Elecraft › [K3]

K3 and N1MM

Classic

List

Threaded

12 messages Options

Richard Meilstrup

K3 and N1MM

Thanks a lot to N6ML, N0SS, and N4XD for advice. I have now N1MM running
beautifully on CW, and the same goes for the CW-machine in Logger32.
Rick, OZ5RM
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brett Howard

Re: K3 and N1MM

Is there a way to use the internal keyer in the K3 with N1MM or do you
have to use the DTR/RTS in the key jack method. I run windows in a
virtual machine under linux which makes the Windows timing even more
grossly disgusting for keying. It certainly seems like the K3s keyer
should be able to work a lot like a win keyer and just have everything
in one box but I've been unable to pull it off. Not sure if its a
problem with the virtual machine setup or what...

So should I be able to get that to work fairly easily if I wasn't
running the virtual machine? If so I just need to know that and I'll
find the problem in the UART passthrough in Linux... Or should I go and
buy this lil kit:
http://k1el.tripod.com/WKUSB.html

(or is there a better kit that I should be looking at?)

~Brett

On Fri, 2009-07-17 at 19:52 +0200, Richard Meilstrup wrote:

> Thanks a lot to N6ML, N0SS, and N4XD for advice. I have now N1MM running
> beautifully on CW, and the same goes for the CW-machine in Logger32.
> Rick, OZ5RM
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 and N1MM

> Is there a way to use the internal keyer in the K3 with N1MM
> or do you have to use the DTR/RTS in the key jack method.

You can use the internal keyer with paddles but N1MM Logger
does not support the "KS;" keyer command for sending arbitrary
text. If your messages were less than 24 characters, you
could probably finesse the thing by using {CATASC ...} commands
to send short strings or to recall the K3's built in memories.

> Or should I go and buy this lil kit:
> http://k1el.tripod.com/WKUSB.html

The K1EL WKUSB or Serial WinKeyer 2:
http://k1el.tripod.com/WK2Serial.html
are the best way to handle CW with any software package
that includes WinKey support. You get CPU independent
CW plus paddle input that integrates with the software
(much like paddle input was integrated with TRlog).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brett Howard
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 9:45 PM
> To: Richard Meilstrup
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and N1MM
>
>
> Is there a way to use the internal keyer in the K3 with N1MM
> or do you have to use the DTR/RTS in the key jack method. I
> run windows in a virtual machine under linux which makes the
> Windows timing even more grossly disgusting for keying. It
> certainly seems like the K3s keyer should be able to work a
> lot like a win keyer and just have everything in one box but
> I've been unable to pull it off. Not sure if its a problem
> with the virtual machine setup or what...
>
> So should I be able to get that to work fairly easily if I
> wasn't running the virtual machine? If so I just need to
> know that and I'll find the problem in the UART passthrough
> in Linux... Or should I go and buy this lil kit:
> http://k1el.tripod.com/WKUSB.html
>
> (or is there a better kit that I should be looking at?)
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Fri, 2009-07-17 at 19:52 +0200, Richard Meilstrup wrote:
> > Thanks a lot to N6ML, N0SS, and N4XD for advice. I have now N1MM
> > running beautifully on CW, and the same goes for the CW-machine in
> > Logger32. Rick, OZ5RM

Richard Ferch

Re: K3 and N1MM

In reply to this post by Richard Meilstrup

Brett Howard asked:

> Is there a way to use the internal keyer in the K3 with N1MM or do you
> have to use the DTR/RTS in the key jack method?

N1MM Logger does not support the KY software command that makes use of
the K3's internal tuner. I believe there are implementation reasons for
this limitation, in which case it might not be an easy limitation to remove.

You can use:
- DTR or RTS on the radio control port without any additional hardware
(with some limitations that are described in the N1MM Logger
documentation);
- DTR or RTS on any other serial port with a keying transistor to the
K3's key jack; or
- parallel port keying to the K3's key jack (I don't know whether this
can be made to work under Linux, though - it requires the DLPORTIO
driver under WinXP).
All of these can be affected by Windows timing problems.

The standard recommended solution is the WKUSB (or a serial WinKeyer),
which unfortunately requires an extra box.

73,
Rich VE3KI
K3 #1595
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Julian, G4ILO

Re: K3 and N1MM

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote

You can use the internal keyer with paddles but N1MM Logger
does not support the "KS;" keyer command for sending arbitrary
text.

Actually it's the KY...; command. KS sets the speed. :)

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

Brett Howard

Re: K3 and N1MM

Boy it sure seems like N1MM should be able to support the keyer in the
k3 and allow you to set the speed and probably also read the speed that
is set by the knob just like the K1EL unit. Then the whole thing would
fit in one box with paddle break in and all... Just seems like it
should be able to be supported. Would be even cooler if the K3 could
support the K1EL protocol but thats probably a bit rude to do to K1EL.

Anyway just thinking out loud...

~Brett

On Sat, 2009-07-18 at 03:22 -0700, Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
> > You can use the internal keyer with paddles but N1MM Logger
> > does not support the "KS;" keyer command for sending arbitrary
> > text.
> >
> Actually it's the KY...; command. KS sets the speed. :)
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>

Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 and N1MM

Wouldn't the trick be to get the separate K3 paddle to initiate a signal
back to the computer over the cat cable so that paddle input would stop a
computer generated sequence in its tracks?

That would mean that K3 would always generate an unsolicited "paddle-active"
signal output outbound on CAT toward the computer, and whatever was on the
computer side of CAT cable would have to be looking for it and respond by
halting any earlier ongoing response and killing anything leftover in a
buffer.

That's not just one man's code. But agree it would be nice, because paddle
could always be hooked up to K3, casual or contest.

73, Guy.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Boy it sure seems like N1MM should be able to support the keyer in the
> k3 and allow you to set the speed and probably also read the speed that
> is set by the knob just like the K1EL unit. Then the whole thing would
> fit in one box with paddle break in and all... Just seems like it
> should be able to be supported. Would be even cooler if the K3 could
> support the K1EL protocol but thats probably a bit rude to do to K1EL.
>
> Anyway just thinking out loud...
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Sat, 2009-07-18 at 03:22 -0700, Julian, G4ILO wrote:
> >
> >
> > Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
> > > You can use the internal keyer with paddles but N1MM Logger
> > > does not support the "KS;" keyer command for sending arbitrary
> > > text.
> > >
> > Actually it's the KY...; command. KS sets the speed. :)
> >
> > -----
> > Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> > * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> > * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> > * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
73, Guy K2AV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 and N1MM

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

> Boy it sure seems like N1MM should be able to support the
> keyer in the k3 and allow you to set the speed and probably
> also read the speed that is set by the knob just like the
> K1EL unit.

The N1MM developers have spoken to this many times: 1) "KY;"
and "KS;" are not broadly applicable (only Kenwood, Elecraft
and "new" Yaesu rigs support it), 2) the implementation is not
consistent (Yaesu only sends stored messages), 3) there is
no "edit" capability, and 4) there is no "message finished"
status.

The benefits to be gained from supporting the "KY;" and
"KS;" commands simply do not, in their collective opinion,
justify the effort involved in a major rewrite of the CW
interface code and making the CW interface code transceiver
dependent (it is currently transceiver agnostic). This is
particularly true when the K1EL serial WinKeyer 2 kit is
available for less than $40 and WinKey is available in
products from several manufacturers.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brett Howard
> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 3:16 PM
> To: Julian, G4ILO
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and N1MM
>
>
> Boy it sure seems like N1MM should be able to support the
> keyer in the k3 and allow you to set the speed and probably
> also read the speed that is set by the knob just like the
> K1EL unit. Then the whole thing would fit in one box with
> paddle break in and all... Just seems like it should be able
> to be supported. Would be even cooler if the K3 could
> support the K1EL protocol but thats probably a bit rude to do
> to K1EL.
>
> Anyway just thinking out loud...
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Sat, 2009-07-18 at 03:22 -0700, Julian, G4ILO wrote:
> >
> >
> > Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
> > > You can use the internal keyer with paddles but N1MM Logger
> > > does not support the "KS;" keyer command for sending arbitrary
> > > text.
> > >
> > Actually it's the KY...; command. KS sets the speed. :)
> >
> > -----
> > Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> > * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> > * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> > * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bob-270

Re: K3 and N1MM

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

I'm going a little out on a limb here as I don't know if the K3 has the
same feature as the K2 does.

The K2 acts as it is in a straight key mode if both Paddle lines are
pulled down at the same time.
I use a old Brown Brothers that has a straight key and paddle on it.
The straight key has two diodes
to "and" the lines so it can be used or the K2 internal keyer. Also
using a Radio Shack Y connector and
diodes "And"'ing also lets the K1EL USB keyer key the K2. In addition
the K24U program
can trigger the K2 memories. The K1EL also has its own paddle. Any can
be used at any time. The only
exception to that is that only one program can use the serial port to
the K2.

That has not been a problem for me but if it were possibly a work around
could be with one of the virtual
serial port emulators. So far I've been happy with this flexibility.

73,
Bob K2TK

Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> Wouldn't the trick be to get the separate K3 paddle to initiate a signal
> back to the computer over the cat cable so that paddle input would stop a
> computer generated sequence in its tracks?
>
> That would mean that K3 would always generate an unsolicited "paddle-active"
> signal output outbound on CAT toward the computer, and whatever was on the
> computer side of CAT cable would have to be looking for it and respond by
> halting any earlier ongoing response and killing anything leftover in a
> buffer.
>
> That's not just one man's code. But agree it would be nice, because paddle
> could always be hooked up to K3, casual or contest.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>
>> Boy it sure seems like N1MM should be able to support the keyer in the
>> k3 and allow you to set the speed and probably also read the speed that
>> is set by the knob just like the K1EL unit. Then the whole thing would
>> fit in one box with paddle break in and all... Just seems like it
>> should be able to be supported. Would be even cooler if the K3 could
>> support the K1EL protocol but thats probably a bit rude to do to K1EL.
>>
>> Anyway just thinking out loud...
>>
>> ~Brett
>>
>> On Sat, 2009-07-18 at 03:22 -0700, Julian, G4ILO wrote:
>>
>>> Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can use the internal keyer with paddles but N1MM Logger
>>>> does not support the "KS;" keyer command for sending arbitrary
>>>> text.
>>>>
>>>>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 and N1MM

Bob,

You will not be able to use the 2 diodes (BTW, that is a logical OR
function - it is 'active low') with the K3.
The K3 has a KEY input in addition to the PADDLES input. You can
connect the paddles to the paddle input, but you will have to add a
cable to the straight key to run to the KEY jack. Yes, you should be
able to connect the straight key and the computer keying line in parallel.

73,
Don W3FPR

Bob wrote:

> I'm going a little out on a limb here as I don't know if the K3 has the
> same feature as the K2 does.
>
> The K2 acts as it is in a straight key mode if both Paddle lines are
> pulled down at the same time.
> I use a old Brown Brothers that has a straight key and paddle on it.
> The straight key has two diodes
> to "and" the lines so it can be used or the K2 internal keyer. Also
> using a Radio Shack Y connector and
> diodes "And"'ing also lets the K1EL USB keyer key the K2. In addition
> the K24U program
> can trigger the K2 memories. The K1EL also has its own paddle. Any can
> be used at any time. The only
> exception to that is that only one program can use the serial port to
> the K2.
>
> That has not been a problem for me but if it were possibly a work around
> could be with one of the virtual
> serial port emulators. So far I've been happy with this flexibility.
>
> 73,
> Bob K2TK
>
>

Bob-270

Re: K3 and N1MM

Hi Don,

OK, I was not sure about the K3 but threw it out there as
food for though. Maybe my choice of terminology was wrong but I'm
pulling both the Dash "and" Dot lines low through the diodes with the
straight key contact and do the same with the K1EL. The K2 does the
auto-detect. It is active low with the key so maybe NAND ? Or, and
I'm not trying to be facetious, did you mean that the different devices
are logical OR'ed . I actually have 4 devices that can key the K2 in
parallel. I didn't see any need to diode isolate them, only to combine
the separate dot & dash lines for single line keying.

Works fine, but explanation may be lacking.

73,
Bob
K2TK

Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Bob,
>
> You will not be able to use the 2 diodes (BTW, that is a logical OR
> function - it is 'active low') with the K3.
> The K3 has a KEY input in addition to the PADDLES input. You can
> connect the paddles to the paddle input, but you will have to add a
> cable to the straight key to run to the KEY jack. Yes, you should be
> able to connect the straight key and the computer keying line in
> parallel.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Bob wrote:
>> I'm going a little out on a limb here as I don't know if the K3 has
>> the same feature as the K2 does.
>>
>> The K2 acts as it is in a straight key mode if both Paddle lines are
>> pulled down at the same time.
>> I use a old Brown Brothers that has a straight key and paddle on it.
>> The straight key has two diodes
>> to "and" the lines so it can be used or the K2 internal keyer. Also
>> using a Radio Shack Y connector and
>> diodes "And"'ing also lets the K1EL USB keyer key the K2. In
>> addition the K24U program
>> can trigger the K2 memories. The K1EL also has its own paddle. Any
>> can be used at any time. The only
>> exception to that is that only one program can use the serial port to
>> the K2.
>>
>> That has not been a problem for me but if it were possibly a work
>> around could be with one of the virtual
>> serial port emulators. So far I've been happy with this flexibility.
>>
>> 73,
>> Bob K2TK
>>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 and N1MM

Bob,

Not to worry about the logical function, different minds think of it in
different ways. My thinking is that an active low on either the dot OR
dash contacts makes the output low. That goes back to my old TTL
thinking of wire ORs to extend the OR function. But if you use an OR
function "upside down", it becomes an AND function. Strictly semantics
and mindsets within the logic world.

You will be able to parallel you straight key and external keyer and
computer keying connections together without isolating diodes as long as
one of the external devices does not interfere with another one - the K3
will not care as long as it sees a low level on the key input.
With the K3 and the paddle input, it is different than the K2. If you
intend to use your paddles with the internal K3 keyer, you will have to
plug the paddles into the PADDLE jack on the back of the K3. That is
the only difference.

73,
Don W3FPR

Bob wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> OK, I was not sure about the K3 but threw it out there as
> food for though. Maybe my choice of terminology was wrong but I'm
> pulling both the Dash "and" Dot lines low through the diodes with the
> straight key contact and do the same with the K1EL. The K2 does the
> auto-detect. It is active low with the key so maybe NAND ? Or, and
> I'm not trying to be facetious, did you mean that the different devices
> are logical OR'ed . I actually have 4 devices that can key the K2 in
> parallel. I didn't see any need to diode isolate them, only to combine
> the separate dot & dash lines for single line keying.
>
> Works fine, but explanation may be lacking.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K2TK
>
> Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> You will not be able to use the 2 diodes (BTW, that is a logical OR
>> function - it is 'active low') with the K3.
>> The K3 has a KEY input in addition to the PADDLES input. You can
>> connect the paddles to the paddle input, but you will have to add a
>> cable to the straight key to run to the KEY jack. Yes, you should be
>> able to connect the straight key and the computer keying line in
>> parallel.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Bob wrote:
>>
>>> I'm going a little out on a limb here as I don't know if the K3 has
>>> the same feature as the K2 does.
>>>
>>> The K2 acts as it is in a straight key mode if both Paddle lines are
>>> pulled down at the same time.
>>> I use a old Brown Brothers that has a straight key and paddle on it.
>>> The straight key has two diodes
>>> to "and" the lines so it can be used or the K2 internal keyer. Also
>>> using a Radio Shack Y connector and
>>> diodes "And"'ing also lets the K1EL USB keyer key the K2. In
>>> addition the K24U program
>>> can trigger the K2 memories. The K1EL also has its own paddle. Any
>>> can be used at any time. The only
>>> exception to that is that only one program can use the serial port to
>>> the K2.
>>>
>>> That has not been a problem for me but if it were possibly a work
>>> around could be with one of the virtual
>>> serial port emulators. So far I've been happy with this flexibility.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Bob K2TK
>>>
>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.19/2245 - Release Date: 07/18/09 05:57:00
>
>