Elecraft › [K3]

K3 & S9 43' Vertical

Classic

List

Threaded

28 messages Options

Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical

The key there being 15m and a 12 foot tank whip, which is nearly resonant
and definitely not short for the frequency. The cruel reality mostly comes
into play on the lower bands. Also, it sounds as if your four radials were
elevated -- is that a correct read? That would make your antenna a resonant
elevated ground plane antenna with resonant elevated radials. That would be
a very efficient antenna without any of the afore-mentioned lossy
entanglements with ground or ghastly feedline mismatch issues. I would say
you had very good advice from somewhere.

Physics is no respecter of kids. On the other hand, kids are VERY capable
of doing really neat things if they have the right advice to start with.
When I was in my middle teens, smartest ham around (not me for sure) was an
eighth grader. Wisest ham around was the chief engineer at WCTT. Two of
them together very formidable. Last I heard on the rumor circuit, maybe
twenty years ago, the kid had grown up to be an IEEE Fellow or something
like that.

Kids don't need to be fed inefficient over-simplifications because their
brains aren't developed. Tell a kid the right stuff and the next thing you
know he's beating you out in the pileups. Been there, had that done to me.
BIG thrill for the kid to beat out the old man in a pileup. Hear about it
for the next decade.

73, Guy.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 12:34 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My first vertical was a 12 foot length of army tank whip (4, 3-foot
> sections) u-bolted to a 12 foot length of 2x2 pine, attached to the side
> of an enclosed patio in my backyard. The radials were four, 1/4-wave for
> 15 m wires at what was supposed to be 90 degrees to apart. It was fed with
> 50 feet of RG-59U and driven by a Viking Adventurer. So, with about 25
> watts out, and the benefit of Cycle 19, K2UMU worked all over EU on 15m
> CW. I agree with Phil - we can't always be "purists," especially when one
> is 11 years old and in 7th grade.
>
> Rob K6RB
>
> > "If you CAN'T do radials right, DON'T do grounded verticals. As simple
> as
> > that."
> >
> > I disagree. Licensed in 1964 at 15, I operated with a 4BTV through high
> > school and college with just a ground rod. I didn't know any better, but
> > had lots of fun - even with a Knightkit T60 transmitter. Was it
> > efficient? Nope. But I sure enjoyed the hobby during that time. Of
> > course, I later learned that I could have had even MORE fun if I'd had
> > radials.
> >
> > Phil - AD5X
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Phil Salas

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

"Phil, QRZ tells me that you live in Richardson TX, north of Dallas. You
have some of the best ground conductivity in the nation! Don't try this in
most other places."

I was WN3BCQ/WA3BCQ in Maryland.

Phil - AD5X

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical

That may be true regarding ground conductivity, but we don't get ANY of
the best propagation.

73,

Bob W5OV
NTX - EM12

> "Phil, QRZ tells me that you live in Richardson TX, north of Dallas. You
> have some of the best ground conductivity in the nation! Don't try this in
> most other places."
>
> I was WN3BCQ/WA3BCQ in Maryland.
>
> Phil - AD5X
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical [END of thread]

Administrator

In reply to this post by Phil Salas

Lot's of good information, but we've hit the posting max number limit
for this thread. Let's let it rest for now.

73, Eric
List moderator

On 3/23/2011 10:17 AM, Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:
> "Phil, QRZ tells me that you live in Richardson TX, north of Dallas. You
> have some of the best ground conductivity in the nation! Don't try this in
> most other places."
>
> I was WN3BCQ/WA3BCQ in Maryland.
>
> Phil - AD5X
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Yup, wherever Phil was, Phil got away with it. Phil is the exception that
proves the rule.

Nobody near where I lived in lower New York state would get away with it
(rocks for ground). I didn't get away with it in the Virginia suburbs of
DC. And that was good growing dirt, too -- best garden plot anywhere we've
lived. You can get away with it big time at the edge of salt water. Trick
is to either know all the issues, how they apply to where you are, and how
to deal with them, OR get lucky. Lottery anyone?

What I really don't understand, from a reflector populated with those who
want 1 Hertz accuracy all the time on their K3's and fuss if they don't get
it, who want really complex options to deal with subtle efficiencies in a
contest and write brain-damage macros to orchestrate them, who have
arguments over the difference between 400 and 500 watts, who argue that 0.3
dB makes a difference in a contest, etc, etc.....

....what I really don't understand, from THIS crowd, is why antenna issues
that result in +/- 8 dB swings in the radiation outcome are heartily dissed
as being optional. Somebody explain that to me. If we were even one tenth
as hard on our antenna stuff as we are on the K3, we wouldn't be having this
discussion.

I have heard from far more discouraged attempts on 160m (killed by ground
issues) than even my own cynical "most 160m antenna installations are sh*t"
assessment of 160 antennary would predict. Even at a purely selfish level,
when the 160 tests roll around, I would LOVE to have all those discouraged
tried-to-get-on-160 hams on the band with grand signals to keep things
lively for the whole contest and run up all our scores.

Let's quit being such apologists for the status quo on verticals and radial
systems.

73, and may you put out a killer signal on 160 and stomp my b*tt in a
pileup.

(Then you can say you beat K2AV at his own game. Except it will be me,
sitting in front of my K3, grinning ear-to-ear, thinking, "now THAT's a
signal".)

Guy.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Phil, QRZ tells me that you live in Richardson TX, north of Dallas.
>
> You have some of the best ground conductivity in the nation! Don't try this
> in most other
> places.
>
> On 3/23/2011 9:25 AM, Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:
> > "If you CAN'T do radials right, DON'T do grounded verticals. As simple
> as that."
> >
> > I disagree. Licensed in 1964 at 15, I operated with a 4BTV through high
> school and
> > college with just a ground rod. I didn't know any better, but had lots
> of fun - even
> > with a Knightkit T60 transmitter. Was it efficient? Nope. But I sure
> enjoyed the
> > hobby during that time. Of course, I later learned that I could have had
> even MORE fun
> > if I'd had radials.
> >
> > Phil - AD5X
>
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

gm3sek

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical

In reply to this post by Phil Salas

Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:

>"If you CAN'T do radials right, DON'T do grounded verticals. As simple
>as that."
>
>I disagree. Licensed in 1964 at 15, I operated with a 4BTV through
>high school and college with just a ground rod. I didn't know any
>better, but had lots of fun - even with a Knightkit T60 transmitter.
>Was it efficient? Nope. But I sure enjoyed the hobby during that
>time. Of course, I later learned that I could have had even MORE fun
>if I'd had radials.
>
>Phil - AD5X

Fun, yes... but do we really want every newcomer to start out in the
same ignorance as we did?

They can have even more fun if they're helped to start out the right
way, right now, instead of taking 50 years over it.

--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical [End of thread pt2]

Administrator

This thread was closed about 2 hrs ago.

73, Eric
List moderator

On 3/23/2011 12:29 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

> Phil& Debbie Salas wrote:
>> "If you CAN'T do radials right, DON'T do grounded verticals. As simple
>> as that."
>>
>> I disagree. Licensed in 1964 at 15, I operated with a 4BTV through
>> high school and college with just a ground rod. I didn't know any
>> better, but had lots of fun - even with a Knightkit T60 transmitter.
>> Was it efficient? Nope. But I sure enjoyed the hobby during that
>> time. Of course, I later learned that I could have had even MORE fun
>> if I'd had radials.
>>
>> Phil - AD5X
>
> Fun, yes... but do we really want every newcomer to start out in the
> same ignorance as we did?
>
> They can have even more fun if they're helped to start out the right
> way, right now, instead of taking 50 years over it.
>
>
>

Vic K2VCO

Re: K3 & S9 43' Vertical

In reply to this post by Phil Salas

Haha, I was afraid of something like that. MD has pretty average conductivity, 4
umho/meter, compared to the 30 that is found in northeast Texas. When I was a kid I lived
on Long Island, a sandbar where the value is 0.5. I had a disastrous experiment with a
vertical and poor ground system there.

On 3/23/2011 10:17 AM, Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html