Hz to 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to his K3, but some other K3 users including myself reported the same.
Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been bothered by this reduced AF output level and noise. If the AF output level change is caused by K3 DSP filter design or program, adding automatic gain compensation feature to keep same AF output level would be highly welcome.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

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Lyle Johnson

Re: [K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

Check if IIR or FIR filtering is selected for the narrowest bands.

Also note that the receiver equalizer is not used in the 50 Hz and 100
Hz widths, so if the radio is set up for a boost at the selected pitch
frequency, the amplitude will drop. Be sure the receiver equalizer is
set to o in the frequencies that include the desired pitch.

Please see the manual for details on how to check and do these if you
are uncertain.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> ...AF output level with 100Hz passband width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also reported that a noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband width from 150Hz to 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to his K3, but some other K3 users including myself reported the same.
> Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been bothered by this reduced AF output level and noise...

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

In reply to this post by jh3sif

RX EQ is disabled when moving from 150 Hz to 100 Hz ...

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 9/13/2015 10:41 PM, Keith Onishi wrote:

> One of my friend K3 users report that AF output level with 100Hz passband width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also reported that a noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband width from 150Hz to 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to his K3, but some other K3 users including myself reported the same.
> Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been bothered by this reduced AF output level and noise. If the AF output level change is caused by K3 DSP filter design or program, adding automatic gain compensation feature to keep same AF output level would be highly welcome.
>
> 73 de JH3SIF, Keith
>
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k6dgw

Re: [K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

In reply to this post by jh3sif

Ummm ... on my K3 [#642 but upgraded by Elecraft and with new synth],
the noise level decreases as I narrow the BW, pretty much just like
information theory says it should. On the other hand, a CW signal
centered in the passband doesn't change much if at all. I'm pretty sure
that's how it's supposed to work. I can detect a tiny decrease in the
signal level but it is just discernable, nothing big or a problem.

I normally run CW in contests at 250 Hz, sometimes 200 Hz, I have used
100 Hz occasionally when necessary. I don't think I've ever used 50 Hz,
CW sidebands at 30 WPM exceed that and the code elements start to run
together from ISI.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 9/13/2015 7:41 PM, Keith Onishi wrote:

> One of my friend K3 users report that AF output level with 100Hz
> passband width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also
> reported that a noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband
> width from 150Hz to 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to
> his K3, but some other K3 users including myself reported the same.
> Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been
> bothered by this reduced AF output level and noise. If the AF output
> level change is caused by K3 DSP filter design or program, adding
> automatic gain compensation feature to keep same AF output level
> would be highly welcome.
>
> 73 de JH3SIF, Keith

jh3sif

Re: [K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

In reply to this post by Lyle Johnson

Hi Lyle. Thanks for your suggestions.
I am going to talk to my friend on them.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

> 2015/09/14 11:58、Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]> のメール：
>
> Check if IIR or FIR filtering is selected for the narrowest bands.
>
> Also note that the receiver equalizer is not used in the 50 Hz and 100 Hz widths, so if the radio is set up for a boost at the selected pitch frequency, the amplitude will drop. Be sure the receiver equalizer is set to o in the frequencies that include the desired pitch.
>
> Please see the manual for details on how to check and do these if you are uncertain.
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
>
>> ...AF output level with 100Hz passband width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also reported that a noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband width from 150Hz to 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to his K3, but some other K3 users including myself reported the same.
>> Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been bothered by this reduced AF output level and noise...
>
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jh3sif

Re: [K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

In reply to this post by jh3sif

My friend informed me that setting 0 to all section of RX EQ solved the AF output level change issue.
Many thanks to all for your suggestions.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

> 2015/09/14 18:12、Mike K2MK <[hidden email]> のメール：
>
> Hi Keith,
>
> I think the problem is in the setting for the RXEQ. You do not want to use
> +db boost for CW. As I understand it, RXEQ is disabled at 100Hz and 50Hz
> width. So if he has boosted a particular frequency by 10db then when he
> narrows the bandwidth he will suddenly hear a loss of audio signal of 10db.
> To solve this problem keep the RXEQ set to 0 db for the frequencies of
> interest and use negative db settings for the frequencies of no interest.
>
> 73,
> Mike K2MK
>
>
> Keith Onishi wrote
>> One of my friend K3 users report that AF output level with 100Hz passband
>> width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also reported that a
>> noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband width from 150Hz to
>> 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to his K3, but some other
>> K3 users including myself reported the same.
>> Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been bothered by
>> this reduced AF output level and noise. If the AF output level change is
>> caused by K3 DSP filter design or program, adding automatic gain
>> compensation feature to keep same AF output level would be highly welcome.
>>
>> 73 de JH3SIF, Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Width-Control-and-AF-Output-Level-tp7607595p7607610.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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jh3sif

Re: [K3] Width Control and AF Output Level

Hi Bob,

Many thanks for your suggestion.
I sent you my reply, but your mail server rejected as a possible abuse.

> Hi Kieth,
>
> it is nor necessary to set all to 0db. Just do not use the EQ for peaking. He can still use roll off of the undesired lows and highs leaving the mid range flat that covers the beat frequencies (pitch) of interest.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K2TK ex KN2TKR (1956) & K2TKR

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

> 2015/09/15 6:39、Keith Onishi <[hidden email]> のメール：
>
> My friend informed me that setting 0 to all section of RX EQ solved the AF output level change issue.
> Many thanks to all for your suggestions.
>
> 73 de JH3SIF, Keith
>
>> 2015/09/14 18:12、Mike K2MK <[hidden email]> のメール：
>>
>> Hi Keith,
>>
>> I think the problem is in the setting for the RXEQ. You do not want to use
>> +db boost for CW. As I understand it, RXEQ is disabled at 100Hz and 50Hz
>> width. So if he has boosted a particular frequency by 10db then when he
>> narrows the bandwidth he will suddenly hear a loss of audio signal of 10db.
>> To solve this problem keep the RXEQ set to 0 db for the frequencies of
>> interest and use negative db settings for the frequencies of no interest.
>>
>> 73,
>> Mike K2MK
>>
>>
>> Keith Onishi wrote
>>> One of my friend K3 users report that AF output level with 100Hz passband
>>> width is lower than with 150Hz passband width. He also reported that a
>>> noise like “Ptsu” was generated on reducing passband width from 150Hz to
>>> 100Hz. He had guessed that these were specific to his K3, but some other
>>> K3 users including myself reported the same.
>>> Some extreme users who use this narrow passband may have been bothered by
>>> this reduced AF output level and noise. If the AF output level change is
>>> caused by K3 DSP filter design or program, adding automatic gain
>>> compensation feature to keep same AF output level would be highly welcome.
>>>
>>> 73 de JH3SIF, Keith
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Width-Control-and-AF-Output-Level-tp7607595p7607610.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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Mark AB7MP

Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by jh3sif

After being CW only for over 2 decades, I've made the decision (now that I
have a K3S/100) to move into digital comms. It's time for me to experience
a 1st contact in a new mode - been a really long time.

For software, I've got DXLab for logging (WW included, of course), FLDIGI,
DigiPan, MMTY, JT65-HF, WSPR, LP Bridge and a very messy desktop!

Audio is being handled via USB and I can do additional routing (if
necessary) with a virtual mixer.

I do have Fred Cady's book on the K3S, ARRL's Get on the Air with HF Digital
and HF Digital Handbook.

1st question - are there any other resources I should look at or am I
already overloaded?
2nd question - web sites, youtube, etc. - what are (IYHO) the better
resources?

With such a great rig, I realized I was wasting part of my investment by not
utilizing it more fully. That said, I'm planning on attacking many of the
modes until I settle in on one or two.

I've got some time off work now (recouping after some surgery) so I'll have
some time to enjoy discovering more about the rig.

73

Mark, ab7mp

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Peter Pauly

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

I find that WSJT-X works better for me than JT65-HF and is written by Joe
Taylor (K1JT) himself.

http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Mark <[hidden email]> wrote:

> After being CW only for over 2 decades, I've made the decision (now that I
> have a K3S/100) to move into digital comms. It's time for me to experience
> a 1st contact in a new mode - been a really long time.
>
> For software, I've got DXLab for logging (WW included, of course), FLDIGI,
> DigiPan, MMTY, JT65-HF, WSPR, LP Bridge and a very messy desktop!
>
> Audio is being handled via USB and I can do additional routing (if
> necessary) with a virtual mixer.
>
> I do have Fred Cady's book on the K3S, ARRL's Get on the Air with HF
> Digital and HF Digital Handbook.
>
> 1st question - are there any other resources I should look at or am I
> already overloaded?
> 2nd question - web sites, youtube, etc. - what are (IYHO) the better
> resources?
>
> With such a great rig, I realized I was wasting part of my investment by
> not utilizing it more fully. That said, I'm planning on attacking many of
> the modes until I settle in on one or two.
>
> I've got some time off work now (recouping after some surgery) so I'll
> have some time to enjoy discovering more about the rig.
>
> 73
>
> Mark, ab7mp
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Jim Rodenkirch

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by Mark AB7MP

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Bill Frantz

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by Mark AB7MP

I generally recommend people start in the digital world with
PSK31. There is quite a bit of activity between 14.070 and
14.073 on the 20 meter band. You can use the radio's VOX for
keying, so you can avoid having to worry about a keying
interface for the start. The PSK signal is symmetric, so you
should be able to work and copy other stations without worrying
about USB vs. LSB issues.

When you get PSK running, you know your computer can communicate
with your radio both ways. Then when you try other modes, and
they don't work, you start debugging with a large number of
things that do work.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 11/19/15 at 8:57 AM, [hidden email] (Mark) wrote:

>After being CW only for over 2 decades, I've made the decision
>(now that I have a K3S/100) to move into digital comms. It's
>time for me to experience a 1st contact in a new mode - been a
>really long time.
>
>For software, I've got DXLab for logging (WW included, of
>course), FLDIGI, DigiPan, MMTY, JT65-HF, WSPR, LP Bridge and a
>very messy desktop!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"After all, if the conventional wisdom was
working, the
408-356-8506 | rate of systems being compromised would be
going down,
www.pwpconsult.com | wouldn't it?" -- Marcus Ranum

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Mark AB7MP

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

Thanks, Bill.

That was the direction I was going as far as a jumping off point was
concerned.
I did install WSJT-X and see a lot of JT-65 but no JT-9 yet.
Started working through configs for PSK31 with WinWarbler and think I'm
about ready. I'm going to spend some time looking at the macros so I don't
have to think too much when I "stick my big toe in the pond" - maybe
tomorrow. I want to spend some time copying to catch the rhythm of the
operating and get a feel for what would be expected in a QSO.

Actually, that's what makes JT65 look appealing - very canned action for the
most part. Just don't get to know the other op as well.

Appreciate the comments I've read - I'll let everyone know how it works out
for me.

73

Mark, ab7mp

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

I concur with Bill in that PSK is an easy mode to get running. It is
fun, regardless if you chase DX or just like to rag chew. Although I use
the K3S, there is only one cable required between the computer and the
radio. It handles the audio and the PTT and CAT commands. No
interface required. I do use a SignaLink USB with one of my other
radios. For software, FLDIGI is free, and has the required
configuration files for the KX3 and K3/K3S radios. Plus the MACRO's are
easy to configure for your personal liking and it creates a log which
can be uploaded to your favorite logging program.

I finally figured out that the more software applications I have running
to do different things, the more issues I have to resolve. Some software
systems will easily hand shake and work with others, while others turn
into more of a fist fight. I typically only run one application and let
it do all my radio chores.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10163

On 11/19/2015 6:06 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> I generally recommend people start in the digital world with PSK31.
> There is quite a bit of activity between 14.070 and 14.073 on the 20
> meter band. You can use the radio's VOX for keying, so you can avoid
> having to worry about a keying interface for the start. The PSK signal
> is symmetric, so you should be able to work and copy other stations
> without worrying about USB vs. LSB issues.
>
> When you get PSK running, you know your computer can communicate with
> your radio both ways. Then when you try other modes, and they don't
> work, you start debugging with a large number of things that do work.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV

Peter Pauly

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

For James:

I don't see as much JT9 as I do JT65, but JT9 works better for weaker
signals (even weaker than JT65) so you can work stations that are farther
away or under worse conditions.

JT65/JT9 is like shooting fish in a barrel (it's easy to make a lot of
distant contacts).

I also have to confess that it's so slow, I usually do something else while
I'm making QSO's.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I concur with Bill in that PSK is an easy mode to get running. It is
> fun, regardless if you chase DX or just like to rag chew. Although I use
> the K3S, there is only one cable required between the computer and the
> radio. It handles the audio and the PTT and CAT commands. No interface
> required. I do use a SignaLink USB with one of my other radios. For
> software, FLDIGI is free, and has the required configuration files for the
> KX3 and K3/K3S radios. Plus the MACRO's are easy to configure for your
> personal liking and it creates a log which can be uploaded to your favorite
> logging program.
>
> I finally figured out that the more software applications I have running
> to do different things, the more issues I have to resolve. Some software
> systems will easily hand shake and work with others, while others turn into
> more of a fist fight. I typically only run one application and let it do
> all my radio chores.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
> K3S s/n 10163
>
> On 11/19/2015 6:06 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>> I generally recommend people start in the digital world with PSK31. There
>> is quite a bit of activity between 14.070 and 14.073 on the 20 meter band.
>> You can use the radio's VOX for keying, so you can avoid having to worry
>> about a keying interface for the start. The PSK signal is symmetric, so you
>> should be able to work and copy other stations without worrying about USB
>> vs. LSB issues.
>>
>> When you get PSK running, you know your computer can communicate with
>> your radio both ways. Then when you try other modes, and they don't work,
>> you start debugging with a large number of things that do work.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

mcduffie

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by Mark AB7MP

> Is JT9 rockin' the lower bands - 160, 80 and 40???

Can't answer that, but JT9g is going strong on 10 meters (28.148). It's a high
speed version of JT9 used on both meteor scatter and Es. A slightly higher
bandwidth version, JT9h, is used on 6 meters, and is quite popular (50.280).
Currently, there's lots of activity daily, but we're needing to spread the word
to DX folks to tune up that high.

Transmission lengths available are 5 second, 10 second, 15 seconds, and 30
seconds. When the band is up, a full exchange can be done using 5 second tx/rx
cycles in less than one minute. Extending to 15 second cycles takes
appropriately longer. Semi automatic completion is used most of the time.
Typically, a full QSO will be done before you can finish entering it in the log!
:) 15 second exchanges are default, but can be extended when sigs are quite
weak.

Gary - AG0N
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by Peter Pauly

Oh I agree on that too. The typical JT-65 or JT-9 QSO takes a long time
like 5 to 7 minutes or more under good conditions. But the software /
mode will dig signals out of the noise one can't hear by ear.

I do encourage one to get their CAT interface working correctly with the
software. Makes life so much easier.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 11/19/2015 7:32 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:

> For James:
>
> I don't see as much JT9 as I do JT65, but JT9 works better for weaker
> signals (even weaker than JT65) so you can work stations that are
> farther away or under worse conditions.
>
> JT65/JT9 is like shooting fish in a barrel (it's easy to make a lot of
> distant contacts).
>
> I also have to confess that it's so slow, I usually do something else
> while I'm making QSO's.

Mark AB7MP

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

Deed is done! Just made my 1st digi QSO JT-9 at 5W 460 miles. Got it
imported to DXLab logbook - all is right with the world.

Thanks for all the comments - they were very helpful.

73

Mark, ab7mp

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob McGraw - K4TAX
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 5:41 PM
To: Peter Pauly
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Get the kids off the street - making my move!

Oh I agree on that too. The typical JT-65 or JT-9 QSO takes a long time
like 5 to 7 minutes or more under good conditions. But the software /
mode will dig signals out of the noise one can't hear by ear.

I do encourage one to get their CAT interface working correctly with the
software. Makes life so much easier.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 11/19/2015 7:32 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:

> For James:
>
> I don't see as much JT9 as I do JT65, but JT9 works better for weaker
> signals (even weaker than JT65) so you can work stations that are farther
> away or under worse conditions.
>
> JT65/JT9 is like shooting fish in a barrel (it's easy to make a lot of
> distant contacts).
>
> I also have to confess that it's so slow, I usually do something else
> while I'm making QSO's.

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Wes (N7WS)

Re: Get the kids off the street - making my move!

In reply to this post by Mark AB7MP

Think about watching grass grow while the other guy tells you the name of his dog.

On Nov 19, 2015, at 5:26 PM, "Mark" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks, Bill.
>
> I want to spend some time copying to catch the rhythm of the operating and get a feel for what would be expected in a QSO.
>
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Mark, ab7mp
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