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K3 and SM-220

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Martin-2

K3 and SM-220

Elecrafters,
i like to interface a Kenwood SM220 Scope to a K3.
There is a Pan Display Option installed, but there is no hint
if it is the BS-5 (3.3Mhz IF) or BS-8 (8.83Mhz IF).
How can i determine which Pan Display i have?
I got this scope from a SK w/o any manuals.
If it is the 8Mhz IF, can i retune it AND will it work with a K3 /
KXV3A ?

--

73,
Martin DM4iM
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Jim Wiley-2

Re: K3 and SM-220

Open up he SM-220. The band-scope option is in a small metal box toward
the rear of the scope. It will be marked either BS-8 or BS-5, for 8
MHz or 5 MHz respectively. It may be possible to retune the unit to the
desired operating range, although it may be necessary to juggle some
component sizes. A schematic can be obtained on line I think. Note: if
it is a BS-5, the only difference between the units is the oscillator
coil and a few components. Replacing the appropriate parts with those
for the alternate frequency range will make the switch. Since these are
"discrete" parts, the swap should be straightforward. The 8 MHz version
may have enough tuning range to shift over the K3 IF without changing
parts. As supplied, the BS-8 is set for use with an 8.83 MHz IF, if I
remember correctly. The band-scope print is part of the main SM-220
manual. .

- Jim, KL7CC

DM4iM wrote:

> Elecrafters,
> i like to interface a Kenwood SM220 Scope to a K3.
> There is a Pan Display Option installed, but there is no hint
> if it is the BS-5 (3.3Mhz IF) or BS-8 (8.83Mhz IF).
> How can i determine which Pan Display i have?
> I got this scope from a SK w/o any manuals.
> If it is the 8Mhz IF, can i retune it AND will it work with a K3 /
> KXV3A ?
>
>
>

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N5GE

Re: K3 and SM-220

On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:58:20 -0800, Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Hello Jim.

I have a Kenwood SM-230. I wonder if the same holds true for that
model?

Tom Childers, N5GE
Licensed since 1976
QCWA Life Member 35102

[hidden email]
http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net

>Open up he SM-220. The band-scope option is in a small metal box toward
>the rear of the scope. It will be marked either BS-8 or BS-5, for 8
>MHz or 5 MHz respectively. It may be possible to retune the unit to the
>desired operating range, although it may be necessary to juggle some
>component sizes. A schematic can be obtained on line I think. Note: if
>it is a BS-5, the only difference between the units is the oscillator
>coil and a few components. Replacing the appropriate parts with those
>for the alternate frequency range will make the switch. Since these are
>"discrete" parts, the swap should be straightforward. The 8 MHz version
>may have enough tuning range to shift over the K3 IF without changing
>parts. As supplied, the BS-8 is set for use with an 8.83 MHz IF, if I
>remember correctly. The band-scope print is part of the main SM-220
>manual. .
>
>
>- Jim, KL7CC
>
>
>DM4iM wrote:
>> Elecrafters,
>> i like to interface a Kenwood SM220 Scope to a K3.
>> There is a Pan Display Option installed, but there is no hint
>> if it is the BS-5 (3.3Mhz IF) or BS-8 (8.83Mhz IF).
>> How can i determine which Pan Display i have?
>> I got this scope from a SK w/o any manuals.
>> If it is the 8Mhz IF, can i retune it AND will it work with a K3 /
>> KXV3A ?
>>
>>
>>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Jack Smith-6

Re: K3 and SM-220

VE7GZ tried using an SM220 with his K3 a couple years ago - some posts on the subject should be in the reflector archives.

Although it isn't hard to move the center frequency, the SM220 is not sensitive enough to provide a useful display with the K3 from what he said. Considerable external gain is required from his reports.

Jack K8ZOA

On 10/10/2010 6:10 PM, Radio Amateur N5GE wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:58:20 -0800, Jim Wiley<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Jim.
>
> I have a Kenwood SM-230. I wonder if the same holds true for that
> model?
>
> Tom Childers, N5GE
> Licensed since 1976
> QCWA Life Member 35102
>
> [hidden email]
> http://www.n5ge.com
> http://www.swotrc.net
>
>> Open up he SM-220. The band-scope option is in a small metal box toward
>> the rear of the scope. It will be marked either BS-8 or BS-5, for 8
>> MHz or 5 MHz respectively. It may be possible to retune the unit to the
>> desired operating range, although it may be necessary to juggle some
>> component sizes. A schematic can be obtained on line I think. Note: if
>> it is a BS-5, the only difference between the units is the oscillator
>> coil and a few components. Replacing the appropriate parts with those
>> for the alternate frequency range will make the switch. Since these are
>> "discrete" parts, the swap should be straightforward. The 8 MHz version
>> may have enough tuning range to shift over the K3 IF without changing
>> parts. As supplied, the BS-8 is set for use with an 8.83 MHz IF, if I
>> remember correctly. The band-scope print is part of the main SM-220
>> manual. .
>>
>>
>> - Jim, KL7CC
>>
>>
>> DM4iM wrote:
>>> Elecrafters,
>>> i like to interface a Kenwood SM220 Scope to a K3.
>>> There is a Pan Display Option installed, but there is no hint
>>> if it is the BS-5 (3.3Mhz IF) or BS-8 (8.83Mhz IF).
>>> How can i determine which Pan Display i have?
>>> I got this scope from a SK w/o any manuals.
>>> If it is the 8Mhz IF, can i retune it AND will it work with a K3 /
>>> KXV3A ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Dale Parfitt-3

F.S. KPA3

As my 10W K3 drives my SPE amplifier quite well as is, I have decided to
sell my as-new KPA3 100W amp kit.
$410 includes UPS shipping.
Payment via USPS money order only.

Tnx,
Dale W4OP

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Jim Wiley-2

Re: K3 and SM-220

In reply to this post by N5GE

Don't know. Never had occasion to use or look inside a SM-230. My
experience is limited to the SM-220. Perhaps someone else on this list
has the info you need. However, all that being said, it would not
surprise me if the band-scope option used the same module for both
units. If the SM-230 used a module called the BS-8, it is possibly the
same unit. If the part number is different, then some more examination
would be needed.

Keep in mind, however, how the band scope works. It is basically an
electronically tuned receiver that derives its tuning voltage from the
horizontal sweep oscillator in the band scope - which at root is
basically an oscilloscope. The sawtooth signal from the sweep
oscillator drives a varactor (voltage variable capacitor) diode
connected to the tank circuit of the BS-8 oscillator. The oscillator
then sweeps back and forth around the 8.83 MHz IF, either plus or minus
20 kHz or plus or minus 100 kHz, depending on the bandwidth selected.
The BS-8 oscillator signal is mixed with the 8.83 MHz IF signal from the
radio, resulting in a new IF (for the band scope only) that is amplified
and detected, then sent to the SM-220 (or SM-230) vertical amplifier.
The resulting varying amplitude signal then corresponds approximately
to the level of any signals present , which then appear as "pips" on
the spectrum-display screen. Most all spectrum analyzers work this way,
at least the "conventional" analog types. The Elecraft P3 is probably
rather different in how the detection and display process is
implemented, but remember it has access to a whole box full of software
tools that the older SM-220 and SM-230 do not have.

In order for the SM-220 or SM-230 to display signals from the K3, or any
other transceiver, all that is needed is for the band-scope oscillator
to be able to sweep back and forth within the desired offset from the
transceiver IF, and for the band-scope unit's "front end" to be able to
tune to the desired transceiver IF. Everything else from that point on
is pretty much independent of what radio it is connected to . Some
band-scope adaptors don't even have a tunable RF front end, instead they
rely on the transceiver's signal processing circuits to provide the
needed selectivity.

Spectrum analyzers and band scopes are essentially the same animal. A
basic display is easy. The hard part comes when you want precise sweep
linearity, exact amplitude calibration, and the ability to separate and
measure "close in" components of modulation products. Those last items
are the reason that -hp- (Agilent), and other high end test equipment
manufacturers can command prices of $15K to $50K for their instruments.
For example, consider the measurement of a 1.2 GHz FM signal from a data
transceiver that I work on from time to time. I happen to have a
Tektronix spectrum analyzer that will display discrete modulation
sidebands that are only 50 Hz apart, and measure their exact amplitude
and frequency offset from the main carrier. It is however, rather
bigger than a breadbox, and it costs a bit more than the SM-220.

- Jim, KL7CC

Radio Amateur N5GE wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:58:20 -0800, Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Jim.
>
> I have a Kenwood SM-230. I wonder if the same holds true for that
> model?
>
> Tom Childers, N5GE
> Licensed since 1976
> QCWA Life Member 35102
>
> [hidden email]
> http://www.n5ge.com
> http://www.swotrc.net
>
>
>> Open up he SM-220. The band-scope option is in a small metal box toward
>> the rear of the scope. It will be marked either BS-8 or BS-5, for 8
>> MHz or 5 MHz respectively. It may be possible to retune the unit to the
>> desired operating range, although it may be necessary to juggle some
>> component sizes. A schematic can be obtained on line I think. Note: if
>> it is a BS-5, the only difference between the units is the oscillator
>> coil and a few components. Replacing the appropriate parts with those
>> for the alternate frequency range will make the switch. Since these are
>> "discrete" parts, the swap should be straightforward. The 8 MHz version
>> may have enough tuning range to shift over the K3 IF without changing
>> parts. As supplied, the BS-8 is set for use with an 8.83 MHz IF, if I
>> remember correctly. The band-scope print is part of the main SM-220
>> manual. .
>>
>>
>> - Jim, KL7CC
>>
>>
>> DM4iM wrote:
>>
>>> Elecrafters,
>>> i like to interface a Kenwood SM220 Scope to a K3.
>>> There is a Pan Display Option installed, but there is no hint
>>> if it is the BS-5 (3.3Mhz IF) or BS-8 (8.83Mhz IF).
>>> How can i determine which Pan Display i have?
>>> I got this scope from a SK w/o any manuals.
>>> If it is the 8Mhz IF, can i retune it AND will it work with a K3 /
>>> KXV3A ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
>

N5GE

Re: K3 and SM-220

On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:02:10 -0800, Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Thanks, Jim.

I suspect the SM-220 and SM-230 are pretty much the same.

I've had this SM-230 since I bought a TS-950s in the mid 80s and have
used Panadapters of one kind or another since then.

I went to the Belton, TX ham fest last weekend and saw an SM-230 for
sale. It was mint and the guy wanted $600 for it. Now if I can sell
mine for that I can get a P3 ;o)

Once again, thanks for the comments.

73,

Tom, N5GE

K3 #806 with SUB RX, PR6,
KRC2 and K144XV
K3 #1055 with PR6 and XV432
W1, 2 W2's and other small kits

QCWA Life Member 35102

[hidden email]
http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net

>Don't know. Never had occasion to use or look inside a SM-230. My
>experience is limited to the SM-220. Perhaps someone else on this list
>has the info you need. However, all that being said, it would not
>surprise me if the band-scope option used the same module for both
>units. If the SM-230 used a module called the BS-8, it is possibly the
>same unit. If the part number is different, then some more examination
>would be needed.
>
>
>Keep in mind, however, how the band scope works. It is basically an
>electronically tuned receiver that derives its tuning voltage from the
>horizontal sweep oscillator in the band scope - which at root is
>basically an oscilloscope. The sawtooth signal from the sweep
>oscillator drives a varactor (voltage variable capacitor) diode
>connected to the tank circuit of the BS-8 oscillator. The oscillator
>then sweeps back and forth around the 8.83 MHz IF, either plus or minus
>20 kHz or plus or minus 100 kHz, depending on the bandwidth selected.
>The BS-8 oscillator signal is mixed with the 8.83 MHz IF signal from the
>radio, resulting in a new IF (for the band scope only) that is amplified
>and detected, then sent to the SM-220 (or SM-230) vertical amplifier.
>The resulting varying amplitude signal then corresponds approximately
>to the level of any signals present , which then appear as "pips" on
>the spectrum-display screen. Most all spectrum analyzers work this way,
>at least the "conventional" analog types. The Elecraft P3 is probably
>rather different in how the detection and display process is
>implemented, but remember it has access to a whole box full of software
>tools that the older SM-220 and SM-230 do not have.
>
>
>In order for the SM-220 or SM-230 to display signals from the K3, or any
>other transceiver, all that is needed is for the band-scope oscillator
>to be able to sweep back and forth within the desired offset from the
>transceiver IF, and for the band-scope unit's "front end" to be able to
>tune to the desired transceiver IF. Everything else from that point on
>is pretty much independent of what radio it is connected to . Some
>band-scope adaptors don't even have a tunable RF front end, instead they
>rely on the transceiver's signal processing circuits to provide the
>needed selectivity.
>
>
>Spectrum analyzers and band scopes are essentially the same animal. A
>basic display is easy. The hard part comes when you want precise sweep
>linearity, exact amplitude calibration, and the ability to separate and
>measure "close in" components of modulation products. Those last items
>are the reason that -hp- (Agilent), and other high end test equipment
>manufacturers can command prices of $15K to $50K for their instruments.
>For example, consider the measurement of a 1.2 GHz FM signal from a data
>transceiver that I work on from time to time. I happen to have a
>Tektronix spectrum analyzer that will display discrete modulation
>sidebands that are only 50 Hz apart, and measure their exact amplitude
>and frequency offset from the main carrier. It is however, rather
>bigger than a breadbox, and it costs a bit more than the SM-220.
>
>
>- Jim, KL7CC
>
>
>
>Radio Amateur N5GE wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:58:20 -0800, Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Jim.
>>
>> I have a Kenwood SM-230. I wonder if the same holds true for that
>> model?
>>
>> Tom Childers, N5GE
>> Licensed since 1976
>> QCWA Life Member 35102
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.n5ge.com
>> http://www.swotrc.net
>>
>>
>>> Open up he SM-220. The band-scope option is in a small metal box toward
>>> the rear of the scope. It will be marked either BS-8 or BS-5, for 8
>>> MHz or 5 MHz respectively. It may be possible to retune the unit to the
>>> desired operating range, although it may be necessary to juggle some
>>> component sizes. A schematic can be obtained on line I think. Note: if
>>> it is a BS-5, the only difference between the units is the oscillator
>>> coil and a few components. Replacing the appropriate parts with those
>>> for the alternate frequency range will make the switch. Since these are
>>> "discrete" parts, the swap should be straightforward. The 8 MHz version
>>> may have enough tuning range to shift over the K3 IF without changing
>>> parts. As supplied, the BS-8 is set for use with an 8.83 MHz IF, if I
>>> remember correctly. The band-scope print is part of the main SM-220
>>> manual. .
>>>
>>>
>>> - Jim, KL7CC
>>>
>>>
>>> DM4iM wrote:
>>>
>>>> Elecrafters,
>>>> i like to interface a Kenwood SM220 Scope to a K3.
>>>> There is a Pan Display Option installed, but there is no hint
>>>> if it is the BS-5 (3.3Mhz IF) or BS-8 (8.83Mhz IF).
>>>> How can i determine which Pan Display i have?
>>>> I got this scope from a SK w/o any manuals.
>>>> If it is the 8Mhz IF, can i retune it AND will it work with a K3 /
>>>> KXV3A ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE