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K3 and inverter generators

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Ramon Tristani-2

K3 and inverter generators

Banned User

I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio? Comments appreciated.

Ramon, NQ9V

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Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 and inverter generators

Ramon,
Your K3 doesn't care. It runs off the 12 volt power supply that will
plug into the generator. There shouldn't be a problem, though. We used a
Honda 1K during field day which is of the type and had no problems. I
really expect that you should be OK. However, if you are concerned, just
run the K3 off a 12 volt battery.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Ramon Tristani" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 8/10/2016 10:46:55 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and inverter generators

>I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for
>emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the
>Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out
>there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio?
>Comments appreciated.
>
>Ramon, NQ9V
>
>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Ramon Tristani-2

On Wed,8/10/2016 7:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
> I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio?

Everything I've seen at Harbor Freight is off-shore made junk, and the
driving force is CHEAP. I would expect any they sell with electronics to
be a noisy pig.

73, Jim K9YC

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Bob N3MNT

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Barry K3NDM

I recommend adding a 12V Battery to the system to provide a buffer. This will be of more important if running 100W CW.

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Barry K3NDM

On Wed,8/10/2016 9:50 AM, Barry LaZar wrote:
> Your K3 doesn't care.

The issue is not compatibility with the radio. Electronic devices,
especially those handling power, produce RF noise that is radiated both
by internal wiring and by external wiring (like the power cable that we
plug into them). That RF trash is picked up by our antennas, just like
any other RF energy. Even the very good Honda EU200oi generator produces
moderately strong RF noise, and requires a good common mode choke on the
power cable that plugs into it. These issues are addressed in the link
below, which is the slides for a talk I gave on noise in portable setups
to the Northern California Contest Club several years ago.

http://nccc.cc/pdf/CQP-RFI2013-2.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Ramon Tristani-2

Ramon,

While it should do the job for producing AC for your power supply, I
wonder about the "Inverter" part of it. That tells me that the native
generator produces DC and is then run through an inverter to give AC output.
Some inverters do produce RF noise, so I would want to try it out first
to see just how much RF Hash it produces on the ham bands of interest.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/10/2016 10:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio? Comments appreciated.
>

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Greg Troxel-2

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Ramon Tristani-2

Ramon Tristani <[hidden email]> writes:

> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for
> emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying
> the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does
> anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to
> power a radio? Comments appreciated.

When I saw the subject, I was going to say that at Field Day this year,
I observed a K3/P3 with external monitor and computer, running off a
Honda EU2000 powering the monitor/computer and I think an Astron RS35,
plus a west mountain radio PG40S with a 35 Ah AGM battery in a box.
This worked very well; not only did the generator run well for the
entire FD period but the battery/PG40S let the K3/P3 operate over 1
unplanned and a half-dozen planned shutdowns for refueling.

I am skeptical of generators from Harbor Freight, but that is perhaps
unwarranted. My club used 3 different EU2000s (for 2 K3 stations and a
non-Elecraft station :-(), and had a good experience with them this year
as in past years. They do cost $900 to $1000 though -- but if I had a
K3, even a barebones one, I would really try hard to get a quality
generator for it rather than risking iffy power.

The Honda EU2000 is a real motor with separate oil, rather than running
on 2-cycle mix, but I see the one you pointed to is also. The Honda is
also pretty quiet as these things go and clearly very nicely built. I
am 99% sure the Honda is also legal in California, which the Harbor
Freight one seems not to be.

QST had a review article several years ago about these sorts of
generators.

73 de n1dam
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Bob N3MNT

Or a FARAD cap....

Mel, K6KBE

From: Bob N3MNT <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and inverter generators

I recommend adding a 12V Battery to the system to provide a buffer. This
will be of more important if running 100W CW.

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-and-inverter-generators-tp7621460p7621465.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Ramon Tristani-2

Re: K3 and inverter generators

Banned User

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim:

That is a great article on suppressing noise. I really appreciate it.

Ramon

> On Aug 10, 2016, at 13:04, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed,8/10/2016 9:50 AM, Barry LaZar wrote:
>> Your K3 doesn't care.
>
> The issue is not compatibility with the radio. Electronic devices, especially those handling power, produce RF noise that is radiated both by internal wiring and by external wiring (like the power cable that we plug into them). That RF trash is picked up by our antennas, just like any other RF energy. Even the very good Honda EU200oi generator produces moderately strong RF noise, and requires a good common mode choke on the power cable that plugs into it. These issues are addressed in the link below, which is the slides for a talk I gave on noise in portable setups to the Northern California Contest Club several years ago.
>
> http://nccc.cc/pdf/CQP-RFI2013-2.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Ramon Tristani-2

Ramon,

If you have some mechanical skills, you can build your own 13.8 volt
generator.
A gasoline engine driving an automotive alternator which in turn feeds a
battery. Put it all on a small wagon and you don't need the power
supply. It will not be as compact as a portable generator, but would
not be a producer of RF hash from the inverter. You may find you need a
few capacitors to kill any alternator whine. This is essentially the
same as an automotive battery charging system.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/10/2016 10:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:

> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio? Comments appreciated.
>
> Ramon, NQ9V
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

Dave-7

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Ramon Tristani-2

I can't comment on that specific generator. I do have some experience
with inverter generators. In one case, a Honda 1 kW used at FD, there
was no detectable noise from the inverter. But a friend has a 3.5 kW
Honda that he uses when RV'ing and it is terribly noisy.

The ARRL ran some tests on generators, June 2012 issue. They show
graphs for RFI produced by the generators tested. All look fairly noisy.

Based on their tests and my experience I would suggest that you expect
quite a bit of RFI from any inverter generator. Not all make RFI but
it appears that most do.

If it produces adequate power for your needs you might want to look at
the little 2 cycle conventional generator at HF sells. I have one of
those and it is absolutely RF quiet. Have used it for 2 FD's with no
issues. It makes higher ambient noise, but no RFI at all.

Another option would be some filtering on the AC line from the genni.
The ARRL review includes some comments on those as well. But even
after filtering the emissions were >20 dBuV. Seems to me this level
would still be heard.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4

On 8/10/16 9:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:

> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for
> emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying
> the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does
> anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to
> power a radio? Comments appreciated.
>
> Ramon, NQ9V
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Bill Frantz

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

We had a generator for our special event station in Ely, NV
which made so much noise we couldn't hear any signals. Sorry I
don't know the brand or model, but not all generators are
suitable for ham use.

Our solution was to go QRT while we recharged our batteries.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/10/16 at 9:59 AM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:

>On Wed,8/10/2016 7:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
>>I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out
>there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio?
>
>Everything I've seen at Harbor Freight is off-shore made junk,
>and the driving force is CHEAP. I would expect any they sell
>with electronics to be a noisy pig.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"After all, if the conventional wisdom was
working, the
408-356-8506 | rate of systems being compromised would be
going down,
www.pwpconsult.com | wouldn't it?" -- Marcus Ranum

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Ramon Tristani-2

Re: K3 and inverter generators

Banned User

In reply to this post by Dave-7

I want to thank everyone that provided comments and advice on my subject post. All replies have been extremely useful and my decision will not be too difficult to make now.

Ramon, NQ9V

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George Danner-2

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

We have used both the 1 Kw & 2 kw Honda inverters for field day and had only
a tiny bit of RFI.
They were both very quiet (RFI & sound wise) compared to the 5 kW
"construction" generator we used years ago.

IMHO - I'd try the Harbor Freight unit. It is 1/3 the price of a Honda and
H.F. has a good return policy (at least in Georgia). At worst you would
spend a few hours evaluating the unit.
I have no idea who actually makes the Predator unit. Several companies make
units that all look extremely similar to each other except for color & name
plate.

There are 2 main sources of RFI from an inverter type unit.
First is the spark-gap transmitter used to ignite the fuel/air mixture. We
believed that was the noise we heard from the Hondas, since it changed as
the engine speed changed.
Don't get me wrong - the noise was heard but not enough to lose any
contacts. No one complained or asked to not use the Hondas in later years.
The second source would be the inverter itself. I'd guess that will depend
on the type of inverter and care they take in filtering the AC output.

I rate Harbor Freight as a cost effective alternative, similar to MFJ.
Sometimes you don't
I do have Elecraft radios because I thought it wise to spend what they cost.

73
George

AI4VZ>>I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor
Freight sells. Does anybody out
>there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio?

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KEN-3

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Ramon Tristani-2

I have run my station on the Honda inverter generators (EU-2000 and
-3000). No problems, no issues.

Ken
3. WA8JXM

On 8/10/16 10:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio? Comments appreciated.

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K4YJJ

Re: K3 and inverter generators

I also have run my station on our Honda EU2000 with no issues.

Bill k4yjj

> On Aug 10, 2016, at 2:29 PM, Ken <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have run my station on the Honda inverter generators (EU-2000 and -3000). No problems, no issues.
>
> Ken
> 3. WA8JXM
>
> On 8/10/16 10:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
>> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio? Comments appreciated.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Cox

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by KEN-3

I believe the Predator make generators are made in China. I have friend who
purchased one, worked well but lots of RFI, so much so we fired up the Honda
EU-2000. Another problem is service, since no parts are available, you cant
get repaired anywhere in my area of the country. I have the EU-2000 and
1000 and work well, no RFI, very little audible noise and local service and
parts available if you need it. They do cost more but like the Elecraft
line up, you get what you pay for over the life of the product.... Jim
K4JAF

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 1:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and inverter generators

I have run my station on the Honda inverter generators (EU-2000 and
-3000). No problems, no issues.

Ken
3. WA8JXM

On 8/10/16 10:46 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
> I want to take my K3 out for portable use and also training for
> emergencies with my local ham friends here. I am thinking of buying the
> Predator Inverter Generator that Harbor Freight sells. Does anybody out
> there has had any experience with it while using it to power a radio?
> Comments appreciated.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by K4YJJ

On Wed,8/10/2016 12:05 PM, Bill Cobb wrote:
> I also have run my station on our Honda EU2000 with no issues.

Remember that it all depends on what your antennas are, how close they
are to the generator, and how much OTHER noise is present.

Our FD and CQP (California QSO Party) teams set up in very quiet (mile
of nowhere) locations with antennas very close to our Honda 2000i.
Without a ferrite choke on the 2000i output cable, noise on 15 and 20M
was in the range of S7-S8 on our K3s; with a filter (or without the
generator running) noise was down around S2. That's a HUGE difference --
if the S-meter is calibrated to 5 dB per S-unit, that's 30 dB, the
difference between being able to hear a 1 kW signal and a 1W signal.

Obviously, if our station is in a developed area, our noise level is
likely to a be a LOT higher, more like S6-S8, and we're far less likely
to hear that S7-S8 generator noise. Likewise if our noise level is lower
and our antenna(s) are farther from the generator.

My advice -- never accept anyone's assurances that XYZ product is quiet
without a detailed description of the antenna farm, its location with
respect to the generator, and what the noise level is without the
generator, because without that information, those assurances are next
to meaningless.

73, Jim K9YC

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Ramon Tristani-2

Re: K3 and inverter generators

Banned User

Advice well taken. Thanks.

> On Aug 10, 2016, at 15:30, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed,8/10/2016 12:05 PM, Bill Cobb wrote:
>> I also have run my station on our Honda EU2000 with no issues.
>
> Remember that it all depends on what your antennas are, how close they are to the generator, and how much OTHER noise is present.
>
> Our FD and CQP (California QSO Party) teams set up in very quiet (mile of nowhere) locations with antennas very close to our Honda 2000i. Without a ferrite choke on the 2000i output cable, noise on 15 and 20M was in the range of S7-S8 on our K3s; with a filter (or without the generator running) noise was down around S2. That's a HUGE difference -- if the S-meter is calibrated to 5 dB per S-unit, that's 30 dB, the difference between being able to hear a 1 kW signal and a 1W signal.
>
> Obviously, if our station is in a developed area, our noise level is likely to a be a LOT higher, more like S6-S8, and we're far less likely to hear that S7-S8 generator noise. Likewise if our noise level is lower and our antenna(s) are farther from the generator.
>
> My advice -- never accept anyone's assurances that XYZ product is quiet without a detailed description of the antenna farm, its location with respect to the generator, and what the noise level is without the generator, because without that information, those assurances are next to meaningless.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 and inverter generators

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim,
Thanks for the pointer to the briefing. That's good input.

We used the Honda 1000. We didn't seem to see anything on site from
that particular generator. However, we could have.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 8/10/2016 1:04:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and inverter generators

>On Wed,8/10/2016 9:50 AM, Barry LaZar wrote:
>>Your K3 doesn't care.
>
>The issue is not compatibility with the radio. Electronic devices,
>especially those handling power, produce RF noise that is radiated both
>by internal wiring and by external wiring (like the power cable that we
>plug into them). That RF trash is picked up by our antennas, just like
>any other RF energy. Even the very good Honda EU200oi generator
>produces moderately strong RF noise, and requires a good common mode
>choke on the power cable that plugs into it. These issues are addressed
>in the link below, which is the slides for a talk I gave on noise in
>portable setups to the Northern California Contest Club several years
>ago.
>
>http://nccc.cc/pdf/CQP-RFI2013-2.pdf
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>
>______________________________________________________________
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